Rank the 10 greatest Eagles players of all-time

[Ian Dargie]

It's not a matter of "Is that really how it works?" Given this thread is an exercise in subjective views, it's a matter of 'how each individual personally sees it'.

People should still be able to make coherent arguments.

Otherwise I may as well put RoJo No.1 and expect everyone to take me seriously.

I'm sure there are both pro's and cons for Kerr playing with Judd and Cousins. Did Kerr playing with those two make his footballing easier? Yes. Did playing with two players better than him steal his thunder?

What does that even mean?

He still managed to finish second in the Brownlow in the year Cousins won it.

Did someone forget to steal his thunder that year?

Yes, for there was less opportunity to shine. Just like when a star studded midfield have multiple players so-called "stealing" Brownlow votes from each other. Kerr is an elite player in his own right. Personal awards possibly could've been more forthcoming if Judd and Cousins weren't around to steal his thunder, so to speak.

Come on, this is bullshit.

It's not like there's a limited quota of quality and Judd and Cousins were hogging it all.

There was plenty of "opportunity to shine". In fact, it was easier for Kerr to shine because he didn't have to worry about a tag. When Cousins and Judd left, how did Kerr go?

I never said or implied that Matera was a lone hand in his day. I said that WC's team in the 90's was great but blue collar, and that Matera produced dazzling moves and scintillating play. What I meant by this is that he stood out at WC due to the flair and uniqueness he played with compared to his more workman-like fellow midfielders. That's very much unlike Kerr, who had Judd and Cousins stealing his thunder.

Geez, you're keen on buzzwords.

Were Mainwaring, Heady and Lewis "blue collar"?

Matera stood out because he was a champion.

Matera's situation was different to Kerr's during their respective successful periods. Matera may have been tagged more often, but he was the main man, the Eagles' most dangerous player at the time. With this came opportunity that wasn't afforded Kerr. Kerr, while not tagged as much, was still behind Judd and Cousins, who were the focus of the team for WC as well as the opposition.

Hang on.

So Matera, who got tagged, had an advantage, whereas Kerr, who wasn't tagged, was denied opportunity?

Surely that's about as arse-backwards as it gets.

The fact that Matera got tagged made his life harder. The fact that Kerr wasn't tagged made his life easier. Doesn't that make more sense than what you've said?

 

[jod23]

I do not agree that McIntosh or Matera were underachievers or were inconsistent. I think people have a warped view of history.

McIntosh played in 3GFs in his first 4 years. He played on and nullified some of the game's great players - Dunstall, Lockett, Abblett etc. That for me puts him ahead of Glass as a player - the players he played on and nullified were of a superior quality. He even polled in the Brownlow a few times which shows how dynamic he was as a player.

Could also go forward and kick goals.

 

[jod23]

Why?

Games record-holder and our best ever KPP.

Was the linchpin of our flag-winning defences while still very young and went on to become the best CHB of the modern era, who was capable of beating the best CHF of the modern era at his own game. At his best, he was probably the most dominant key defender I've seen. That's good enough for me.

I have lots of love for Chris Lewis but I think there are definitely 10 guys ahead of him.

In many ways, Lewis is comparable to Kerr. Burst on to the scene and made an impact early but there were some lost years through injury and ill-discipline, to the point where he probably didn't produce his best often enough to demand inclusion in this list. Unlike Lewis, Kerr still has time to get there.

Do you want to make a real argument for once?

Glass has been among the league's top FBs for many years and is still at the top of his game on the other side of 30. McKenna was not.

At best, it's a close-run thing. So to dismiss it as "craziness" makes you sound unreasonable.

I just think Jako didnt have as much pure talent as what Cousins and Matera had. Jako is cemented in the top 5 though, just not number 1 IMO. He wasnt good enough for long enough, like Matera and Cuz were. Cousins would have eaten up Jako's games record too had he not gone off the rails.

Lewis probably misses out on top 10. Certainly was top 10 for a long time, but recently, last 10 years or so, Cousins, Judd and Cox stormed onto the list, probably dropping Lewis out. Crazily skilled though and a no brainer in a best ever 22 for West Coast.

I dont think it's a close run thing. I think McKenna is one of the best defenders ive ever seen. Glass is very good and probably just outside the top 10 whereas Bluey IMO is cemented in the top 5.

 

[jod23]

Surprised more people haven't put Judd at #1. Sure, it was a shortened career but it was absolutely top shelf. AA, Brownlow, Norm Smith, Premiership Captain. He did everything there was to achieve in football while @ WCE.

Im actually surprised some people actually put Judd ahead of Cousins. Cousins has the AA's, the Brownlow, the AFLPA MVP, the Premiership, he was pretty much premiership captain, everybody knew even without the title, who our leader still was. Plus he did it for far, far, longer. For me, easily Cousins over Judd.

 

[jod23]

Is someone trying to argue that Kerr is better than Matera? Lolz. Love Special K, but he is a level below the great Peter Matera.

 

[jod23]

I've tried to do this list and found it too difficult to compare players of different eras and different positions. I have therefore come up with a set of criteria to help.

12 points: Club Champion: speaks for itself. Doesn't help comparing different eras.
7 points: All-Australian: compares players with their contemporaries, therefore negating era problem.
4 points: Premiership: what it's all about.
3 points/year: Captain: leadership is as important as any drop punt.
2 points: Norm Smith: BOG when it matters most.

Have I missed any? Are my weightings right?

Let's see...

12 points: Club Champion award.
8 points: All Australian.
6 points: Premiership.
5 points: 200 games.
3 points: 100 games.
3 points: Brownlow.
3 points: AFLPA MVP.
2 points: Norm Smith.
1 point: Runner up Brownlow.
1 point: per year of being Captain.

So going by that formula, the following. I did the following 15 players who have been mentioned the most in our top 10 lists.

1. Cousins - 119
2. Glass - 84
3. Jakovich - 81
4. McKenna - 75
5. Matera - 73
6. Cox - 71
7. Judd - 59
8. Worsfold - 53
9. Kemp - 40
=10. McIntosh - 37
=10. Lewis - 37
12. Mainwaring - 33
13. Kerr - 21
14. Wirrpanda - 19
15. Embley - 13

So having done that exercise I think it goes pretty well. Glass too high, Kemp and Matera a little too low. Cousins the clear winner. Judd in a more realistic position.

 

[Marlin01]

Excellent work Jod.

 

[Masto]

Im actually surprised some people actually put Judd ahead of Cousins. Cousins has the AA's, the Brownlow, the AFLPA MVP, the Premiership, he was pretty much premiership captain, everybody knew even without the title, who our leader still was. Plus he did it for far, far, longer. For me, easily Cousins over Judd.

Cousins wasn't premiership captain though and his longevity was cancelled out by his off-field indiscretions. For me, Judd in his prime was better than Cousins. Even Trevor Nisbett said Judd was our best ever player. Hell, you could make the case that Judd is the greatest player of all time. He has the highest Brownlow votes per game in AFL history and sits 4th on the all time list. If you want the most decorated player, yeah its probably Cousins. If you want the best player, its Judd.

 

[JackJako27]

I like it Jod. A solid list and is pretty much in line with my list and most others on here.

Formulas and things are fine but for me its about how important the player was to the team, toughness, leadership, longevity, loyalty and just general awesomeness... which is why for me Jako is my number one. He was rarely beaten and often took on the best player and won.

I think for most people the top 5 or so will be the same, just in different orders. And this is fine, it's what makes footy so enjoyable.

 

[WCE_phil]

1. Cousins
2. Matera
3. Jakovich
4. Cox
5. Kemp
6. Judd
7. Mckenna
8. Glass
9. Mcintosh (still the better FB though imo)
10. Sumich

Myself like a lot of people though while not having Worsfold on this list would still have him down as the single most important person in WCE history. Been involved in every successful part of our history. Two time premiership captain, premiership coach, has overseen the building of what is hopefully 2 successful sides.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

1. Cousins
2. Matera
3. Jakovich
4. Cox
5. Kemp
6. Judd
7. Mckenna
8. Glass
9. Mcintosh (still the better FB though imo)
10. Sumich

Insane to think Worsfold, Mainwaring, Heady, Lewis can't make the list isn't it.

 

[amazingjoshy]

Super effort there jod, but it opens the door for debate on how much weight should be given to the various awards/achievements. For example having an AA worth almost 3 times a Brownlow/MVP doesn't seem right to me

 

[jod23]

Super effort there jod, but it opens the door for debate on how much weight should be given to the various awards/achievements. For example having an AA worth almost 3 times a Brownlow/MVP doesn't seem right to me

I dumbed down the Brownlow and AFLMVP because it's an award for midfielders. So Cox is never gonna win one, neither is say Jakovich, McKenna. But the AA team recognises every position on the field. That was my thought process.

 

[jod23]

Cousins wasn't premiership captain though and his longevity was cancelled out by his off-field indiscretions. For me, Judd in his prime was better than Cousins. Even Trevor Nisbett said Judd was our best ever player. Hell, you could make the case that Judd is the greatest player of all time. He has the highest Brownlow votes per game in AFL history and sits 4th on the all time list. If you want the most decorated player, yeah its probably Cousins. If you want the best player, its Judd.

Cousins was the premiership captain. Ask anyone at the club, or any fan. Cousins was our leader, not Judd. Why was Cousins longevity cancelled out by his off field indiscretions? What happened off field happened off field. We are talking about what happened on the field and Cousins played almost 100 more games for the club at at EXTREMELY high level.

Also when you talk about great WCE players, you want to list them, loyalty surely has to come into it also. Cousins was a one club man, despite his 2 years at Richmond which only happened because of his problems. Had he not had the drug issues, he would have played 300 odd games for us, probably another couple of B&F's and AA's. Wouldnt even be a discussion really. We were robbed actually of the cementing of a legend.

 

[Ian Dargie]

I just think Jako didnt have as much pure talent as what Cousins and Matera had.

Probably didn't have as much pure talent as Chris Lewis either.

If talent, rather than performance, is what counts, the list looks pretty different.

Jako is cemented in the top 5 though, just not number 1 IMO. He wasnt good enough for long enough, like Matera and Cuz were. Cousins would have eaten up Jako's games record too had he not gone off the rails.

Games record-holder and four-time B&F winner. Hardly a flash in the pan.

Like I said, our best ever KPP, the best CHB of the modern era and the most dominant defender I've seen.

And yes, a lot of things would have been different had Cousins not gone of the rails. Cousins would probably have ended up a unanimous No.1 had he finished the job instead being sacked at 29. But we don't inhabit that parallel universe.

Lewis probably misses out on top 10. Certainly was top 10 for a long time, but recently, last 10 years or so, Cousins, Judd and Cox stormed onto the list, probably dropping Lewis out. Crazily skilled though and a no brainer in a best ever 22 for West Coast.

So why whinge about people not putting him on their lists?

There are definitely 10 guys ahead of him.

I dont think it's a close run thing. I think McKenna is one of the best defenders ive ever seen. Glass is very good and probably just outside the top 10 whereas Bluey IMO is cemented in the top 5.

Well, suffice to say that I think that's a mile wide of the mark.

McKenna in the top 5? So which one of Cox, Cousins, Judd, Jakovich or Matera do you have him above?

And I am actually slightly baffled by you inexplicably under-rating Glass.

Glass has won three B&Fs and been an elite FB for 7-8 years. He has also continued that form into his 30s. McKenna was no longer at that level at the same stage of his career.

And even at his best, how many times in his career do you reckon McKenna had to take the other side's best forward? Compare that to Glass giving Barry Hall a hiding in the 2006 grand final. He could easily have won the Norm Smith for that. Hall was the AA CHF that year and Glass smashed him in a match we won by a solitary point. Had Hall broken even that day, we wouldn't have won the flag. Did McKenna ever do anything like that? A thumping victory over an elite key forward when it mattered most?

McKenna's best days simply weren't as consequential because he wasn't needed for those big defensive jobs. Glass, on the other hand, had to take these top key forwards one on one, because we didn't really flood or put extra players in defence, and regularly beat them. McKenna had the luxury of being part of a star-studded defence - Jakovich, Worsfold, Brennan and then McIntosh - whereas Glass held our back six together. Hell, the defence was built around him. McKenna never had to play on Ablett or Carey or Dunstall or any of those guys. Glass, by comparison, got those big jobs every week and now deserves to be rated as one of the best two FBs of the past decade, only a touch behind Matty Scarlett.

If you can make a real argument for McKenna over Glass - beyond 'McKenna is better' - I'd be fascinated to hear it.

 

[Ian Dargie]

Im actually surprised some people actually put Judd ahead of Cousins. Cousins has the AA's, the Brownlow, the AFLPA MVP, the Premiership.

Judd has those as well. And a Norm Smith.

I have Cousins ahead of Judd because Judd only played 134 games for us.

But if you want to add up awards, it's not a great argument for Cousins over Judd.

 

[Ian Dargie]

McIntosh played in 3GFs in his first 4 years. He played on and nullified some of the game's great players - Dunstall, Lockett, Abblett etc. That for me puts him ahead of Glass as a player - the players he played on and nullified were of a superior quality.

I wonder how accurate that is.

I don't reckon McIntosh would have spent much time on Ablett. In the years when Ablett was dominating, Brennan and Worsfold were more likely to take him.

Sure, after Brennan retired at the end of 1995, McIntosh became the first-choice FB but it means you've only got a short window when McIntosh was taking these guys, particularly Ablett and Dunstall, who finished earlier than Lockett.

Maybe McIntosh played on Ablett once in 1996, Ablett's last year, but Ablett kicked seven goals that day, so hardly a win for us. And 1996 was Dunstall's last hurrah. We played Hawthorn once that year and beat them comfortably. Dunstall kicked four of Hawthorn's eight so probably fair to say he beat his man that day.

So if your argument is that McIntosh spent his career playing on and beating the best full-forwards of the age, it's not really true. He rarely played on Ablett, and would maybe have taken Dunstall for a year or two at the tail-end of Dunstall's career. Maybe one or two matches. Admittedly he had to take Lockett for 1996-99. McIntosh played Sydney four times in that period and Lockett was generally well-held but is that enough to spin your wheels?

By the time McIntosh was a top-line FB, he was playing on the likes of Modra, Lloyd and Neitz, rather than Ablett and Dunstall. Still great players but were they a millions mile better than the players Glass has nullified?

McIntosh also had the benefit of being part of an awesome defence. He never had to worry about Carey, for example. Glass, on the other hand, has been the main man and stand-out key defender in our back six since 2003-04.

 

[Masto]

Cousins was the premiership captain. Ask anyone at the club, or any fan. Cousins was our leader, not Judd. Why was Cousins longevity cancelled out by his off field indiscretions? What happened off field happened off field. We are talking about what happened on the field and Cousins played almost 100 more games for the club at at EXTREMELY high level.

Also when you talk about great WCE players, you want to list them, loyalty surely has to come into it also. Cousins was a one club man, despite his 2 years at Richmond which only happened because of his problems. Had he not had the drug issues, he would have played 300 odd games for us, probably another couple of B&F's and AA's. Wouldnt even be a discussion really. We were robbed actually of the cementing of a legend.

It is what it is. He wasn't and no amount of arguing otherwise will change history.

 

[Masto]

I wonder how accurate that is.

I don't reckon McIntosh would have spent much time on Ablett. In the years when Ablett was dominating, Brennan and Worsfold were more likely to take him.

Sure, after Brennan retired at the end of 1995, McIntosh became the first-choice FB but it means you've only got a short window when McIntosh was taking Dunstall and Lockett, both of whom were into their 30s by then. Maybe McIntosh played on Ablett once in 1996, Ablett's last year, but Ablett kicked seven goals that day, so hardly a win for us. Lockett kept kicking bags until 1999 but 1996 was Dunstall's last hurrah. We played Hawthorn once that year and beat them comfortably. Dunstall kicked four of Hawthorn's eight so probably fair to say he beat his man that day.

So if your argument is that McIntosh spent his career playing on and beating the best full-forwards of the age, it's not really true. He rarely played on Ablett, and would maybe have taken Dunstall for a year or two at the tail-end of Dunstall's career. Maybe one or two matches. He had to take Lockett for 1996-99. McIntosh played Sydney four times in that period and Lockett was generally well-held but managed to boot seven against us in 1998. Either way, is that enough to really get excited about?

By the time McIntosh was a top-line FB, he was playing on the likes of Modra, Lloyd and Neitz, rather than Ablett and Dunstall. Still great players but were they a millions mile better than the players Glass has nullified?

McIntosh also had the benefit of being part of an awesome defence. He never had to worry about Carey, for example. Glass, on the other hand, has been the main man and stand-out key defender in our back six since 2003-04.

You can rationalise it all you want but McIntosh played against superior players. Who was the best player Darren Glass played against? Barry Hall? Pavlich? they don't compare with Dunstall, Ablett, Lockett, Modra in his prime - any which way you want to cut it he played on some of the best forwards of all time who clearly as a group who superior players than the ones Glass played against.

 

[Ian Dargie]

You can rationalise it all you want but McIntosh played against superior players.

Did you read my post, mate?

He only became the first-choice FB in 1996. That was Ablett's last year and Dunstall's last good year. Both of them got away from us in our matches that year. So your argument about McIntosh playing on Ablett and Dunstall - or beating them - is a poor one. It's not accurate.

Yes, he played on Lockett probably four times from 1996-99. Four matches. Does that make all the difference?

As for "rationalising it", is that meant to be a bad thing? Oh, you can presents "facts" if you want... Sure, I will. Thanks.

Who was the best player Darren Glass played against? Barry Hall? Pavlich? they don't compare with Dunstall, Ablett, Lockett, Modra in his prime - any which way you want to cut it he played on some of the best forwards of all time who clearly as a group who superior players than the ones Glass played against.

Glass would have played on Lloyd, Hall, Franklin, Pavlich. Maybe Brown at times? Pretty handy players, I reckon. And, unlike McIntosh, he played against them in their prime and as the absolute main man in our back six.

If you want to talk about McIntosh doing well on Lockett, by then in his 30s, in four matches from 1996-99 like that's the be-all and end-all, that's up to you. But, as I've demonstrated, McIntosh would barely have played on Ablett and Dunstall and if he did take them once each in 1996, he probably lowered his colours. So I don't know why you'd keep circling back and repeating such a leaky argument.

 

[Masto]

He only became the first-choice FB in 1996.

He played against Dunstall in the 1992 final @ Subiaco.

 

[Ian Dargie]

He played against Dunstall in the 1992 final @ Subiaco.

You realise that McIntosh was 19 years old at that stage? Dunstall was the Coleman Medal-winning FF, so it's probably fair to suggest Brennan was the likely starting opponent. Agreed?

But let's assume for a second that McIntosh took Dunstall that day. Dunstall kicked six goals out of Hawthorn's 12 so how would that be a win for McIntosh? If, as you suggest, McIntosh took Dunstall, he was beaten. Isn't your argument that Mcintosh got the better of these guys?

 

[Masto]

You realise that McIntosh was 19 years old at that stage? Dunstall was the Coleman Medal-winning FF, so it's probably fair to suggest Brennan was the likely starting opponent. Agreed?

But let's assume for a second that McIntosh took Dunstall that day. Dunstall kicked six goals out of Hawthorn's 12 so how would that be a win for McIntosh? If, as you suggest, McIntosh took Dunstall, he was beaten. Isn't your argument that Mcintosh got the better of these guys?

Yes, he also played against Brereton as an 18 yo in the 1991 GF. Brennan started and Dunstall carved him up so Malthouse moved McIntosh onto him and shut him down. He played on some of the best players of all time as an teenager and shut them down. That's how good he was. Glass has had a long and consistent career but it never reached the heights that McIntosh did.

 

[Ian Dargie]

Yes, he also played against Brereton as an 18 yo in the 1991 GF. Brennan started and Dunstall carved him up so Malthouse moved McIntosh onto him and shut him down.

Really? Who was McIntosh playing on in the last quarter?

Dunstall and Brereton finished with 10 goals between them. Presumably, none of them were kicked on McIntosh, though? Because even in his first year he was just shutting everyone down, right?

He played on some of the best players of all time as an teenager and shut them down. That's how good he was.

I think I've established that he wasn't our first-choice FB until 1996, after Brennan retired. He was still being thrown forward half the time until then.

But you can ignore that and keep repeating a debunked argument if you like.

Tell me more about the times he shut down Ablett and Lockett while still a teenager. Or is that bullshit?

Glass has had a long and consistent career but it never reached the heights that McIntosh did.

Quite obviously nonsense.

Glass has won three B&Fs and has been an elite FB longer than McIntosh was.

 

[Masto]

I never said he played well against Brereton in 91, threw him around like a ragdoll. But he learnt from that and became a very good player. Being more decorated doesn't make you a better player. Playing for longer doesn't make you a better player.