Unsolved Madeleine McCann

[sadie]

sadie, keep going, you're great value to this thread. How many other forums have you signed up to just so you can have this same discussion making the same out-dated points that you think are hot stuff when in reality they are as baseless as every other posters points in this thread?
Yeah yeah, i know, you joined here to discuss footy and have got mixed up in this discussion So why don't you take a break and tell us how you think Sydney are going to go this coming season? Which of their main stars is going to have an All Australian year and keep them at the pointy end of the competition? Surely Adam Goodes and Judus Bolten can't go on carrying this team forever so who out of Sydney's young brigade are going to have a break-out year and help the bloods push for a back to back year?

I look forward to hearing your response.

I make no pretence to be a football fan altho I really enjoyed visiting Sydney. I qualify tho, because our TV has footie on all day long ! .. and I lurve it !!! lol!

Tony Bennett was allowed here to put his side of the Mccann case and certain pros were invited to give their views so that you would get a balanced perspective. If you, snatch, dont want balanced views, then it says something about you.

This is a crime thread NOT a footioe thread.

 

[sadie]

Tony Bennett keep going. But why don't you take a break and tell us how you think Richmond are going to go this coming season? Which of their main stars is going to have an All Australian year? Who out of Richmond's young brigade are going to have a break-out year and help the tiggies push for a top 4 position?[/quote]

Oh pls dont get sorry for Tony Bennett. It is most unlikely that he is posting on his own. Almost certainly he will have a team of helpers behind the scenes. He usually has

The antis work very well as a team, ya know.

An example, the lawyer being talked about below is a man, Dr Joao Grade. THe Portuguese have problems translating gender, often calling a named man further down the script "she"

Tony Bennett post number 37

[quote]The previous lawyer only found out that she had been replaced days beforfe the trial of the five detectives, which began on 21 October 2008.[/quote]

Portuguese peeps have gender difficulties translating a named person as 'he' or 'she'. Very often a man will be called 'she' further down the paragraph. Almost certainly this paragraph was passed to Tony by a Portuguese anti, from? the PJ ?

Ah, at the 6th attempt I got my post through unchanged

 

[MistressChievious]

Tony Bennett.

"3. Taking the accounts of the McCanns and their friend Jane Tanner as truthful, Madeleine must have been taken during a time period of less than 5 minutes, between 9.10am and 9.15am that evening. No-one heard an abductor. No-one (save Jane Tanner, see next point) saw an abductor. The abductor left no forensic trace whatsoever"


Please could you expand on your final sentence within this point ie ' The abductor left no forensic trace whatsoever'.

The McCanns stayed in holiday rental apartment, used by possibly hundreds of holiday makers over the years, therefore what forensics would you have expected the PJ to have recovered and from where ?

 

[Tony Bennett]

Tony Bennett, keep going. But why don't you take a break and tell us how you think Richmond are going to go this coming season? Which of their main stars is going to have an All Australian year? Who out of Richmond's young brigade are going to have a break-out year and help the tiggies push for a top 4 position?

Richmond Football Club shares its name with one of the finest towns of England, Richmond-on-Thames, on the south-western outskirts of London. Just to the south is the famous and extensive Richmond Park, where a herd of deer roam freely. It's also known to us because of what is still, I think, its ground share with the Melbourne Cricket Ground, ot the 'MCG' as it's usually known by cricket fans.

Here in England we get ball-by-ball commentary on the cricket matches and over the years have had to endure listening to many a Test Match defeat by Australia.

But in 2010, history was made when England thrashed the Aussies by an innings to retain The Ashes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/england/9325266.stm

There's even a YouTube video featuring the match here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_N-JqfTWEg

As for who's going to perform for Richmond this year and where they'll end up, I've no idea. For a club with such a glittering history their near-demise a couple of decades ago was a shock.

If they have sufficient talent, and play as a team, they should do well

 

[muratfan]

Tony Bennett.

"3. Taking the accounts of the McCanns and their friend Jane Tanner as truthful, Madeleine must have been taken during a time period of less than 5 minutes, between 9.10am and 9.15am that evening. No-one heard an abductor. No-one (save Jane Tanner, see next point) saw an abductor. The abductor left no forensic trace whatsoever"


Please could you expand on your final sentence within this point ie ' The abductor left no forensic trace whatsoever'.

The McCanns stayed in holiday rental apartment, used by possibly hundreds of holiday makers over the years, therefore what forensics would you have expected the PJ to have recovered and from where ?

There was forensic recovered.However some was unidentifiable....some because stupid Officers didn't close down a crime scene and let everyone trample everywhere and contaminate evidence there, others because her family were looking for Madeleine, which any parent would do.
But it was up to the Police to close the crime scene down....not her parents

 

[Tony Bennett]

Tony Bennett.

"3. Taking the accounts of the McCanns and their friend Jane Tanner as truthful, Madeleine must have been taken during a time period of less than 5 minutes, between 9.10am and 9.15am that evening. No-one heard an abductor. No-one (save Jane Tanner, see next point) saw an abductor. The abductor left no forensic trace whatsoever"

Please could you expand on your final sentence within this point ie ' The abductor left no forensic trace whatsoever'.

The McCanns stayed in holiday rental apartment, used by possibly hundreds of holiday makers over the years, therefore what forensics would you have expected the PJ to have recovered and from where?

ANSWER: On the McCanns' own account, later changed and thoroughly discredited, the abductor broke through the window and shutters, jemmying them open, to steal Madeleine. Within 24 hours, the police and the Ocean Club managers were adamant that this story was false, there being no forensic evidence of a forced entry.

There was, however, and this is significant, the fingerprint of Dr Kate McCann found on the window frame of the children's bedroom - but no other prints.

The McCanns, stuck with proof that no abductor had forced entry to the holiday apartment, changed tack and said that they must have left the patio door unlocked, and that the abductor must have walked straight in and then, for some reason, have escaped, with Madeleine, via a small window, having first climbed on to the bed lying next to the window.

Again, there was no forensic evidence of this, e.g. no marks on the bedspread, no fingerprints nor other forensic traces around the bed, the windows and the shutters.

Dr Kate McCann, in a desperate attempt to explain why, as she claimed, she found the window open on arriving at her apartment at around 10.00pm on Thursday 3 May, when she reported Madeleine missing, claimed the abductor must have opened the window 'as a red herring'.

Leaving aside the specific stories promoted by the McCanns of how the abductor got in and out, an abductor would normally be expected to leave such forensic traces as:

* footprints or footmarks
* residue from where he had been walking outside
* DNA
* fingerprints.

Nothing like this was ever found - this was an abductor who left no forensic evidence, and wasn't heard or seen by anyone.

Unless you count the scarcely-believable evidence of the McCanns' close friend, Jane Tanner.

 

[Tony Bennett]

There was forensic recovered.

Please state, with reference to sources, what other forensic traces of a possible stranger abductor were found, not counting the DNA sample of saliva on the bedspread from a youngster who had been a recent holiday occupant of the apartment

 

[sadie]

Tony Bennett.

"3. Taking the accounts of the McCanns and their friend Jane Tanner as truthful, Madeleine must have been taken during a time period of less than 5 minutes, between 9.10am and 9.15am that evening. No-one heard an abductor. No-one (save Jane Tanner, see next point) saw an abductor. The abductor left no forensic trace whatsoever"


Please could you expand on your final sentence within this point ie ' The abductor left no forensic trace whatsoever'.

The McCanns stayed in holiday rental apartment, used by possibly hundreds of holiday makers over the years, therefore what forensics would you have expected the PJ to have recovered and from where ?

Hopefully Tony Bennett will respond to this. He already has in his own way. Lol!


The Mccanns reported the loss of Madeleine to OC very quickly requesting that the police be notified. OC very quickly set their emergency proceedure into action; staff were sent out searching etc. Along with Gerry Mccann and the Tapas group and dozens of other willing helpers who also searched.

However the Police did NOT respond as quickly as could have been with the GNR (local police) arriving first. The crime scene was NOT preserved and by the time the PJ had arrived it had been trampled over and anything of evidence destroyed. The PJ were very late arriving and it is my understanding that prior to making Kate and Gerry Arguidos, Ex Inspector Amaral who was chief, never visited the crime scene, nor did he interview Kate and Gerry Mccann. It is said that he carried on enjoying his restaurant meal before returning home, never bothering to visit the scene.

Almost certainly the abductor had a key and entered and left via the FRONT DOOR in the tucked awy and very hidden and also very dark N.E. CORNER of Flat 5A. This was NOT overlooked from any general direction, N E S or W. and it had a wall in front of it about chest height IIRC. (I have been there, looked and assessed)

The window was open after the abduction, but IMO was not used by any abductor. Probably opened for the following reasons

• To provide an escape route in an emergency
• to dissipate any fumes (chloriform or like?)
• To anable the actual lifter to pass things in/out to another person and receive encouragement/instructions. It is considered quite likely that there was a lifter, in the form of a female member of staff maybe from OC, who actually did the lifting ... someone who Madeleine knew and trusted.
• To allow natural light to illuminate the room (full moon the night before). Artificial light might have alerted passers by ( not many of them! - a very quiet resort and position within the resort.)
• There were a coupla more reasons that I cant recollect at this moment.

It is unlikely that the Patio doors to the South were used for entry because:
1) the Mccanns were sitting only a little over 50 metres away with a view of the patio doors and the steps and the patio itself.
2) The Front door mentioned previously was Gods gift to an abductor.

Most certainly the abductor did NOT leave via the patio doors.

If the front door was used with a key, then there would have been no sounds. The blind to Madeleines bedroom was raised, but from Peter Macs video, that seemed pretty silent and in any case, that was a sound that would be heard so often that neighbours wouldn't even notice it. The same with opening a window.

Just a little info here.

 

[muratfan]

Please state, with reference to sources, what other forensic traces of a possible stranger abductor were found, not counting the DNA sample of saliva on the bedspread from a youngster who had been a recent holiday occupant of the apartment

Read the full files Tony, not the interim reports, then you may understand the truth of everything. DNA found.....blood samples.....saliva samples...... hair samples.......

Forensics include FINGERPRINTS FOUND ON OUTSIDE OF SHUTTER BUT POLICE COULD NOT LINK THEM TO ANY PERSON.... Now that to me says that fingerprints were found belonging to perpetrator of the crime....KATES PRINTS WERE FOUND INSIDE, OTHERS OUTSIDE

 

[Tony Bennett]

Read the full files Tony, not the interim reports, then you may understand the truth of everything. DNA found.....blood samples.....saliva samples...... hair samples.......

Forensics include FINGERPRINTS FOUND ON OUTSIDE OF SHUTTER BUT POLICE COULD NOT LINK THEM TO ANY PERSON.... Now that to me says that fingerprints were found belonging to perpetrator of the crime....KATES PRINTS WERE FOUND INSIDE, OTHERS OUTSIDE

muratfan...

We know for certain that even if there was an abductor, he did not 'break in' via the shutters.

You have stated, but without providing either the police report or any other source, that 'fingerprints found on outside of shutter but police could not link them to any person'.

I am not sure how fingerprints found on the 'ouside of the shutters' is going to help your case, since my primary concern was to establish, as a fact, that no forensic evidence of a stranger in that apartment was found (aside from a young boy's saliva, or so we're informed by the forensic boffins).

If you are going to make an assertion such as this in the debate, kindly provide a link to the specific source in the police files that you rely on for making such an assertion ('fingerprints found on outside of shutter').

 

[sadie]

ANSWER: On the McCanns' own account, later changed and thoroughly discredited, the abductor broke through the window and shutters, jemmying them open, to steal Madeleine. Within 24 hours, the police and the Ocean Club managers were adamant that this story was false, there being no forensic evidence of a forced entry.

Window open, shutters up. The panic of the moment, dear Tony, but expressed in your own dramatic blaming way. These are purported to be the words of Kate/Gerry Mccann phoning their family immediaetely after their shocking discovery.

There was, however, and this is significant, the fingerprint of Dr Kate McCann found on the window frame of the children's bedroom - but no other prints.

I am amazed that there were not a multitude of finger prints on that window frame. Any parent confronted by an open window would immediately grasp the window frame and lean out peering all around. Maybe you wouldn't?

The McCanns, stuck with proof that no abductor had forced entry to the holiday apartment, changed tack and said that they must have left the patio door unlocked, and that the abductor must have walked straight in and then, for some reason, have escaped, with Madeleine, via a small window, having first climbed on to the bed lying next to the window.

I seem to recall that the Mccanns have been open about leaving the patio door (which they were 50 metres away from) unlocked right from the start.
It is impossible to lock these doors from the outside and Gerry and kate did their checks via that route. Try again Tony.

Again, there was no forensic evidence of this, e.g. no marks on the bedspread, no fingerprints nor other forensic traces around the bed, the windows and the shutters.

Gloves Tony and quite possibly a wig. Crime scene trampled over, then next day, we are told, the bedclothes were stripped off and laundered.
Yep stripped off and laundered! Jeez! What policing!

Dr Kate McCann, in a desperate attempt to explain why, as she claimed, she found the window open on arriving at her apartment at around 10.00pm on Thursday 3 May, when she reported Madeleine missing, claimed the abductor must have opened the window 'as a red herring'.

Ah that is one of the missing possibilities from my previous posting. Take the attention away from the door to the window .. and so take the attention away from the fact that a key was used. Therefore take away a pointer to the possibility that someone from Ocean club was involved.
Does this mean that someone from OC might have been involved?

 

[Ed_Gein]

As for who's going to perform for Richmond this year and where they'll end up, I've no idea. For a club with such a glittering history their near-demise a couple of decades ago was a shock.

9th.

 

[sadie]

Leaving aside the specific stories promoted by the McCanns of how the abductor got in and out, an abductor would normally be expected to leave such forensic traces as:

* footprints or footmarks
* residue from where he had been walking outside
* DNA
* fingerprints.

Nothing like this was ever found - this was an abductor who left no forensic evidence, and wasn't heard or seen by anyone.

Unless you count the scarcely-believable evidence of the McCanns' close friend, Jane Tanner.

This isn't muddy England, Tony. On a concrete footpath swept clean, what footprints would you expect to find? Any that might have been there were rapidly covered with other footprints because the Police failed to stop everyone going into that apartment.

What DNA were you expecting? Once again peeps thronging through the room and outside searching until 4 am. Just what DNA were you expecting? Be real Tony, purrleaze.

Finger prints done above.


He was seen and heard almost certainly, but Amaral made a point of NOT believing ANY British evidence. He wasted the GOLDEN EVIDENCE of Jane Tanner and Caroline Carpenter.

Some things almost make you think that Amaral was ........... [I leave you to guess!]

 

[muratfan]

Since Tony Bennett is saying he wants things to be correct, lets see if he will wish to correct himself on some aspects of this case, I am happy to debate with him. Will have to do it one by one so posts don't get lost

1.... Do you accept that both dogs Keela and Eddie, alert to living human scents, ie..dried blood and body scents. Any alert by the dogs have to be backed up by FORENSIC EVIDENCE, and there were none where the dogs alerted.
The blood on the car key fob was Gerry McCanns...do you accept that.

 

[muratfan]

muratfan...

We know for certain that even if there was an abductor, he did not 'break in' via the shutters.

You have stated, but without providing either the police report or any other source, that 'fingerprints found on outside of shutter but police could not link them to any person'.

I am not sure how fingerprints found on the 'ouside of the shutters' is going to help your case, since my primary concern was to establish, as a fact, that no forensic evidence of a stranger in that apartment was found (aside from a young boy's saliva, or so we're informed by the forensic boffins).

If you are going to make an assertion such as this in the debate, kindly provide a link to the specific source in the police files that you rely on for making such an assertion ('fingerprints found on outside of shutter').

Right Tony.....you are going to look rather stupid now


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FINGERPRINTS.htm

B - Pages 967-972 Processo vol 4.
At 11:00am on 4 May 2007 I, IT, assistant-specialist, began to examine the following location:
At apartment 5A, Ocean Club:

- Side of the patio door: One adequate print recovered but not matched to known persons.

- Outside of one patio door: Eight inadequate prints were recovered.- Outside of [the other] patio door: One inadequate print was recovered.- Outside of the external blinds to the children's bedroom: three inadequate

 

[muratfan]

'How long does a cadaver have to be in contact with a surface or an object for the odour to be detected''
Cross-contamination is immediate.



'Can the dog mix up traces of human odours with others that are non-human''
I cannot comment on what the dogs think.


'Based upon your experience with the dogs, can you specify whether the positive signals given by them have always matched the scientific results''
I cannot. In this case, for example, not all the alert signals have been investigated by the appropriate agencies in order to provide forensic comparations, in spite of indications to the contrary.

From Martin Grimes http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES_RIGATORY.htm

 

[muratfan]

During the meeting were exhibited videos with the details of search activities including the sniffer dogs lead by Martin GRIME. GRIME commented on the actions of the dogs and added that no confirmed evidence or information could be taken from the alerts by the dogs but needed to be confirmed with physical evidence.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON-RIGATORY.htm


So evidence Tony about the dogs...care to explain now please and discuss

 

[MistressChievious]

ANSWER: On the McCanns' own account, later changed and thoroughly discredited, the abductor broke through the window and shutters, jemmying them open, to steal Madeleine. Within 24 hours, the police and the Ocean Club managers were adamant that this story was false, there being no forensic evidence of a forced entry.

There was, however, and this is significant, the fingerprint of Dr Kate McCann found on the window frame of the children's bedroom - but no other prints.

The McCanns, stuck with proof that no abductor had forced entry to the holiday apartment, changed tack and said that they must have left the patio door unlocked, and that the abductor must have walked straight in and then, for some reason, have escaped, with Madeleine, via a small window, having first climbed on to the bed lying next to the window.

Again, there was no forensic evidence of this, e.g. no marks on the bedspread, no fingerprints nor other forensic traces around the bed, the windows and the shutters.

Dr Kate McCann, in a desperate attempt to explain why, as she claimed, she found the window open on arriving at her apartment at around 10.00pm on Thursday 3 May, when she reported Madeleine missing, claimed the abductor must have opened the window 'as a red herring'.

Leaving aside the specific stories promoted by the McCanns of how the abductor got in and out, an abductor would normally be expected to leave such forensic traces as:

* footprints or footmarks
* residue from where he had been walking outside
* DNA
* fingerprints.

Nothing like this was ever found - this was an abductor who left no forensic evidence, and wasn't heard or seen by anyone.

Unless you count the scarcely-believable evidence of the McCanns' close friend, Jane Tanner.

Thank you for your reply.

Having read the excellent replies from other posters to the points you have made above, I shall await your response in due course prior to replying.

 

[sadie]

Thank you for your reply.

Having read the excellent replies from other posters to the points you have made above, I shall await your response in due course prior to replying.

Tony

I think MistressChevious is addressing you, as i have given my detailed response.

So how about responding? Please

 

[Carana]

I'm skim-reading.

I'll wake up when anyone explains to me why 10 hairs were found on the child's bed by the Portuguese forensic police, but the Portuguese forensic lab only received 4.

Count the hairs (marker no. 3). I count 10.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2316.jpg

Then check this. The PT lab states that Envelope no. 3 only contained 4 hairs from her bed.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2427.jpg

What on earth happened to the others?

 

[Carana]

And while we're at it...

They DID find traces, but nothing that was of much use. I doubt that doggie pawprints covered in fingerprint powder really helped them to recover anything useful in terms of shoeprints.

09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2312 Photos 21 to 23: Displays of the the bedroom with two single beds of the target apartment.

Then began the detailed observation of the apartment interior ending with the search and recovery of forensic trace material relevant to the present examination.
Initially the search began for latent shoe-prints it being verified that dozens existed on the floor, in the various rooms of the apartment, which invalidated the attempt of identifying those of the perpetrator. Also, innumerable tracks [footprints] that were taken to be CANINE in origin mixed with red- and white-coloured chemical products, as used to see fingerprints, and an enormous quantity of hairs probably of animal (DOG) origin that made it difficult to find possible traces, especially in the bedroom of two single beds and two children's cots from where the minor disappeared, and next to the aluminium window/door leading from inside the living room to the exterior area behind the apartment.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm

 

[sadie]

I'm skim-reading.

I'll wake up when anyone explains to me why 10 hairs were found on the child's bed by the Portuguese forensic police, but the Portuguese forensic lab only received 4.

Count the hairs (marker no. 3). I count 10.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2316.jpg

Then check this. The PT lab states that Envelope no. 3 only contained 4 hairs from her bed.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2427.jpg

What on earth happened to the others?

Jeez! Well spotted Carana

As I said before:

Some things almost make you think that Amaral was ........... [I leave you to guess!]

 

[MistressChievious]

And while we're at it...

They DID find traces, but nothing that was of much use. I doubt that doggie pawprints covered in fingerprint powder really helped them to recover anything useful in terms of shoeprints.

09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2312 Photos 21 to 23: Displays of the the bedroom with two single beds of the target apartment.

Then began the detailed observation of the apartment interior ending with the search and recovery of forensic trace material relevant to the present examination.
Initially the search began for latent shoe-prints it being verified that dozens existed on the floor, in the various rooms of the apartment, which invalidated the attempt of identifying those of the perpetrator. Also, innumerable tracks [footprints] that were taken to be CANINE in origin mixed with red- and white-coloured chemical products, as used to see fingerprints, and an enormous quantity of hairs probably of animal (DOG) origin that made it difficult to find possible traces, especially in the bedroom of two single beds and two children's cots from where the minor disappeared, and next to the aluminium window/door leading from inside the living room to the exterior area behind the apartment.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm

@ Tony Bennett,

Have you read this before ?

It really is worth noting the comments made, especially in respect of the footprints.

 

[Carana]

Dunno, Sadie. Amaral wasn't there (there are many ways of coordinating an investigation, as he has said). And he was made arguido himself on 4 May in the Cipriano fiasco, so I guess he may have had other things on his mind.

 

[muratfan]

Bennett is currently trying to recruit a translator on his site....god knows why when he says he has the full PJ files and knows what they say....obviously he hasn't got them and relies on the interim files