Pat Cummins returns.....

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Not sure about the most talented young bowler of all-time, but he's got what it takes to be the best in the world. If he and Patto can stay healthy, the future of Australian bowling is incredibly bright. Do want to see these 2 in action together.
 
amer said:
Golly, you're right. Bowling has nothing to do with what we're talking about. More to it, what relevance does Cummins having bowled more deliveries to this point in his life than nearly any quick before him have to do with anything when his actual workload is magicked away with the words "Cummins has not bowled a single ball in years" from someone named - wait for it - Showbags, on an internet forum.

If you walked into the Centre of Excellence tomorrow saying the things you're saying here, do you have any idea how stupid you would be made to feel? Do you have any idea how ignorant you are and how inflated your sense of understanding of this cricketer's situation is?

I repeat, you don't know -anything-
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Its a whole different thing bowling at the Centre of Excellence with "managed workloads" and only being able to bowl a certain amount of deliveries per day rather than being asked to bowl 25-30 overs per day in a match situation and then have to backup the next day and do the same thing. You are clearly a clueless moron. How is my name on an internet forum relevant to anything.

How has he had that much more of a workload than most other fast bowlers (yes I accept he has had more than most from a young age but it isn't anything to write home about). He has not played a FC game for over 2 years (which by CA's planning will be extended to 4-5 years) and has been limited to only bowling short form spells sporadically. He has barely played a Grade Cricket match either (and only bowled 5 overs for Perth CC on the weekend).

My whole point was that there are plenty of former great fast bowlers who say that bowling in Shield or long form games is what is required to be able to handle that workload in the long term. If CA don't allow him to do that then he will never play for Australia in Test Cricket again and will be a short form specialist (his action and body may dictate that to happen anyway). I hate this managed workload stuff because it flies in the face of years of bowling development and the history of developing fast bowlers. Obviously if the guy is injured then you rest him. But if he is fit to bowl he should be bowling long spells and often. The reason why so many young bowlers are getting injured so consistently is because they have never been asked to do it before and when they are asked to do it their bodies are not capable of handling the wear and tear.

If you think that T20 and ODD Cricket where you might bowl 3-4 over spells here or there is going to get him ready for Test Cricket then you are the person that knows nothing about Cricket dipstick.
 
Ive prepared myself to be patient for a long road back for Pat. He's only 20 he needs time and hopefully he can play some shield cricket sooner rather than later.

is he planning on staying in perth? Or just until the BBL is over?
 

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Showbags said:
Its a whole different thing bowling at the Centre of Excellence with "managed workloads" and only being able to bowl a certain amount of deliveries per day rather than being asked to bowl 25-30 overs per day in a match situation and then have to backup the next day and do the same thing. You are clearly a clueless moron. How is my name on an internet forum relevant to anything.

How has he had that much more of a workload than most other fast bowlers (yes I accept he has had more than most from a young age but it isn't anything to write home about). He has not played a FC game for over 2 years (which by CA's planning will be extended to 4-5 years) and has been limited to only bowling short form spells sporadically. He has barely played a Grade Cricket match either (and only bowled 5 overs for Perth CC on the weekend).

My whole point was that there are plenty of former great fast bowlers who say that bowling in Shield or long form games is what is required to be able to handle that workload in the long term. If CA don't allow him to do that then he will never play for Australia in Test Cricket again and will be a short form specialist (his action and body may dictate that to happen anyway). I hate this managed workload stuff because it flies in the face of years of bowling development and the history of developing fast bowlers. Obviously if the guy is injured then you rest him. But if he is fit to bowl he should be bowling long spells and often. The reason why so many young bowlers are getting injured so consistently is because they have never been asked to do it before and when they are asked to do it their bodies are not capable of handling the wear and tear.

If you think that T20 and ODD Cricket where you might bowl 3-4 over spells here or there is going to get him ready for Test Cricket then you are the person that knows nothing about Cricket dipstick.
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:rolleyes:

You're beyond help.
 
DeadlyAkkuret said:
He's a WA player now? Did I miss something?
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I don't think he's playing Shield for them (may well be wrong), but he signed with the Scorchers.
 
Pykie said:
There are a few doubters out there, which prompted me to ask Damien Flemming at a boxing day breakfast at the MCC about him. He said he did a bit of work with him at the COE in Brisbane, he flat out described him as possibly our most talented young bowler of all time, certainly in the time since the pathways were created. He said he can do absolutely everything with a cricket ball, move it both ways, cuts it, and he has the pace and bounce of Curtly Ambrose. He said injury permitting he will become the #1 bowler in the world......
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Ever heard shifter Sheahan say a bad word about a talented junior football prospect?
 
amer said:
:rolleyes:

You're beyond help.
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Pathetic comeback. And your the one that said I know nothing about Cricket. Maybe stick to the BBL and short forms mate. Leave the real Cricket to people who actually know something about it.
 
amer said:
Golly, you're right. Bowling has nothing to do with what we're talking about. More to it, what relevance does Cummins having bowled more deliveries to this point in his life than nearly any quick before him have to do with anything when his actual workload is magicked away with the words "Cummins has not bowled a single ball in years" from someone named - wait for it - Showbags, on an internet forum.

If you walked into the Centre of Excellence tomorrow saying the things you're saying here, do you have any idea how stupid you would be made to feel? Do you have any idea how ignorant you are and how inflated your sense of understanding of this cricketer's situation is?

I repeat, you don't know -anything-
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There is zero evidence to support that.

It's possible he has bowled more in FC or representative cricket.

But other blokes will be playing 1st grade cricket in which they would be bowling, not to mention net bowling.

There is no way to track how many deliveries a bowler has bowled by age 20.

Add in, for those not on the development path from early on - they may play a combination of 1st grade cricket and school cricket thus doubling their workloads.

Ultimately bowling is very physically demanding and it takes a mature body to be able to handle the rigours consistently. A mature body that a 19 year old won't have.I do think the bio mechanics of changing action works in reducing stress imparted on the body.

I'm not convinced though that reducing workloads is an effective way to eek out additional games over the course of a career. That's not to say you flog a bloke to death, but ultimately test cricket is demanding, and you only need to look at Boyd Rankin cramping to realise that match fitness is built by bowling ball after ball, day after day.
 
You're right in that there is no evidence available for public consumption by people with names like showbags, but the young man is breaking down because he has bowled an extraordinary number of overs for his age, not because he isn't being prepared to handle a test workload.
 
amer said:
You're right in that there is no evidence available for public consumption by people with names like showbags, but the young man is breaking down because he has bowled an extraordinary number of overs for his age, not because he isn't being prepared to handle a test workload.
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So let me get this straight. You believe that a few years of T20 and ODD Cricket will prepare Cummins for Test Cricket?
 

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I don't understand the anger and insecurity. Settle down friend.

Look, put whatever emotion is going on aside. Saying "bowling at the centre of excellence is not going to prepare him for test matches" or something similar doesn't make any point of any sort. Those are just words, no content behind them. It feels good to have an opinion, but if it's not based on good enough (or any) information then your point is...basically an array of garbled sounds. I do -know- that Cummins has bowled a hell of a lot of overs for his age. You can choose not to believe that, and that's fair enough. I can't give you concrete evidence for it. But it is true, and it is the reason he is having these growing pains. It's the workload, not the lack thereof. The same for a couple of our other boys.

I'm not sure of the specifics behind this proposal to have him only play in short form matches for the next little while, and I would guess, nor are you. It wholly depends on the other work he's doing. I originally pulled you up because you made the extraordinary call that this young man would never play test cricket again (by implication because of the management of his body). That you have postured as someone who understands the game while having this opinion says all anyone really needs to know about whether you're providing anything sensible or just making noise. Sorry.
 
amer said:
I don't understand the anger and insecurity. Settle down friend.

Look, put whatever emotion is going on aside. Saying "bowling at the centre of excellence is not going to prepare him for test matches" or something similar doesn't make any point of any sort. Those are just words, no content behind them. It feels good to have an opinion, but if it's not based on good enough (or any) information then your point is...basically an array of garbled sounds. I do -know- that Cummins has bowled a hell of a lot of overs for his age. You can choose not to believe that, and that's fair enough. I can't give you concrete evidence for it. But it is true, and it is the reason he is having these growing pains. It's the workload, not the lack thereof. The same for a couple of our other boys.

I'm not sure of the specifics behind this proposal to have him only play in short form matches for the next little while, and I would guess, nor are you. It wholly depends on the other work he's doing. I originally pulled you up because you made the extraordinary call that this young man would never play test cricket again (by implication because of the management of his body). That you have postured as someone who understands the game while having this opinion says all anyone really needs to know about whether you're providing anything sensible or just making noise. Sorry.
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I'm not angry mate. You are the one who had a go at me in the first place. Then you go and have a cry about it.

He may have had a lot of bowling for his age but I don't think that he has had that much more than your average bowler (other than that Shield Final where he was over bowled massively, I'll give you that). He has hardly played a game of Cricket in years. Guys like McGrath may not have been playing Domestic Cricket but they at least were playing some Cricket. Cummins has barely played a Grade Cricket game or any game of Cricket in years and when he has been brought back he bowls in short spells in T20s and ODIs where he never has the chance to bowl a large amount of overs and get used to keeping his action strong over long periods of time.

I say it's not the amount of bowling he has been doing which is the problem. It's the lack of bowling and his very strenuous action that is the problem (by the sounds he has been doing some work in this regard so hopefully that will improve). You obviously have never been a bowler because you would know that match play is the best way to get match fit. As The Falcon Strike said, look at Boyd Rankin for example, he hadn't played a game for weeks and was expected to come in and bowl in a Test match.

Your opinion is only an opinion (as is mine). There is no information or scientific evidence behind it. And that is ok because this is a forum to talk about your opinions (you may have forgotten that).

Why are they calling this young generation of fast bowlers the most injury prone ever? Because from a junior level bowlers are limited to only bowling a short amount of overs per game. They then are asked to step up to Senior Cricket or Shield Cricket and can't handle the added workload. There has always been injuries to young fast bowlers but it has recently been at epidemic proportions. My consternation is that their bodies are not conditioned to bowling long spells and coping with heavier workloads due to bowling restrictions, yours is that they are bowling too much. Agree to disagree.
 
Ideally he will play 2 years of shield/maybe county before playing test cricket again. By then Harris will be finished, and Johnson may be out of form or too old at this point, and siddle may struggle to hold his spot. Pattinson NCN Faulkner and bird are all more than capable of forming a good attack until then as well, and that's without even considering what starc will be like at this point. Our fast bowling stocks are incredibly deep. It's not like a few years ago when blokes like cope land Hastings and George were getting tests.
 
I'm not sure how deep our fast bowling stocks are. These blokes apart from Pattinson are untried and he's not exactly consistent yet as you'd expect from his age and level of experience.

We've got plenty of young quicks around but Australian teams usually have those, whether they are good enough to play internaiontally we don't know yet.
 
Julius Seizure said:
Ideally he will play 2 years of shield/maybe county before playing test cricket again. By then Harris will be finished, and Johnson may be out of form or too old at this point, and siddle may struggle to hold his spot. Pattinson NCN Faulkner and bird are all more than capable of forming a good attack until then as well, and that's without even considering what starc will be like at this point. Our fast bowling stocks are incredibly deep. It's not like a few years ago when blokes like cope land Hastings and George were getting tests.
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Bit rough on those three. George was a promising quick who faded, it happens. Copeland and Hastings were both taking mountains of wickets at Shield level, they deserved their shot, but they didn't have the penetration or craft (need at least one) for Test cricket. Oh well, it happens, but they were both definitely worth trialing. I don't think it was a matter of lack of depth, especially with Hastings, that was only last summer!

On Starc, he could be unplayable. He's too inconsistent from ball-to-ball though, but that's a skill that takes time to practice. I suspect he'll come in when Johnson hangs up the boots (provided this new Johnson is here to stay, fingers crossed), and by then he'll hopefully be 25-26 and be accurate enough for his extreme swing and bounce to really come to the fore. Think a left-handed Gillespie!
 
BarneyBent said:
Bit rough on those three. George was a promising quick who faded, it happens. Copeland and Hastings were both taking mountains of wickets at Shield level, they deserved their shot, but they didn't have the penetration or craft (need at least one) for Test cricket. Oh well, it happens, but they were both definitely worth trialing. I don't think it was a matter of lack of depth, especially with Hastings, that was only last summer!

On Starc, he could be unplayable. He's too inconsistent from ball-to-ball though, but that's a skill that takes time to practice. I suspect he'll come in when Johnson hangs up the boots (provided this new Johnson is here to stay, fingers crossed), and by then he'll hopefully be 25-26 and be accurate enough for his extreme swing and bounce to really come to the fore. Think a left-handed Gillespie!
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Im really keen to see how Starc develops, there is something there. Hopefully Him,Cummins and Pattinson avoid Gillespie like injuries, the guy should have played 100 tests and gone down as a great, was the perfect foil to McGrath.

Its a shame copeland just doesnt have an extra 10-20km/h of pace. You just cant bowl mid to low 110's at test level. He does everything else pretty well, accurate, nice bounce, can make the ball do just enough. Just gave batsmen way too much time. I mean matthew wade cranked it up to 130 km/h.
 
Yoda_ said:
Ever considered Cummins injuries might occur from the action and not the workload?
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I think it's 100% the action, and most in the know have already confirmed it as such.

It's not sustainable, hence the work with Lillee over in Perth.
 
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