ASADA relied on 'vague' accounts - The Australian 27/12/13

[yaco55]

You do understand once it has been approved it then becomes subject to S2-S9 don't you?

But at what stage - And what is the time lapse ?

 

[The Dodger]

But its not a level playing field if the substance is banned by Governments in many countries. And to use this approved product, you must source it from overseas, and of course, you could be stopped by customs. And of course you open up the ' Black Market '.

And if the Eastern Bloc was still a force, they would have exploited the SO code.

They can only do so much. They are trying to bring transparency to a shady area of sports. They cannot be a medical omnipotent force around the world hence if you fall on the wrong side of the WADA code you deserved to be punished as their ability to catch people is rather small.

Its about fair play and providing fairness for athletes…they are not a law. If athletes wish to subvert them then there is nothing they can do to stop that attempt but if you are caught that is why the penalties can be harsh.

 

[Cronos]

According to the WADA, SO code, if a country has given a substance therapuetic approved its right to go. So in other words a tin pot country gives approval WADA is unconcerned. WE are discussing the application of the SO Code in a general sense, we are not discussing Hirs/Dank/Armstrong etc.

Congratulations. You've described S0 as far as WADA are concerned. After all this time you finally understand it.

So what's your point now?

 

[BigJoeD_]

Ah another throw away line. With no meaning.

Do you really believe that a longer investigation = a lesser likelihood of bad news?

Or are ASADA a part of the global conspiracy against Essendon too? "Nothing to see here" is easy, and clears your desk for something else. If there's nothing to see, there's no reason at all to delay saying so.

No conspiracy theorist here I can assure you.

The central figure in both the AFL & NRL seems to be Dank - and yet to the best of my knowledge ASADA are yet to speak to him. When do you think they will get around to it?

Wouldn't have thought either investigation should be concluded without at least attempting to garner his input. You?

These are government bureaucrats we are talking about here - excuse me if I am a little cynical.

 

[Cronos]

But its not a level playing field if the substance is banned by Governments in many countries. And to use this approved product, you must source it from overseas, and of course, you could be stopped by customs. And of course you open up the ' Black Market '.

And if the Eastern Bloc was still a force, they would have exploited the SO code.

WADA are not in a position to control governments. All they've done is set up a list of things that are prohibited or not. If WADA prohibit them, then nobody can use them.

 

[Cronos]

Wouldn't have thought either investigation should be concluded without at least attempting to garner his input. You?

I note the investigation has yet to be concluded.

What was your point.

 

[LanceRomance]

You gotta admit though, that's a lot of 'I's and a lot of 'T's

If ASADA are trying to dot Capital "i's" and cross Capital "t's" then no wonder it is taking so long

 

[BigJoeD_]

I note the investigation has yet to be concluded.

What was your point.

After all this time, ASADA are yet to talk to the key man.
The point is self explanatory.

 

[Cronos]

After all this time, ASADA are yet to talk to the key man.
The point is self explanatory.

And the investigation is ongoing. I'm sure they'll ask his opinion when they already know what his answers should be. Sure helps filter the garbage.

 

[jenny61_99]

You gotta admit though, that's a lot of 'I's and a lot of 'T's

Let's hope they get it right - because that's what they are spending all this time doing. From both sides we want them to get this right - because it's players careers we are talking about - but as important is the integrity of the game (which, lets face it, is in absolute tatters at the minute). I don't want to see players banned - but I can't see how infraction notices can't be issued - UNLESS, there is significant evidence that we haven't seen to date that absolves them from strict liability. I just can't see how that could possibly happen unless they can prove they were told they were getting something and were given something completely different. And even then, I can't see how bans won't be forthcoming. It's all such a big, big mess.

 

[Laphroaig]

No conspiracy theorist here I can assure you.

The central figure in both the AFL & NRL seems to be Dank - and yet to the best of my knowledge ASADA are yet to speak to him. When do you think they will get around to it?

Wouldn't have thought either investigation should be concluded without at least attempting to garner his input. You?

These are government bureaucrats we are talking about here - excuse me if I am a little cynical.

I'd make an educated guess that the investigators are ex cops with high achievement records working on contract. ASADA permanent staff are not many given their broad responsibilities.

And, FWIW, as a business owner who does some consultancy work with government I have the opinion that government has pretty much the same ratio of space wasters and people you wouldn't trust as private enterprise does.

 

[yaco55]

Congratulations. You've described S0 as far as WADA are concerned. After all this time you finally understand it.

So what's your point now?

My point is what I have argued for the last three days. That the SO code is one that only has a short term future, unless it is modified.

 

[BigJoeD_]

I'd make an educated guess that the investigators are ex cops with high achievement records working on contract. ASADA permanent staff are not many given their broad responsibilities.

And, FWIW, as a business owner who does some consultancy work with government I have the opinion that government has pretty much the same ratio of space wasters and people you wouldn't trust as private enterprise does.

Fair enough.

FWIW, as someone in Project Management I have an ideal that while accuracy and quality is key, there is an obvious requirement for cost effectiveness.

You would hope there would be someone in Canberra thinking along the same lines - those subbies you mention would be expensive!

 

[Cronos]

My point is what I have argued for the last three days. That the SO code is one that only has a short term future, unless it is modified.

I think S0 does exactly what it's supposed to. Stops people using anything not tested.

If anything gets through testing, then the info is available to either categorise it into existing sections (now that enough is known on the substance), create a new section should a new one be required, or show that the substance is safe, and not performance enhancing.

 

[SunshineBoy]

Fair enough.

FWIW, as someone in Project Management I have an ideal that while accuracy and quality is key, there is an obvious requirement for cost effectiveness.

You would hope there would be someone in Canberra thinking along the same lines - those subbies you mention would be expensive!

so is the asylum camp in manus.

 

[Laphroaig]

You would hope there would be someone in Canberra thinking along the same lines - those subbies you mention would be expensive!

I'll put on my consultant's hat and observe that someone with my expertise costs heaps as a conventional employee, and you'd want to have 365 days of work a year using it.

Otherwise you might consider that my hourly rate is a big number; but you don't have to give me a car, super, leave pay, an office, a computer, a telephone, a mobile, travel expenses, an admino, etc. etc. And when I'm finished the job you're not paying me to wait for the next job.

Though I must admit that there is another major advantage to consultants. They get paid, and they're gone. Nobody can be blamed, except the consultant who doesn't give a shit after the payment comes through.

Not that I'd suggest that as significant in the reported outcome. We professionally live and die on the quality of the work. The fact that it later becomes deniable by the department is a bonus.

 

[BigJoeD_]

I'll put on my consultant's hat and observe that someone with my expertise costs heaps as a conventional employee, and you'd want to have 365 days of work a year using it.

Otherwise you might consider that my hourly rate is a big number; but you don't have to give me a car, super, leave pay, an office, a computer, a telephone, a mobile, travel expenses, an admino, etc. etc. And when I'm finished the job you're not paying me to wait for the next job.

Though I must admit that there is another major advantage to consultants. They get paid, and they're gone. Nobody can be blamed, except the consultant who doesn't give a shit after the payment comes through.

Not that I'd suggest that as significant in the reported outcome. We professionally live and die on the quality of the work. The fact that it later becomes deniable by the department is a bonus.

I agree - but in this case, and with the exception of WADA, surely the expedition of the investigation is of benefit to the key stakeholders?

 

[QuietB]

No conspiracy theorist here I can assure you.

The central figure in both the AFL & NRL seems to be Dank - and yet to the best of my knowledge ASADA are yet to speak to him. When do you think they will get around to it?

Wouldn't have thought either investigation should be concluded without at least attempting to garner his input. You?

These are government bureaucrats we are talking about here - excuse me if I am a little cynical.

Probably the best time is him last when they have as much information as possible. Also, remember they have access to the ACC report even though they not be able to use it as evidence. They know exactly what Dank has done already. All they Dank or someone else to do is verify it.

 

[Laphroaig]

I agree - but in this case, and with the exception of WADA, surely the expedition of the investigation is of benefit to the key stakeholders?

True. But getting it wrong serves the interests of nobody.

I have no idea what is going on behind closed doors. I do, however, subscribe to the belief that while we wait something is happening. Everyone loves to get a dead file off their desk.

 

[jenny61_99]

I agree - but in this case, and with the exception of WADA, surely the expedition of the investigation is of benefit to the key stakeholders?

ASADA just doesn't and can't work to our timetable though. It is very important for everyone involved that they get it right. I'd rather players not get banned because people are sick and tired of waiting and they feel pressured to get a result. If players are to be banned, or not, I want to be sure they got it very right - no matter how long it takes.

 

[Boxhead_31]

But at what stage - And what is the time lapse ?

Once a substance no longer meets the following:

Any pharmacological substance which is not addressed by any of the

subsequent sections of the List and with no current approval by any
governmental regulatory health authority for human therapeutic use (e.g
drugs under pre-clinical or clinical development or discontinued, designer
drugs, substances approved only for veterinary use) is prohibited at all

times.

Once approval has been given by a government regulator WADA once informed then looks at seeing if the substance falls against any of the other clauses.

The list of banned substances for 2014 according to WADA can be found here notice the S0 clause.

 

[BigJoeD_]

ASADA just doesn't and can't work to our timetable though. It is very important for everyone involved that they get it right. I'd rather players not get banned because people are sick and tired of waiting and they feel pressured to get a result. If players are to be banned, or not, I want to be sure they got it very right - no matter how long it takes.

I was not referring to you or I as the key stakeholders Jenny

 

[vjknight]

These are government bureaucrats we are talking about here - excuse me if I am a little cynical.

and essendon officials & coaches - are we granted same ?

 

[BigJoeD_]

and essendon officials & coaches - are we granted same ?

It seems I don't have a choice VJ...

 

[DonsRule]

ASADA just doesn't and can't work to our timetable though. It is very important for everyone involved that they get it right. I'd rather players not get banned because people are sick and tired of waiting and they feel pressured to get a result. If players are to be banned, or not, I want to be sure they got it very right - no matter how long it takes.

Agree, only one I have on that is, I think they should offer that statement, as reported by Gerard Wately on the interim report that ASADA would issue a public statement regarding it's use of AOD 9604 prior to WADA's statement on April 22.