Official Club Stuff Expression of Interest - Port Player Database

[AFuss_PAFC]

Thanks for posting Andrew and also for getting this up and running

With point 2, do you know if the club/historian kept details on team squads from individual games and also subsequently best players/goalkickers from those games going back x amount of years? Would be good to have something as an end product similar to say AFL Tables where you can click on a round and view which players played in that round etc.

John definitely has details of all our Premiership teams - goalkickers, best, line-ups etc, but whether he has that for every game played, I'm not sure. Agree AFL Tables is a great goal for an end product.

I'll document these questions and ask John when I give him a call.

 

[Ford Fairlane]

Andrew I will put my hand up to do pieces on the 1977, 79, 80 and 81 premierships.

I was at all of them and as they were over 30 years ago my memory of them is good.

Just remind me in 5 minutes that I agreed to do this.

 

[Macca19]

I'll put my hand up for 1988 & 1994 to begin with

 

[AFuss_PAFC]

I'll throw my name in for point 2.

I think we probably need to decide on a template for data to be populated - be it s spreadsheet, xml schema, csv file etc.

So long as everything is entered in a common format, exporting it to whatever format is needed will be very easy.

Agreed. I'm far from an expert in spreadsheets and the like, so am happy to be guided from anyone who has any expertise on what would work best.

I think the first step is deciding what information we'd collect on each player. Do we all agree on the following:

Career span at club
Debut
Cap no.
Numbers worn
Club games
Club goals
Last game
DOB
Premierships

 

[Malibu#27]

Agreed. I'm far from an expert in spreadsheets and the like, so am happy to be guided from anyone who has any expertise on what would work best.

I think the first step is deciding what information we'd collect on each player. Do we all agree on the following:

Career span at club
Debut
Cap no.
Numbers worn
Club games
Club goals
Last game
DOB
Premierships

I'm happy with that.

Spreadsheet looks fine, but thinking about it, if we use a .csv file it will allow for peoplewithout excel or spreadsheet skills to participate as well. .csv are easy to import into excell as well.

something like:
"<career span>;<debut>;<cap no>;<numbers worn>;<games>;<goals>;<last game>;<DOB>;<premierships - comma seperated>"
would do as a real simple example, as a text file making it very easy for people with scripting skills to perform magic

 

[Macca19]

I think that information on each player would be fine. If its possible to get kick/handball/mark/goal stats on games (depending what the historian has) then that would be great if its achievable

 

[The Smaller Warrior]

Im happy to help aswell with what ever I can.

Andrew Fuss can have my babies.*

*everything I post on BigFooty should not be taken seriously. Apart from this post.

 

[Macca19]

Just confirming ive got all quarter by quarter scores of all our SANFL games from 1907 through to 2006 (working on 07 onwards) and the majority of crowd scores from the 20s onwards.

 

[kaysee]

First up, welcome to BigFooty and the Port board Andrew.

I'm happy to help out with point #2.

Whatever we data decisions are made we need to be mindful of a few things:

a - obviously, they need to align with the what the project is trying to achieve.
b - as best as possible, they should also try to align to future revisions of the product (even if they're not implemented in the initial release).
c - the process for data collection needs to be simple and consistant to use... since we're utilizing a broad user group for data collection.
d - more importantly the data needs to collected in a way that keeps it's intergrity as strong as possible.
e - after deciding what and how make sure the DB field types suit the fields and are generous (especially with string/text based fields). This isn't a finance transactional DB where performance is critical, plus HDD space is extremely cheap, so there's no need to skimp on field sizing for optimisation.

To re-use the common saying about data within systems: put s**t data in and you get s**t data out. I think a few of us have seen examples of that in the past.

... I'll probably think of some other areas as down the path, but for now they're my immediate thoughts.


Malibu... RE spreadsheet vs CSV vs other options.

* for others unfamiliar... CSV = comma separated values. It is a type of file that contains text information in a CSV format, where each value is separated by a comma. Something like "Kaysee, 08/12/1973, 01/07/2001, Adelaide, male, Port Adelaide"

1) I'm not sure about CSV. Sure people not exposed to Excel can easily create CSV files, but it requires more manual editing by the users, which leaves it more susceptible to human errors (which everyone makes... except TSW cause he's immaculate ). My initial thoughts are still that Excel would be a better choice (even for the un-initiated). It is pretty easy to use (especially after the 1st couple of entries), data being entered can easily be forced into a specific format or error checked... plus users are actually building some computer skills. Using excel would be a better 1st step in ensuring the data that is loaded is good data.

For those without Excel it is now available "in the cloud" as an online application. You just need to have a Windows Live/Hotmail account in order to access. A good "cheat sheet" help guide could be created to assist those who need it in order to access Excel and populate the file with the data.


Andrew Fuss... some queries about the fields.

2) The fields you've listed is great for the presentation side of things. What data is collected and stored might be different though. Should the data collected actually be more normalised and then rolled up for this preseantation layer?? That is a far bigger project, with bigger scope and is perhaps something we don't want to approach at this point in time... which is fine... just something to keep in mind and aligned with any future directions for the project.

3) As for the scope of the players data... "Career span at the club"... how SANFL/AFL history makes this a bit tricky (and I think we can all agree this has been a tricky hurdle in the past). Consider the following player scenario and how would it play out within the DB:

Gavin Wanganeen
- made his SANFL debut in 1990 with PAFC.
- played 24 SANFL games with PAFC.
- kicked 46 SANFL goals with PAFC.
...
- made his AFL debut in 1991 with Essendon.
- played 127 AFL games with Essendon.
- kicked 64 AFL goals with Essendon.
...
- made his AFL debut* in 1997 with PAFC (* as in PAFC AFL debut).
- played 173 AFL games with PAFC.
- kicked 138 goals with PAFC.

So with applying the scope of "career span at the club" would we be happy stating:

- he debuted in 1990.
- played 197 games for the club.
- kicked 184 goals for the club.

The above isn't too bad, but it does get trickier when looking at individual player accolades and where they achieved them. Gavin's brownlow medal the obvious example. As I stated... we just need to be very clear about the information we collect/use and ensure this is communicated to the data collectors. With players playing in different leagues and clubs it can be an easy thing for people to get wrong when collecting the data.

That's it for now... I've gotta get some of my own work done.

Will keep adding as things come to mind... and am happy for further input and to build on ideas.

Cheers
SKC

 

[Malibu#27]

Malibu... RE spreadsheet vs CSV vs other options.

* for others unfamiliar... CSV = comma separated values. It is a type of file that contains text information in a CSV format, where each value is separated by a comma. Something like "Kaysee, 08/12/1973, 01/07/2001, Adelaide, male, Port Adelaide"

1) I'm not sure about CSV. Sure people not exposed to Excel can easily create CSV files, but it requires more manual editing by the users, which leaves it more susceptible to human errors (which everyone makes... except TSW cause he's immaculate ). My initial thoughts are still that Excel would be a better choice (even for the un-initiated). It is pretty easy to use (especially after the 1st couple of entries), data being entered can easily be forced into a specific format or error checked... plus users are actually building some computer skills. Using excel would be a better 1st step in ensuring the data that is loaded is good data.

Kaysee, Agree with everything you say re, CSV v Excel.

I was thinking that the rawer the format the better, as it allows toolsmiths to throw together some grep/sed/perl type expressions to craft a lot of the data for us, but thinking about it, I guess we could still do this and then import to excel afterwards. (bugger typing it all if we can avoid it)

Likewise I guess there's no reason we cant export the other way if needed as well, so I'm happy with excel as the template.

 

[Macca19]

Gavin Wanganeen
- made his SANFL debut in 1990 with PAFC.
- played 24 SANFL games with PAFC.
- kicked 46 SANFL goals with PAFC.
...
- made his AFL debut in 1991 with Essendon.
- played 127 AFL games with Essendon.
- kicked 64 AFL goals with Essendon.
...
- made his AFL debut* in 1997 with PAFC (* as in PAFC AFL debut).
- played 173 AFL games with PAFC.
- kicked 138 goals with PAFC.

So with applying the scope of "career span at the club" would we be happy stating:

- he debuted in 1990.
- played 197 games for the club.
- kicked 184 goals for the club.

I reckon something like "1990, 1997-2006" would be the way to go?

 

[AFuss_PAFC]

Hi guys, sorry for the delay in getting back to this thread.

I'll break this down between the two different areas.

First, in regards to getting articles/descriptions of our Premierships, Macca19 and Ford Fairlane have put their hands up to help out. Ford, I have you down for 1977, 79, 80 and 81 and Macca, I have you down for 88 and 94. We've already done 63 and 96, but all other Premierships are available.

You can see a couple of examples of what we're after on our Premiership page here. Don't feel limited in what you'd like to include though. If you've got the Budget from a certain GF, scan the cover in and send it through with the article. The more detail, the better.

If you'd like to help out with this project, just reply to this thread with which Premiership/s you'd be interested in researching and writing about.

Second, I've had a chat to our historian John Sincock about our player database. He's had a few computer troubles and he's currently in the process of re-entering a whole heap of data from down the years - don't worry nothing has been lost!

It seems this is going to be a fairly large project and one that I'll have to dedicate a bit of time to, so if you're ok with it, I'll hold it off until after the season. Just need to get my head around exactly what data we need and how we collect and collate it. As Kaysee outlined above, it's quite a complicated process. I certainly see it as something that's important to the club and our fans, and once the initial work is done, it'll be easy to add to each year.

Thanks for your patience

 

[AFuss_PAFC]

Just confirming ive got all quarter by quarter scores of all our SANFL games from 1907 through to 2006 (working on 07 onwards) and the majority of crowd scores from the 20s onwards.

Again, this may be an off-season thing, but I've seen the Bombers have something similar to this here. Certainly something we'd be interested in doing and again, a big project to undertake, but would be easy to maintain year-to-year thereafter.

 

[AFuss_PAFC]

Im happy to help aswell with what ever I can.

Andrew Fuss can have my babies.*

*everything I post on BigFooty should not be taken seriously. Apart from this post.

Haha, thanks for the support mate, always nice to know someone likes the work we do. Can be tough at times after a rough month on the field!

 

[tribey]

1977, the year that followed 1976.

 

[Gough]

This is a great project guys and one that could only be pulled off by one club in this state, man. I recall that in the 90's the State Library had old editions of local papers on microfiche which might help you guys find some of the information that you are looking for.
Good luck with this project and all the best for the upcoming season.

 

[portfan36]

This is a great project guys and one that could only be pulled off by one club in this state, man. I recall that in the 90's the State Library had old editions of local papers on microfiche which might help you guys find some of the information that you are looking for.
Good luck with this project and all the best for the upcoming season.

Thanks Gough and I for one hope the Hawks are Premiers in 2013. If not, the Swans for the Tippett laughs

 

[Eddie Dingle]

If any of you haven't seen Cornes' concession speech or at least haven't in some time, it is some of the most cringeworthy viewing of all time. His accompanying captain doesn't know where to look after his own gracious words and at any moment you expect to see a stubbie, boot or other inanimate object fly at Graam's head.

The restraint from the massed victors was amazing.

A rumour went around that night about what wrinkles actually said and it was far worse than what he actually said. I know of two car loads of blokes who set off to Glenelg from where we were drinking in North Adelaide to teach some people some manners on Grand Final night 1990. Never did find out the end result of that.

 

[Asgardian]

If any of you haven't seen Cornes' concession speech or at least haven't in some time, it is some of the most cringeworthy viewing of all time. His accompanying captain doesn't know where to look after his own gracious words and at any moment you expect to see a stubbie, boot or other inanimate object fly at Graam's head.

The restraint from the massed victors was amazing.

 

[radiojake]

Hardly gracious at all -

Is it normal for a losing coach and captain to address the winning team like that? Hopefully McDermott didn't sound so whingy...

You have to wonder how Hodges, Tregenza, Brown, Smith etc managed to play under Cornes just the very next season...

Port aims for the national stage...

Awesomely written..

I've always been fairly interested in how it came to be that Port nearly joined the AFL -but have never read anything with that much detail. I was only 6 years old when that happened and I don't remember any of it. My first taste of Victorian football was when I went to Football Park to see the pre-season trial game between Port Adelaide and Geelong... (was that 1990?)

I wonder how different it would've been if it Port Adelaide managed to join for that 1991 season and the Crows weren't formed... Would we have seen either Norwood or Sturt join in the mid-90s?

 

[Ebert80]

Sturt were on a par with both Port Elliott and Callington in the mid 90's. There's no way in the world they would have joined the AFL after their spoon-a-thon, dating back to 1989.

 

[bomberclifford]

I wonder how different it would've been if The Redlegs didn't bottle it and Port Adelaide managed to join for that 1991 season to be followed by Norwood in the mid-90s?

FTFY

 

[Jones2ByrneJones]

Having Port, Norwood and Sturt in the AFL would have been great.

 

[radiojake]

Sturt were on a par with both Port Elliott and Callington in the mid 90's. There's no way in the world they would have joined the AFL after their spoon-a-thon, dating back to 1989.

Yeah good point, I forgot about their poor run at the time

FTFY

I got the impression it was a Glenelg lead intervention? Although it wouldn't suprise me if Norwood were right there too...

Great read this thread - Bit of a history lesson - Thanks

 

[bomberclifford]

I got the impression it was a Glenelg lead intervention? Although it wouldn't suprise me if Norwood were right there too...

The story goes that Port weren't the only club talking to the VFL and that the other club lost its nerve right before the deal was finalised. The SANFL found out, took out an injunction stopping Port from talking to the VFL and ... here we are today.