Have we addressed our needs this offseason?

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Before the Draft & Trade period we were deficient in 5 areas: 1. Ruck depth 2. Forward potency 3. Speed 4. Kick ins 5. Inside ball.

For mine, we have gone a long way toward addressing 1,2 and 3 with our trading and selections.

1. Gaining Grundy is a perfect result for us and if we can eke one or two more years out of Jolly you would think that our situation is looking ideal, having rolled the dice in clearing Wood and Ceglar.

2 & 3. Young, Kennedy and Broomhead all look to be able to kick with penetration and accuracy. The latter two have pace and a genuine burst off the mark. The two SA boys seem to have a strong goal sense and will add much needed attack and pace in the forward 50.

4. Not clear how this is being solved and rightly being discussed.

5. Mids can now almost be divided into 3 categories – outside, inside/outside and pure inside. The pure inside may be able to also play outside (eg Kerr, Judd, Black) depending on role/opportunity but generally plays closest to ruck and farms the ball out from the source OR, if he misses the tap, looks to tackle at the source. Most top sides can rotate 3 or 4 of these through the stoppages. We have 1 – Luke Ball. As was pointed out here, Beams, despite being elite in all categories was 16th in contested possession. Statistically our biggest weakness this year was tackling at the stoppages. Reason obvious – Luke Ball missing.
Next year would be an ideal time for Josh Thomas to show us what he’s got. Blair could also conceivably step up here. As has been noted, not all inside mids are beasts. But really, this is why Hrovat or Lonergan would have been a great get for us with their Mitchell/Sewell-like qualities. I understand the reasoning behind not taking Hrovat but was nearly crying when GC took Lonergan, he would have been the perfect fit for us.
Because we have a lot of really good inside/outside mids (Swan, Beams, Pendles etc) I don’t think we need a full on beast brigade like Sydney. One good pure inside player would perfectly balance our engine, a youngster ideally, with Ball approaching retirement. The rookie draft may give us a rough chance of addressing the above problems. We have a great record with rookies and can still be optimistic.

Final thought: Our list is in great shape for next year. We have improved our depth and can be very confident of challenging again. Knightmare often alludes to Geelong’s clever low-list turnover. But I would argue that our changes in the last 3 years have been necessary. Our list was never as good as Geelong’s to begin with, we have elite players but the age profiles were slightly out compared to the Cats, so we’ve had to do a mini-rebuild. However, Hawthorn and Sydney have shown that if you draft well, you don’t need to bottom out before challenging again.
 
what about if superman (in a blues jumper) sat down beside you and said he'd rear end ya if you didn't piss off directly? Of Fev sat down and asked you about your mother. Or ya dog died. I could think of a million and one reasons that would get you moving fella.
Well I would make an exception in the case of Fev - some of the childishness may rub off.
 
Yeah, there is no way Beams is going to be moved back outside the square regularly... If anything, Ball coming back in will push Swan out to a wing / half forward. Beams, Pendles, Ball will be our top-line starting centre-square midfield.
I agree with Beams becoming a first choice centre square player but I also think Swan won't get pushed out. Swan has game breaking speed over the first 5-10 metres to accelerate out of the stoppage and get the ball going forward. Pendles can't do that and although Beams can do these on occasions, he is not as good as Swan. Swan will see some time on HFF but will still be a centre square midfielder.

I think Luke Ball is no longer in the no 1 midfield unit (Pendles, Swan, Beams). Initially the club should play him off the bench to give the no 1 midfield unit a rest, which is probably the best thing for him coming off a knee reco. I think Ball forms part of the no 2 midfield unit with Thomas and one of Sidebottom/Blair.
 

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I think Ball is still the number 1 choice. Beams does not move out of the midfield, but I think we'll see a lot more of Swan, Pendlebury and Thomas rotating forward to give our forward line more potency.

Beams is a gun, but I think Ball locked down on his opponent better. He is a better option to square off against the likes of Kennedy and Sewell. Beams is more an attacking player and pushes forward hard. They should work well in tandem.


In terms of our needs, we have done well over off-season. We got some outside run with Young and Kennedy, addressed our ruck department and also found what we believe is a better option as a 2nd forward to Cloke.

Really looking forward to 2013, but ultimately what we need more than anything is some luck on the injury front.
 
I agree with Beams becoming a first choice centre square player but I also think Swan won't get pushed out. Swan has game breaking speed over the first 5-10 metres to accelerate out of the stoppage and get the ball going forward. Pendles can't do that and although Beams can do these on occasions, he is not as good as Swan. Swan will see some time on HFF but will still be a centre square midfielder.

I think Luke Ball is no longer in the no 1 midfield unit (Pendles, Swan, Beams). Initially the club should play him off the bench to give the no 1 midfield unit a rest, which is probably the best thing for him coming off a knee reco. I think Ball forms part of the no 2 midfield unit with Thomas and one of Sidebottom/Blair.

Gee not bad though

Midfield 1 - Swan, Pendles, Beams
Midfield 2 - Thomas, Ball, Sidebottom

Pretty good double act that one.
 
Gee not bad though

Midfield 1 - Swan, Pendles, Beams
Midfield 2 - Thomas, Ball, Sidebottom

Pretty good double act that one.

The only time we will need to divide our midfield into groups of 3 is when there is a centre bounce after a goal. That happens 20-40 times a game. The other 60+ stoppages you will have 5-6 mids around the ball so it's not the defining role of that player.

FWIW I would like to see Pendlebury, Swan and Ball in centre bounce stoppages - this is probably the best in the league. Around the ground obviously a plethora of players would be added to this mix.
 
[quote="Knightmare, post: 26510011, member: 105307]

I think Ball does help enough to make a difference through the middle certainly.

Hale, Mitchell and Sewell aren't going to improve for Hawthorn at the stage of their careers they are in.

Pendlebury had a relatively poor season. Sidebottom in the second half was poor and Thomas all season was a shadow of the player he was. We're a match for Hawthorn through the middle no problem assume full health if not slightly better.

It's more in the outside, ball movement areas we are lacking and still clearly behind Hawthorn - which is the case for all clubs and why I rate Hawthorn slightly ahead of us still because it's such a major advantage of theirs.

One thing to watch for with Hawthorn next year is that depth. It's really fallen off in a hurry with Young, Murphy and Gilham gone for nothing with Bruce and Bateman retired. It won't hurt that best 22 but if injuries happen they could have some issues. But I do believe they are still slightly ahead of us with that more advanced outside and ball movement aspect to their game, but not by as much as last season with us really making up the difference some this offseason with better depth.[/quote]

I'm very confident we will out perform Hawthorn next year. I'd love to give reasons but I'm away and on my phone for the next 3 or 4days.
 
I think we have fixed everything in the midfield, ruck and forward but my worry is the back line and the kick outs. We really struggled getting it out of the deffence last season so I hope Young and Russell can do a good job because we don't have anyone else who can kick out in our back line. If we can fix that then we should be great and hopefully challenge Hawthorn and WCE.

WCE just like us have now got a very well balanced side. Got hard body players in their midfield, now with Wellingham have added some pace, powerhouse forward line, the best ruck in the comp and also very solid back line.

It will be interesting to see the game plan for 2013 and also what these young guns in Kennedy and Grundy can produce, I can see them cementing a spot in the 22 especially Kennedy, he is going to be something special.

Bring on 2013!
 
Some interesting thoughts on Hawthorn. I agree their depth was superior this season but also, it wasn't really tested to any degree. I think Buddy missed a few, Hodge struggled and they had one or two others out (Osborne, Bateman from memory) but nowhere near the carnage suffered by West Coast, the Cheats and ourselves. I wonder how Hathorn will go if decimated in some of their key stocks. They really enjoyed a stable line up this year.
 
I'm also interested to see what kind of player Broomhead evolves into. At the moment you would assume a light, flanker or forward. But he seems to be pretty strong and balanced & has a really good habit of using what strength he has to keep his feet in a contest. I'm wondering if, assuming we could add about 5kg's + to him whether he might be able to go through the middle. Talent wise he seems capable.
 
Not really sure why everyone here is living in serious denial.

Neither Beams, Swan, Pendlebury, Sidebottom or Blair are genuine insiders. Pendlebury is a much better player when he has time and space to utilise his elite lateral movement, awareness/ vision and pin point kicking skills. When he has to go inside as a team we lose that ball distribution, and quite frankly he's not that good as the first possession player.

Watch the Hawthorn game at the G towards the end of the year to outline how significantly monstored we were in the midfield. Beams, Swan and Pendles all had great numbers. But overall the teams' possession washigh, yet we still lost the game by 10 goals. Contested possession was alarmingly low, combined with clearances we were smashed around the football.

Collingwood without Luke Ball were a 5 goal worse side, and will continue to be. Collingwood's greatest deficiency remains the absence of a genuine clearance specialist (without luke ball). Closely followed by Harry O's inabaility to defend one on one, and the general weakness of the backline - Harry O, Toovey and Simon Buckley in the same defensive unit is never going to get the job done.
 
I'm very confident we will out perform Hawthorn next year. I'd love to give reasons but I'm away and on my phone for the next 3 or 4days.

Last season we were a 6 goals worse team than Hawthorn.

They added Lake to that best 22 which is another upgrade on their part.

Do Ball, Young, Lynch and Russell make us a 6+ goal per game better team? You have to remember we lost Tarrant (perfect matchup for Franklin), Wellingham and Dawes. I'm still not liking the matchup v Hawthorn without Tarrant, Franklin could pretty easily go off for 8 goals against N.Brown or 10 on Reid with Keeffe the only possible who may be able to keep Franklin to 4 or less goals with his game the only one potentially capable of contesting v Franklin.

In saying this I think West Coast could be the team to beat and a touch better than Hawthorn. I think they can surprise and go all the way next season.
 

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Not really sure why everyone here is living in serious denial.

Neither Beams, Swan, Pendlebury, Sidebottom or Blair are genuine insiders. Pendlebury is a much better player when he has time and space to utilise his elite lateral movement, awareness/ vision and pin point kicking skills. When he has to go inside as a team we lose that ball distribution, and quite frankly he's not that good as the first possession player.

Watch the Hawthorn game at the G towards the end of the year to outline how significantly monstored we were in the midfield. Beams, Swan and Pendles all had great numbers. But overall the teams' possession washigh, yet we still lost the game by 10 goals. Contested possession was alarmingly low, combined with clearances we were smashed around the football.

Collingwood without Luke Ball were a 5 goal worse side, and will continue to be. Collingwood's greatest deficiency remains the absence of a genuine clearance specialist (without luke ball). Closely followed by Harry O's inabaility to defend one on one, and the general weakness of the backline - Harry O, Toovey and Simon Buckley in the same defensive unit is never going to get the job done.

Lol I think you're being a little generous there.. if luke ball makes 5 goals difference, then not having cloke or jolly makes us a 15 goal worse side o_O
 
Lol I think you're being a little generous there.. if luke ball makes 5 goals difference, then not having cloke or jolly makes us a 15 goal worse side o_O

It's the domino effect not having Ball there has which makes him a 5 goal player. Just his presence adds 2 himself, as generally he'll kick one and give off another.

But at Pendles best (2011/2010), how many goals does he add? Take out Luke Ball, put pendlebury as an inside midfielder, reduce his capacity to play on the outside and see the effect it has on forward entry and goal assists to the side. Pendlebury is elite at what he does best - an A Grade midfielder when he has time and space. When he does, we end up with it, in a scoring position. I would say Pendlebury adds 2-3 goals to our side at his best.

Do the math. it works out to be between 3-5 goal difference Luke Ball makes to our structure when he plays. But you barrack for collingwood, so you probably can't count...
 
It's the domino effect not having Ball there has which makes him a 5 goal player. Just his presence adds 2 himself, as generally he'll kick one and give off another.

But at Pendles best (2011/2010), how many goals does he add? Take out Luke Ball, put pendlebury as an inside midfielder, reduce his capacity to play on the outside and see the effect it has on forward entry and goal assists to the side. Pendlebury is elite at what he does best - an A Grade midfielder when he has time and space. When he does, we end up with it, in a scoring position. I would say Pendlebury adds 2-3 goals to our side at his best.

Do the math. it works out to be between 3-5 goal difference Luke Ball makes to our structure when he plays. But you barrack for collingwood, so you probably can't count...

Saying one player makes a 5 goal difference to a team of 22 players is blatantly stupid mate, YOU do the math. Don't insult fellow collingwood posters, you sound very arrogant.
 
I agree with Beams becoming a first choice centre square player but I also think Swan won't get pushed out. Swan has game breaking speed over the first 5-10 metres to accelerate out of the stoppage and get the ball going forward. Pendles can't do that and although Beams can do these on occasions, he is not as good as Swan. Swan will see some time on HFF but will still be a centre square midfielder.

I think Luke Ball is no longer in the no 1 midfield unit (Pendles, Swan, Beams). Initially the club should play him off the bench to give the no 1 midfield unit a rest, which is probably the best thing for him coming off a knee reco. I think Ball forms part of the no 2 midfield unit with Thomas and one of Sidebottom/Blair.

Ball will be the first choice for the centre square action. I think that Beams will often start on the wing.
 
It's the domino effect not having Ball there has which makes him a 5 goal player. Just his presence adds 2 himself, as generally he'll kick one and give off another.

But at Pendles best (2011/2010), how many goals does he add? Take out Luke Ball, put pendlebury as an inside midfielder, reduce his capacity to play on the outside and see the effect it has on forward entry and goal assists to the side. Pendlebury is elite at what he does best - an A Grade midfielder when he has time and space. When he does, we end up with it, in a scoring position. I would say Pendlebury adds 2-3 goals to our side at his best.

Do the math. it works out to be between 3-5 goal difference Luke Ball makes to our structure when he plays. But you barrack for collingwood, so you probably can't count...


Not 100% sure why the insult was necessary johnson_26?

That aside, from your positive tallies for those two, wouldn't you have to subtract the contributions of Luke Ball's alternate / replacement, to end up with the net benefit?
 
I think our spread of midfielders is very formidable. The only problem really (at the risk of sounding like a broken record) is that issue of being outcompeted in contested possession by the best sides in the biggest games. In particular Grand Finals where it just gets back to that law of the jungle stuff in the middle. I do think that improving our ruck stocks will enhance our clearance work. By far the biggest embarassment this year (other than the Hawthorn games) was that fiasco at Subiaco when Wood took on Cox and Natanui.

Another example of a team trying to remedy this problem was the Cheats getting McClean to try and allow Judd more freedom to break and attack. (with the ball not opponents arms)

I was thinking maybe we should work on finding a bull somewhere in the PS draft or rookie. Someone that can take a hit, tackle, throw his weight around and hopefully even get a few touches. Hopefully more Sewell, less Stanley. It would balance out the creative finesse we have in abundance. Interested to hear what other people think.
 
PS OK Dwyer from Port Melbourne being discussed in the rookie/PSD thread. Any love? Is he the man we're looking for?
 
PS OK Dwyer from Port Melbourne being discussed in the rookie/PSD thread. Any love? Is he the man we're looking for?

Has been one of the better VFL players for some years now.

I like the fit and have liked his game for some time now. Good enough to play at AFL level if required but is excellent depth and will make our VFL side much more competitive. That's for certain.

If not confident in an 18 year old then Dwyer is a safe, but also very good option and helps our top 8 chances at VFL level which I think the club are really pushing hard for which for the younger players would be a positive experience.
 
PS OK Dwyer from Port Melbourne being discussed in the rookie/PSD thread. Any love? Is he the man we're looking for?
If we pick him, i think he is a very good chance to debut if we get a long term midfield injury.
Seedsman got AFL games last season and Dwyer is probably the better player at the current moment in their careers.
 
Not 100% sure why the insult was necessary johnson_26?

That aside, from your positive tallies for those two, wouldn't you have to subtract the contributions of Luke Ball's alternate / replacement, to end up with the net benefit?[/quote

Without wanting to buy into how many goals of difference are involved, I agree with the attacking benefits to the team of allowing Pendles and others to play more outside more often, however, I think one of the other contributions that Luke Ball makes is important too. That is, the ferocious tackling when oppo teams are trying to get 'clean clearances' that lead to high percentage forward entries for them. Bally often either provides great pressure on the clearance thus helping the backline, or stops it altogether. [Can you tell that number 12 is my favourite player?] :p
 
If we pick him, i think he is a very good chance to debut if we get a long term midfield injury.
Seedsman got AFL games last season and Dwyer is probably the better player at the current moment in their careers.

Don't write him off going past someone like Blair next year, could be a surprise packet once he gets into the AFL system.
 
Very good trade year, but we aren't tough enough in the midfield. Need a Chapman or some other hard as nails bloke besides Ball.

Pendles and Swan are not inside mids....well stats say they are, but they're more effective with a lot of space.
 

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