Have we addressed our needs this offseason?

[blaze036]

I've heard Hawks fans suggest he is not especially reliable over the short to medium distance, as one might say of Shaw. Of those likely to be 'Best 22' now, we might be able to mix those two with Reid for kick in duties - kind of whoever is closest takes it, but Shawy makes me nervous in that role.

If young took it i would expect 60 metre bullets to leads towards the boundary line.

 

[NT.Thunder]

I think Shaw is usually pretty good in the kick out role, very confident which can be his undoing at times but at the same time we need that. The trouble with Shaw is that usually when he makes a mistake it's a doozy that everyone takes notice off.

Young would only be ok to kick out in the dying minutes when we need a 60m roost but not sure we should use him otherwise. Scenario for me is to have Young as the link man pushing the ball into the F50 from the wing after a HB receive.

 

[Hagla]

I think if Cloke went down we would see a bit of a structural reshuffle. Reid would move to CHF with Brown FB and Keeffe CHB. That would make the most sense in terms of structure in my mind.

Yeah, good idea, I could see that happening too. I'd love to see Reid have another crack up forward, but do you reckon he's fixed his run up for goal yet?

 

[Hardas]

If young took it i would expect 60 metre bullets to leads towards the boundary line.

Sure, it's just not ideal when everyone knows what you usually do.

As I say, a mix of two or three players might be best as Reid won't always be on the spot, and a combination might well be less predictable to the opposition too.

 

[Knightmare]

Curious on this....I know you follow these things closer than i do but I actually was under the impression that Young's delivery wasnt 1 of his stronger points. Maybe this is a furfey and has just been tarnished with that speculative brush we often wave around. I'm excited about Young and for that matter Russel as they have really only lacked consistency and if they can capture their individual best form from years gone by, i see them best 22.

In terms of addressing our needs, I think we were lucky in that apart from the ruck position we really don't have any severe deficiencies. Grabbing Grundy has sorted this out, couldnt be happier. I was happy to actually keep Wood and give him another season to see if he could find some mongrel, but after just looking at Grundy....he has more than enough mongrel and looks to be a fierce competitor...The type of young ruckman that supporters will love. I just hope that he stays injury free knowing how punishing the position can be.

I think you are right with Young. He's more of that long kicking finisher and not the playmaker a Didak/Fasolo are. Still with that finish ability on a wing whenever he gets forward of centre is a real guy you can go to which we probably didn't have enough of.

The comments on his short and medium kicking are right. A bit like Goldsack he can lack consistency hitting those targets but probably not to the same extent.

With ruckmen you know who the guy is at 24. Jamar is one of the exceptions where he figured it out on field late but with Wood since 2010 it was pretty obvious that he just didn't get it, not putting in the work and not wanting like some of the others and when things become that obvious you just have to move them on.

With Grundy if you told me before the season or even mid way through the season that we'd get him I'd be asking you if we tanked the season. It's just unreal getting a guy this good and I think he can perform better next season than Wood has playing a more physical game, with more athleticism and much better play forward of centre. I've probably talked him up too much and he isn't going to dominate right away but I certainly think he can compete which is excellent for a first year ruckman.

would it be fair to say that we should be trying our hardest to emulate Geelongs VFL setup ? I still think they are ahead of most at the moment when it comes to players coming through the system, they just seem to bring in big bodied kids who can play straight away. Stephen Wells has done a very good job.

Wells does very well. What Geelong do different is that they don't turn over their list. They have 3-4 list changes per year which in recent years has mostly been retirements. Additionally they have really nailed all their draft selections and with that they've really been able to play incredible football at VFL level despite the quantity of youth they have.

We have a very different model. We're happy to turn over 10, 15 players and are focusing on building that elite best 22 first, VFL performance second and with that turnover every year it's going to lead to poor VFL performance with the sheer number of first year players coming in. Kids will lose to men.

I don't mind our system, I would tone down the list turnover somewhat on what we are going through now and I suggest from next year we reduce it down to a more normal 4-5 senior list changes with a couple of new rookies but we're adding more experience through trade and free agency and looking to Dwyer potentially in the rookie draft we are working to add that extra quality experience to get back to that strong 2010 depth and veterain depth we once had. Now in my mind it's just about keeping our playing list together more.

 

[Jelly Bean]

I disagree.

Needs:
A key forward/relief ruck = Lynch (tick)
An outside linking midfielder = Young (tick)
A medium rebounding defender = Russell (tick)

All immediate players which address needs for next season. We look to be picking up Dwyer who would also be a mature inside midfield option.

Add to that how well we did in the draft itself and we have done incredibly well this offseason.

FWIW I think Kennedy has scope to be a centre bounce midfielder with time and development. That he doesn't have height and size I don't think will limit him. Think of players such as Kerr who are similar in height and size and perhaps stylistically that relish that role.

Yes, but for the first two, let's not forget that we lost players and then simply replaced them (with a possible slight upgrade with Lynch). Russell I will concede (assuming he plays best 22).

We didn't seem to grab a player that can make a step-change to our performance next year - only incremental a best for next year, but much stronger in subsequent yeas. I guess we are hoping for a natural improvement in the list, and the impact of the return of Luke Ball and Keeffe to drive improvement. But last year we were still quite some way behind Sydney and Hawthorn (and Carlton it seemed), and they may be getting better as well by getting Tippett (possibly) and Lake.

 

[Jelly Bean]

Port Adelaide want Colquhoun. Has really nice endurance and finds his targets by foot but penetration not huge and not that super high hurt factor type by foot as Josh Toy is so I'd be looking for something a touch better if possible. Colquhoun defensively probably isn't good enough for my liking and can get beaten 1v1 and in the air. Pace nothing special either so I'd pass.

The really elite kicks in our squad are Reid, Clarke, Young and Fasolo. Fasolo I suggest remains more of a high half forward - playmaker type who can find those inside 50 targets. Young also more damaging forward of centre and is more that wing so probably doesn't push back which in my mind leaves Clarke and Reid. Clarke still needs to establish himself as best 22 but Reid could be an option potentially if we want him to be.

No clarity who that kickout guy. Doubtful that we address this through the draft so we probably stick with Shaw for the time being.

I don't have Clarke as an elite kick - his kicks have too high a trajectory. Reid, Young, Fasolo, and Didak are probably the leaders in terms of foot skills.

I expect (if he plays seniors) Russell to take a lot of the kick-outs.

 

[joefootylover]

pure centreman-type a la Selwood, Mitchell, Kerr, J Kennedy, etc (the type that typically monsters us).

When I mean pure mids, I mean contested ball beasts with hard bodies who would sit in the centre sqaure and demolish any opposition player who even thinks about getting the ball in his zone...

One of these things is not like the others. Kerr is a pure rover with an almost supernatural understanding with his ruckman and genuine zip and skill in the middle. He is 178cm and 80kg. He is NOT a beast. Incidentally Mitchell is only 179cm, and 83kg, again, not a "beast". To compare Swan is 185cm and 92kg, and Pendles is 191cm and 91kg.

If by "beast" you are referring to attitude and not size, then we will have to wait and see how Williams, Kennedy, Josh Thomas and others go through there.

A couple of other posters, including the OP have suggested moving Beams back to the HFF. YOU ARE NUTS if you think that will happen, Beams would be just about in the top 5 midfielders in the competition in his FIRST YEAR AS A PURE MID. If you move Beams out of the midfield now you might as well start playing Cloke at full back and Jolly as a sub.

inclusive of finals,

Beams no 1 total effective disposals (542 to Mitchell's 2nd on 491)
Beams no 1 total disposals
Beams no 1 total dream team score
Beams no 1 total uncontested possessions
Beams no 2 total super coach
Beams no 6 total inside 50's
Beams no 9 total clearances
Beams no 15 total contested possessions

That makes him just about the best centre square offensive player in the league. We have Fasolo, Didak, Krakouer, Blair, Elliot, Sinclair, Kennedy, Macaffer, Goldsack and Mooney all looking for games forward of the ball, that is plenty enough to keep us from having to move Beams.

Fact is Ball will have to work his tail off to get back in the guts and stay there, and he is more than likely to push someone like Swan out, who has the capacity to play almost anywhere on the ground, than Beams.

Welcome to 2013.

 

[Jelly Bean]

Yeah, there is no way Beams is going to be moved back outside the square regularly... If anything, Ball coming back in will push Swan out to a wing / half forward. Beams, Pendles, Ball will be our top-line starting centre-square midfield.

 

[Smoky]

We needed to get rid of Wood and Trampoline Hands - so I'd say yes.

 

[Scottabe_pendles]

Sorry was a bit of disagreement regarding what I meant and what timeframe I was referring to (wrote the question in a bit of a hurry) and it wasn't meant to be an overly negative thread about where the team was at or anything and by no means was I critical of the draft - I literally know of the players what I read on BF and get to WAFL games.

My query to everyone was basically short term have we solved a few problems our team faced for 2013 (and although unlikely drafting may play a role in this to at least put pressure on older players) and long term have we gone a distance towards filling some future holes that are to be created through retirements etc.

We struggled in areas and some appear to be addressed some don't (through the trade period) -
I personally wouldn't want Young anywhere near kick-ins he reminds me of Goldsack when he was trying to do those torps a few years back - i might go a bloody long way but it doesn't actually do anything necessarily effective and I'm not sure on his decision making, but each to their own time will tell. I'm more worried about the structures of the backline and gameplan towards rectifying that problem than personel because it did seem to me there wasnt much in the way of planning it ended up just being kick it long to a pack - where Jols aging body cops a hammering from 4 blokes running through him ...

A lot of people seemed to follow and cheers for the responses some great answers there

Oh and N.B on Beams I want him to stay midfield but with an extra midfielder in the team it means he, Swan, Pendlebury and Sidebottom will spend stints in the forward line to rest - either at HF or deeper (Swan)... More opportunity to do this means a few more goal chances from these guys. Really its a great problem to have that we have so many goalkicking mids with across ground talents.

 

[Knightmare]

I don't have Clarke as an elite kick - his kicks have too high a trajectory. Reid, Young, Fasolo, and Didak are probably the leaders in terms of foot skills.

I expect (if he plays seniors) Russell to take a lot of the kick-outs.

You are right that Clarke gets height on his kick but what he does is find his targets over any distance up to 60m and get it to where they want it which no player on the list can do better with Reid his equal in this regard. The only better kick on our team in my view is Reid - because he has that same penetration and accuracy over all distances but then can make it fly quickly through the air to it's intended target. For this reason I'd love to see Clarke in an offensive role off a wing if not as a high half forward where he gets that opportunity to deliver it to those targets inside 50. It would really be something to watch and our forwards would love to be on the end of it with the way he can get it to where the player wants it like no other.

Fasolo and Didak in particular for mine stand out more for their vision and ability to find targets others wouldn't spot and this above anything else makes them really special playmakers in those high half forward roles. Both also in my mind also fit into that elite kicking category with their ability to hit targets. Didak doesn't have the penetration of the others which probably puts him a touch behind Fasolo but as he showed this season when healthy he just finds those targets and is also a really special kick as he has been all throughout his career.

Then Young is more a long kicking, weapon finisher who can kick them from 65 easily which no other player can do on our team to that same level but the drawback as others have correctly identified is that over short and medium distances he can lack consistency and for that has to be rated behind the others. And those saying that Young shouldn't take kickouts are probably right, for the same reason and Goldsack you can't have someone who lacks consistency with those kickouts and fot that reason regardless of the penetration on his kick probably isn't that right person to take the kickouts.

For just kicking I'd take:
1. Reid
2. Clarke
3. Fasolo
4. Didak
5. Young

With not much at all seperating that top 4 in particular who are most impressive with Young and the rest some way behind.

 

[Jelly Bean]

You are right that Clarke gets height on his kick but what he does is find his targets over any distance up to 60m and get it to where they want it which no player on the list can do better with Reid his equal in this regard. The only better kick on our team in my view is Reid - because he has that same penetration and accuracy over all distances but then can make it fly quickly through the air to it's intended target. For this reason I'd love to see Clarke in an offensive role off a wing if not as a high half forward where he gets that opportunity to deliver it to those targets inside 50. It would really be something to watch and our forwards would love to be on the end of it with the way he can get it to where the player wants it like no other.

Fasolo and Didak in particular for mine stand out more for their vision and ability to find targets others wouldn't spot and this above anything else makes them really special playmakers in those high half forward roles. Both also in my mind also fit into that elite kicking category with their ability to hit targets. Didak doesn't have the penetration of the others which probably puts him a touch behind Fasolo but as he showed this season when healthy he just finds those targets and is also a really special kick as he has been all throughout his career.

Then Young is more a long kicking, weapon finisher who can kick them from 65 easily which no other player can do on our team to that same level but the drawback as others have correctly identified is that over short and medium distances he can lack consistency and for that has to be rated behind the others. And those saying that Young shouldn't take kickouts are probably right, for the same reason and Goldsack you can't have someone who lacks consistency with those kickouts and fot that reason regardless of the penetration on his kick probably isn't that right person to take the kickouts.

For just kicking I'd take:
1. Reid
2. Clarke
3. Fasolo
4. Didak
5. Young

With not much at all seperating that top 4 in particular who are most impressive with Young and the rest some way behind.

I think Clarke's kicking is more suited to coming through the middle of the ground. Because of the height of his kicks, he often hits his targets by putting the ball (perfectly) into space and letting the target run on to it. He does this very very well. However, this is not particularly suited to kicking into the forward line, as their is typically less space, and the opposition is typically marking the target alot closer (and given the height of the ball, gives a far stronger chance of spoiling). Queries over his dual sidedness as well, which isn't a great trait to have at AFL level.

Having said that, I also prefer Clarke on a wing (though as a defensive wingman) because I think we should be able to better exploit his main weapon, which is endurance.

As I said, I think Russell will be the primary kick-out nominee (when in the side).

 

[Knightmare]

I think Clarke's kicking is more suited to coming through the middle of the ground. Because of the height of his kicks, he often hits his targets by putting the ball (perfectly) into space and letting the target run on to it. He does this very very well. However, this is not particularly suited to kicking into the forward line, as their is typically less space, and the opposition is typically marking the target alot closer (and given the height of the ball, gives a far stronger chance of spoiling). Queries over his dual sidedness as well, which isn't a great trait to have at AFL level.

Having said that, I also prefer Clarke on a wing (though as a defensive wingman) because I think we should be able to better exploit his main weapon, which is endurance.

As I said, I think Russell will be the primary kick-out nominee (when in the side).

Russell I'd like to see first at VFL level but the opportunity will be there for him to receive games and he could very well become a regular if he can perform as he has in the past.

On Clarke as a defensive wingman that could certainly be a role for him and with Young as more that offensive style type not bad for list balance. He did an excellent role on Stanton earlier in the year and you are absolutely right to correctly utilise his strengths he should be played on a wing as opposed to defence because his endurance is elite with Sidebottom that only equal in our squad in this regard. The other thing with Clarke is that on a wing he won't be stuck in as many 1v1 as he is in the back half which also is more comfortable for Clarke as he doesn't have that natural understanding of body positionings and can be pretty easily pushed off from. On a wing I wouldn't say that he should be completely negative because his ball use is so good by foot but certainly that combination of being accountable but then also getting on the end of the ball is more what I'd look at. On a wing he'd get most of his ball between the HBF and HFF which would suit him because as you identified off half back he can find those targets but then also will find targets inside 50 and also go for those goals he seems to enjoy from 55m out as Harry O'Brien enjoys when he can get forward of centre and was something I really missed seeing this year with Marty because he was played entirely in the back half.

Marty seems hesitant to go onto his right but I did see one kick on his right which was perfectly to target in game at AFL level so it seems to be there, just he doesn't have that same comfort level going to it as say a Didak does where he can kick either side comfortably. It's more by hand in close when he has to dispose by his right that concerns me more with Clarke because he's just too slow to execute it and can get caught more often than you'd like and that even more than developing a comfortable right foot kick is more important again being caught out with this more often in game.

 

[forwardflanker]

One of these things is not like the others. Kerr is a pure rover with an almost supernatural understanding with his ruckman and genuine zip and skill in the middle. He is 178cm and 80kg. He is NOT a beast. Incidentally Mitchell is only 179cm, and 83kg, again, not a "beast". To compare Swan is 185cm and 92kg, and Pendles is 191cm and 91kg.

If by "beast" you are referring to attitude and not size, then we will have to wait and see how Williams, Kennedy, Josh Thomas and others go through there.

A couple of other posters, including the OP have suggested moving Beams back to the HFF. YOU ARE NUTS if you think that will happen, Beams would be just about in the top 5 midfielders in the competition in his FIRST YEAR AS A PURE MID. If you move Beams out of the midfield now you might as well start playing Cloke at full back and Jolly as a sub.

inclusive of finals,

Beams no 1 total effective disposals (542 to Mitchell's 2nd on 491)
Beams no 1 total disposals
Beams no 1 total dream team score
Beams no 1 total uncontested possessions
Beams no 2 total super coach
Beams no 6 total inside 50's
Beams no 9 total clearances
Beams no 15 total contested possessions

That makes him just about the best centre square offensive player in the league. We have Fasolo, Didak, Krakouer, Blair, Elliot, Sinclair, Kennedy, Macaffer, Goldsack and Mooney all looking for games forward of the ball, that is plenty enough to keep us from having to move Beams.

Fact is Ball will have to work his tail off to get back in the guts and stay there, and he is more than likely to push someone like Swan out, who has the capacity to play almost anywhere on the ground, than Beams.

Welcome to 2013.

I completely disagree with the bolded. Kerr is like a wrecking ball in the backs, he is a contested possession machine and has been throughout his career. The fact, as you said, that he also has good zip and brilliant ability to read the ball of the hand of rucks makes him one the best midfielders (when fit) of the last decade. If you don't think he's a beast go back and watch the last quarter of the final in 2011 final between WC and Carlton. Mitchell's very strong in the contest as well and one of the reasons why he is such a gun is because has a load of strength that lets him shrug and get his arms free to handball.


I don't get why people people are saying that when Ball comes back Beams has to move back to the forwardflank. I would have though if anyone did have to move it would be Swan. He can probably play as a leading flanker better than the other two and Beams and Ball are both better in the clearances. Given the way our midfield performed last season though, I would have though Ball playing all his time in the midfield will be a near certainty in 2013

 

[ash84]

No complaints at all with our off-season.
Filled all needs.
Still would like another big bodied mid, but we still have the PSD.

 

[partylikeits1990]

many of our needs are being addressed without the scrutiny of trade month & draft day. it has been discussed many times before - the return of ball & keeffe, an injury free thomas X 2, the 2nd & 3rd pre-seasons for fasolo, paine, gault & elliott, the confidence of a breakout year for beams, bucks 2nd season as coach, rendell.......the list goes on.

personally, im more excited by the above listed than the changes weve seen in the last 8 weeks.

Hallelujah!! Pies are dead set certainties to win the flag in 2013.

 

[noideaatall]

To Jelly Bean & Number 10,
thanks for your interpretation Jelly Bean, your posts have nailed my thoughts in this thread.

I have no criticism of our drafting this year, Number 10. I think Bucks would have liked to clean the list out last year but didn't think he had the mandate whereas this year he did. We are building a list for the future. Hurrah, sick of the pies trying to win it this year rather than thorough list building. In regards to the OP I don't believe we have addressed two key needs: a decent kick in and big bodied mids. Unlikely that either were ever going to be addressed via the draft.

I was a bit reactive to two things. Firstly we drafted the players available to us at our selection position. The fact we picked up Grundy says everything about what other clubs were after, very little about our drafting 'skills'. Outside of that Broomhead was the only (somewhat) left field selection, best to celebrate that when it proves to be worthy. Of course we are all excited by new draftees but I do wonder if the excitement builds expectations beyond ability to deliver hence why we eat our own when they fail to perform miracles.

Secondly, short term solutions to needs very often lead to problems later. Ball, Jolly, Krak and tazza were great additions and I'm not questioning their recruitment but giving away early picks for older players does (tend to) mean a loss of young high end talent in your list. That happened to us. Which is my second issue: Williams, Sinclair, Seedsmen, Clarke, Elliot - exciting as they may be - are not the next Swan, Beams or Pendlebury (IMO). Personally I thought it abundantly clear we lacked young high end talent this year. Who is going to replace players of the talent of players like Dids, Ball, Krak over the next couple of years? Thankfully we have gone about the path of addressing this lack in our drafting this year.

 

[forwardflanker]

You are right that Clarke gets height on his kick but what he does is find his targets over any distance up to 60m and get it to where they want it which no player on the list can do better with Reid his equal in this regard. The only better kick on our team in my view is Reid - because he has that same penetration and accuracy over all distances but then can make it fly quickly through the air to it's intended target. For this reason I'd love to see Clarke in an offensive role off a wing if not as a high half forward where he gets that opportunity to deliver it to those targets inside 50. It would really be something to watch and our forwards would love to be on the end of it with the way he can get it to where the player wants it like no other.

I think Clarke appears a better kick than he really is because he takes no risks with the targets he's aiming for - very similar to Pendlebury when he first started in that he'd hardly ever miss targets but he wouldn't be damaging at all with his kicking either. Clarke seems to only look for guys who are well clear on the lead or bomb long to a pack - neither are particularly damaging and it really makes him a nothing player. What made Didak and Leon Davis the best field kicks on our list the last few years was there precision in moving the ball through dangerous parts of the ground. It is also a huge reason behind Geelongs recent success. Clarke never takes those risks (he's not the only one either and it could be a gameplan thing). Also I think his lack of footpace makes him a bit of a defensive liability and as I said he don't think he hurts sides on the attack to be really considered close to best 22 next year - except for perhaps as a specialist tagger. Pretty harsh but we are going to have so many better options than him next season that I can't see him playing very much.

 

[jonbe54]

There are a few cherished preconceptions with players about to go by the board next year, its been made clear that there will be a shake up from the roots upward. No position is totally secure and all will have to earn their spots.

 

[THATSGOLD]

Walking out of the Hawthorn Qualifying final early i thought our biggest deficiency was not being able to extract the pill out of the middle. We have Ball to come back in but does that beat the Hawks in 2013?

 

[jonbe54]

Walking out of the Hawthorn Qualifying final early i thought our biggest deficiency was not being able to extract the pill out of the middle. We have Ball to come back in but does that beat the Hawks in 2013?

I never walked out on a Collingwood game until the bitter end, not even the '70 GF and I can't conceive of any circumstance that would drive me to do it.

 

[vjknight]

I never walked out on a Collingwood game until the bitter end, not even the '70 GF and I can't conceive of any circumstance that would drive me to do it.

only cos its easier to get away with free public transport in the madness of the big crowd leaving

 

[noideaatall]

I never walked out on a Collingwood game until the bitter end, not even the '70 GF and I can't conceive of any circumstance that would drive me to do it.

what about if superman (in a blues jumper) sat down beside you and said he'd rear end ya if you didn't piss off directly? Of Fev sat down and asked you about your mother. Or ya dog died. I could think of a million and one reasons that would get you moving fella.

 

[Knightmare]

to be really considered close to best 22 next year - except for perhaps as a specialist tagger. Pretty harsh but we are going to have so many better options than him next season that I can't see him playing very much.

I don't have him in my best 22 either. We just need to find the best role for him (given his skillset best suited to playing on a wing) but still who he goes past is the unknown. He can play and I'm comfortable whenver he is in the side and trust his game but I do have a good 4-5 ahead of him outside of our best 22 so we'll have to wait and see what he can do with a big preseason.

Even if Clarke doesn't develop into best 22 next year - which I'm not expecting just because of the strength of the squad I'd look to retain him for a third year. I'm just really comfortable with him in the team and he can pretty easily play a role, play it well and has some versatility with the range from back flank to forward flank and can be used as injury cover - ala Buckley and feel he is one of those depth options we can keep.

Walking out of the Hawthorn Qualifying final early i thought our biggest deficiency was not being able to extract the pill out of the middle. We have Ball to come back in but does that beat the Hawks in 2013?

I think Ball does help enough to make a difference through the middle certainly.

Hale, Mitchell and Sewell aren't going to improve for Hawthorn at the stage of their careers they are in.

Pendlebury had a relatively poor season. Sidebottom in the second half was poor and Thomas all season was a shadow of the player he was. We're a match for Hawthorn through the middle no problem assume full health if not slightly better.

It's more in the outside, ball movement areas we are lacking and still clearly behind Hawthorn - which is the case for all clubs and why I rate Hawthorn slightly ahead of us still because it's such a major advantage of theirs.

One thing to watch for with Hawthorn next year is that depth. It's really fallen off in a hurry with Young, Murphy and Gilham gone for nothing with Bruce and Bateman retired. It won't hurt that best 22 but if injuries happen they could have some issues. But I do believe they are still slightly ahead of us with that more advanced outside and ball movement aspect to their game, but not by as much as last season with us really making up the difference some this offseason with better depth.