Waverley Park (VFL Park)

[Pessimistic]

Not to mention that aside from perhaps the Bulldogs having a foothold out West for any potential new arrivals, footballing allegiances in Melbourne aren't particularly geographic anymore. Playing a game out East alienates fans from the North and West, etc. There are no more traditional footholds to take advantage of with suburban grounds.

Then building purpose made grounds is just a sentimental thing. It's way too expensive. Ground rationalisation was a good thing. I personally think it's a bit of a shame we didn't maintain a third ground, but that's purely for comfort's sake. You don't really need a 30,000 capacity ground when Etihad services most lower drawing games. Which is actually an interesting point – why do people hate low drawing games at Etihad but never speak of the glum, cauldron-like, deathly 'atmosphere' for games drawing just as few people at the MCG?

Because that only happens at Melbourne home games, and it's just expected now.



Simply because we have a better stadium down the road, plus the MCG doesn't fleece the clubs playing there.[/quote]

Mayde they dont go to lower drawing ie less attractive games becaus they are still sent to the top level while huge amounts of the lower levels are emply ?

And i realise the mcg does that too now, but thats due to the ridiculous membership reserves this city has developed in its stadiums

 

[Starburns_]

Im not so passionate as you, but note that soccer, a small sport in melbourne soon saw the problems with etihad and had another stadium built for them.
Dont mind the stadium so much, its not my clubs its killing off

They didn't see any problems with it, the government built a 30k rectangular stadium for them and the rugby clubs to use.

Mayde they dont go to lower drawing ie less attractive games becaus they are still sent to the top level while huge amounts of the lower levels are emply ?

And i realise the mcg does that too now, but thats due to the ridiculous membership reserves this city has developed in its stadiums

A huge percentage of Melbourne supporters are MCC, so I'm not sure how the MCC and AFL members reserves affect their crowds in the outer. There's more than enough room.

 

[Pessimistic]

You dont see the ballet or opera fence off areas of the arts centre for their members, empty or full, they sell all their seats

As average attendances rise, it becomes more of a problem, even in a 100k stadium

I feel ike the kid in the emporers clothes story, you people just accept what you are given like sheep, when its plainly stupid to visitors

 

[Starburns_]

Except that those seats are pretty much already paid for...

 

[Pessimistic]

Youll find the ones at the arts centre are too.

Good luck defending the ridiculous

 

[Starburns_]

Youll find the ones at the arts centre are too.

Good luck defending the ridiculous

I'm not, you're the one who's been making ridiculous assumptions for the last page or so without a hint of fact to anything you've said.

 

[Pessimistic]

Look i dont call yor assertions ridiculous, backed up with fact or otherwise.

But back to the original issue. Theres plenty of discussion about the place that etihad has not been good for AFL financially

 

[tandino]

One day Waverley Park will rise again.

I think once the AFL takes over control of Docklands they will want to get their hands on more land as an investment, They will probably approach the Vic Government with a proposal to develop some land out in the east where they will build a Metricon-style stadium, operate it for 30 years and flog it off when Melbourne reaches a population of 8 million.

 

[Silent Alarm]

I dont see the point when two teams with supporter bases out east get scheduled for etihad at night time, completely flooding the city loop and annoying regular night time city visitors.

Annoying night time city visitors? Okay. Take away the footy on a Friday night and what visitors do you have? Tourists having dinner and walking across Swanston? Kids going to nightclubs? The effect of football fans at the city is felt no more at Etihad than it is at the MCG. And a lot of people tend to go straight to the game and straight back home. And so what if people stay in the city? What do they do? Go to a scungey, homogenised pub in Docklands or grab dinner in the city? How is that disruptive and annoying?

A city benefits from foot traffic and atmosphere. Crowds of 30,000 people help the place immeasurably. Everyone in South Australia is all for Adelaide Oval and one of the main, most consistent brags is that it'll add some vitality to their city centre.

And most Melburnians live 'in the east' in the most basic and blanket summary. I mean, do people feel shafted when they go to the city to: see an exhibition, see a band, attend any other sport, have dinner, go shopping. The city has plenty of events not many people have an issue in going to the city to do them. That's how the world's greatest cities tend to work. That's the point of a CBD – it's a hub. And it's not like everyone in the east loved Waverley – it was still a fair drive from Rowville, Ringwood, Blackburn, Camberwell, Moorabbin, Brighton... people in those areas were no more serviced by Waverley than they are with Etihad. In fact, I'd strongly argue Etihad is even better for those people.

Im not so passionate as you, but note that soccer, a small sport in melbourne soon saw the problems with etihad and had another stadium built for them.

Soccer in general and clubs specifically have no pull in terms of stadia. They have no money to build them and limited political pull to propose them. AAMI Park popped up and so clubs went there. It was the better option – still central, still accessible, great amenities, clean, more atmospheric for smaller games... it was the better of two good options, not the Victory doing anything possible to leave Etihad.

If Melbourne Victory and Heart truly hated Etihad, they wouldn't schedule any games there. But they do. About half-a-dozen per season. I keep a keen interest in soccer in the country, have plenty of mates who attend matches, and see a fair few games (most at Etihad, actually) and I don't know what issues you're referring to. People don't like the viewing so far away, but that's been eradicated now – every soccer game there has seats brought in. I can't really think of the other issues.

Dont mind the stadium so much, its not my clubs its killing off

But this is one of the least popular complaints against Etihad. Most people bitch unjustifiably about other things: how the trains take longer than if they were going to the MCG, how Docklands is glum, how it's got no atmosphere... they're the complaints. Most complainers know bupkis about it's admittedly s**t financial power.

 

[Starburns_]

And most Melburnians live 'in the east' in the most basic and blanket summary. I mean, do people feel shafted when they go to the city to: see an exhibition, see a band, attend any other sport, have dinner, go shopping. The city has plenty of events not many people have an issue in going to the city to do them. That's how the world's greatest cities tend to work. That's the point of a CBD – it's a hub. And it's not like everyone in the east loved Waverley – it was still a fair drive from Rowville, Ringwood, Blackburn, Camberwell, Moorabbin, Brighton... people in those areas were no more serviced by Waverley than they are with Etihad. In fact, I'd strongly argue Etihad is even better for those people.

You could walk from Waverley to Rowville relatively easily...

But this is one of the least popular complaints against Etihad. Most people bitch unjustifiably about other things: how the trains take longer than if they were going to the MCG, how Docklands is glum, how it's got no atmosphere... they're the complaints.

In a lot of cases relevant complaints in the sense that the MCG has less of those problems.

 

[Pessimistic]

Annoying night time city visitors? Okay. Take away the footy on a Friday night and what visitors do you have? Tourists having dinner and walking across Swanston? Kids going to nightclubs? The effect of football fans at the city is felt no more at Etihad than it is at the MCG. And a lot of people tend to go straight to the game and straight back home. And so what if people stay in the city? What do they do? Go to a scungey, homogenised pub in Docklands or grab dinner in the city? How is that disruptive and annoying?

A city benefits from foot traffic and atmosphere. Crowds of 30,000 people help the place immeasurably. Everyone in South Australia is all for Adelaide Oval and one of the main, most consistent brags is that it'll add some vitality to their city centre.

And most Melburnians live 'in the east' in the most basic and blanket summary. I mean, do people feel shafted when they go to the city to: see an exhibition, see a band, attend any other sport, have dinner, go shopping. The city has plenty of events not many people have an issue in going to the city to do them. That's how the world's greatest cities tend to work. That's the point of a CBD – it's a hub. And it's not like everyone in the east loved Waverley – it was still a fair drive from Rowville, Ringwood, Blackburn, Camberwell, Moorabbin, Brighton... people in those areas were no more serviced by Waverley than they are with Etihad. In fact, I'd strongly argue Etihad is even better for those people.


Soccer in general and clubs specifically have no pull in terms of stadia. They have no money to build them and limited political pull to propose them. AAMI Park popped up and so clubs went there. It was the better option – still central, still accessible, great amenities, clean, more atmospheric for smaller games... it was the better of two good options, not the Victory doing anything possible to leave Etihad.

If Melbourne Victory and Heart truly hated Etihad, they wouldn't schedule any games there. But they do. About half-a-dozen per season. I keep a keen interest in soccer in the country, have plenty of mates who attend matches, and see a fair few games (most at Etihad, actually) and I don't know what issues you're referring to. People don't like the viewing so far away, but that's been eradicated now – every soccer game there has seats brought in. I can't really think of the other issues.


But this is one of the least popular complaints against Etihad. Most people bitch unjustifiably about other things: how the trains take longer than if they were going to the MCG, how Docklands is glum, how it's got no atmosphere... they're the complaints. Most complainers know bupkis about it's admittedly s**t financial power.

Annoying people travelling on loop trains for other purposes than footy, long response off target really

Not challenging the location of etihad just saying there could have been more conventional style 30k stadiums built at docklands and waverley with change for the price of etihad

A new waverley could have been built more family friendly like metricon and attract s different crowd to lower drawing games

And the mcg transport has its issues too. Theres far too mny glen waverley and not enough ringwood trains consistently. Theres lots more people use the ringwood line. Someone at DOT has a sense of humour obviously

 

[Silent Alarm]

Annoying people travelling on loop trains for other purposes than footy, long response off target really

Not really off target.

So where do you think the second ground should've been? Suburbia, it seems.

Now I can bet that this second location would have absolutely struggled with approvals. And if they got them, the complaints from residents and the council would have been persistent until they got their way and the stadium made redundant. That is, unless you build a stadium in.... Eltham? Near the Airport? Essentially places needing a rail service and even with one, a long way to travel and a s**t place in terms of atmosphere. Docklands is kind of glum but it has more spots for something to eat and drink before the game than Waverley and Optus Oval ever had or will have.

So if you're not annoying people on loops (which is absolutely insane by the way. That's probably the worst argument I've ever heard. How many people even take the train at 2pm Saturday or 10pm Friday, outbound? I mean this isn't 5:30 on Thursday from Parliament station. Trains are supposed to be used. People will complain about public transport anyway, and most anguish is because of lateness or something minor like that...) you will be annoying residents. Optus Oval copped complaints for years. They petitioned to stop car parking. They didn't want any expansion let alone current games, contributing to its death. Then you look elsewhere and you see examples of festivals and events being shunned by locals to the extent that they're eventually turfed. Someone will be annoyed in suburban footy, too.

Not challenging the location of etihad just saying there could have been more conventional style 30k stadiums built at docklands and waverley with change for the price of etihad

It doesn't entirely work like that. One stadium at 55,000 doesn't count twice as much as two stadiums at 28,000. There's more than the cost of plastic and concrete. You'd have to pay two sets of builders and contractors, two sets of engineers, two sets of planners, two sets of architects, two sets of land, two sets of all the necessary earthwork and ground excavations, and two sets of governments and residents to put up with, and hope for two sets of train links. Then when it's built, you'll need more people at gates, more people cleaning... it'd be a lot more expensive and essentially pointless. Not to mentioned the fact you'd have a really skewed market where clubs like North can only ever hope to attract 30,000 people, but Collingwood and Melbourne essentially have no ceiling.

Also, I think you've used Metricon as an example. That place is so cheap because there was existing land. Then the stadium itself is really simplistic. There's no closed off concourses. All the amenities aren't actually built as part of the stadium's structure like you get everywhere else. They're all built separately or are temporary, hugely lessening the building costs. The whole place is essentially exposed to the elements because of it. Which is great in Queensland – how many Suns' games have been in 9 degree weather? If you had a place like that in Melbourne nobody would go. It'd be even colder than the MCG's top deck. It's useless in Melbourne where 90% of games are in cold weather.

A new waverley could have been built more family friendly like metricon and attract s different crowd to lower drawing games

Why? So it could suffer the same issues Waverley did? The place is still impossible to get to relying solely on trains. And buses are an unfashionable, for some reason, way to get people to the footy. If the government couldn't service the second, 75,000 capacity Waverley, why would it build a train line to a 30,000 capacity Waverley? The landscape in cities has changed too much to allow for suburban grounds. People hated going to Joondalup for the Big Day Out the other day in Perth; Adelaide hated AAMI because it was in nowherestown like Waverley; people in Brisbane love Suncorp because it's so central; even people in Sydney, a city more sprawled and less centrally populated than Melbourne, don't enjoy the trek to Stadium Australia but have few qualms in heading to the CBD.

Also, what kind of new crowd would this attract? Middle class families? Because every game I go to, there's plenty of families. Even twilight Sundays. The east wouldn't uncover an untapped market.

 

[Pessimistic]

Mate I think younare arguing at length for the sake of it. Etihad was over 450mill to build over 10 years ago, several times the cost of metricon. It just shows how shrewd the current AFL admin are compared to oakely jackson era.

Its a bit strawman to say i would have an exact metricon built in melbourne. Etihad was a mix of compromise, dick measuring, incompetence and maybe a measure orf corruption by those in charge, and we are all paying for it.

You dance around the fact that for all the good points of etihad, the MCG does it much better. The only thing etihad does is give other sports and entertainment a leg up

 

[tandino]

Soccer in general and clubs specifically have no pull in terms of stadia. They have no money to build them and limited political pull to propose them. AAMI Park popped up and so clubs went there. It was the better option – still central, still accessible, great amenities, clean, more atmospheric for smaller games... it was the better of two good options, not the Victory doing anything possible to leave Etihad.

If Melbourne Victory and Heart truly hated Etihad, they wouldn't schedule any games there. But they do. About half-a-dozen per season. I keep a keen interest in soccer in the country, have plenty of mates who attend matches, and see a fair few games (most at Etihad, actually) and I don't know what issues you're referring to. People don't like the viewing so far away, but that's been eradicated now – every soccer game there has seats brought in. I can't really think of the other issues.

Melbourne Victory, as in the management, LOVE Etihad Stadium. I'm sure it would have suited them just fine if AAMI Park never existed.

From what I've read from those who seem to have knowledge of these things, their deal with that stadium would shame the AFL.

 

[____]

Melbourne Heart have never played a home game in the regular season at Docklands, only "away" derbies against the Victory.

Melbourne Victory only play home games at Docklands because they are contracted to do so.

 

[tandino]

(a man with no name, that's a first)

Melbourne Victory wouldn't be looking to break that contract anytime soon, unless they start to hate making money.

 

[Macca_1870]

I went to visit Waverley a couple of months back- What hawthorn and mirvac have done with the site is really quite nice, however I agree with other posters sentiments that the place has that eerie feel about it, especially when you think back to what was once there and try and picture where everything was. It hits home what was once there when you see what is left of the grandstand walking in off of the highway, not to mention the old photos that are hanging in "the last piece" cafe (top feed in there BTW).

I have a question for the stadium historians or Waverley regulars (and sorry if this has already been mentioned and I scrolled over it), but once the ground was demolished, did they fill in the old changerooms? I went down the interchange bench area to have a look through the gates and see if I could see anything, but it seems pretty shallow, and I got the feeling it was all filled in. Can anyone confirm?

Also- does anyone know if the very top tier of the K.G stand is accessible?

 

[Teagueeee15]

I went to visit Waverley a couple of months back- What hawthorn and mirvac have done with the site is really quite nice, however I agree with other posters sentiments that the place has that eerie feel about it, especially when you think back to what was once there and try and picture where everything was. It hits home what was once there when you see what is left of the grandstand walking in off of the highway, not to mention the old photos that are hanging in "the last piece" cafe (top feed in there BTW).

I have a question for the stadium historians or Waverley regulars (and sorry if this has already been mentioned and I scrolled over it), but once the ground was demolished, did they fill in the old changerooms? I went down the interchange bench area to have a look through the gates and see if I could see anything, but it seems pretty shallow, and I got the feeling it was all filled in. Can anyone confirm?

Also- does anyone know if the very top tier of the K.G stand is accessible?

Are you talking about through here?

On channel 10 news when they crossed to Hawthorn training during Grand Final week I'm sure they showed the players running out from here to avoid all of the people in the crowd. What's exactly behind the door? well I have no idea but it would be cool if the change rooms were preserved, although the grand stand concourse has been filled in as you can see below.

What sort of photos were in the cafe? I will have to check it out. I think the best chance of getting to the top of that stand would be to do the Hawthorn tour which is conducted Wednesday mornings. Unfortunately it takes me about 2 hours to get out to the ground on public transport so until I can book into the tour I wont go back out there to find out.

 

[Silent Alarm]

What sort of photos were in the cafe? I will have to check it out. I think the best chance of getting to the top of that stand would be to do the Hawthorn tour which is conducted Wednesday mornings. Unfortunately it takes me about 2 hours to get out to the ground on public transport so until I can book into the tour I wont go back out there to find out.

What is it like to get out there? Is there a single train you can get? Or is there a heap of bus interchanges? I'm just about to head into a month or so of uni break. I might have time to kill and sussing this place, the Junction, and those VFL grounds might fill in some time...

 

[Macca_1870]

Are you talking about through here?

On channel 10 news when they crossed to Hawthorn training during Grand Final week I'm sure they showed the players running out from here to avoid all of the people in the crowd. What's exactly behind the door? well I have no idea but it would be cool if the change rooms were preserved, although the grand stand concourse has been filled in as you can see below.

What sort of photos were in the cafe? I will have to check it out. I think the best chance of getting to the top of that stand would be to do the Hawthorn tour which is conducted Wednesday mornings. Unfortunately it takes me about 2 hours to get out to the ground on public transport so until I can book into the tour I wont go back out there to find out.

Yep thats the one! Have wondered since I went there if there was anything behind that door....I agree though- would be pretty cool if the old changerooms were preserved, as that last piece of history.

There were 4 photos IIRC adorning the walls as you walk in from the concourse entrance. 1 was of the ground when it was first built, showing the stadium and accompanying land, another was of a few hawthorn players (Paul Hudson, Langford and a few others) celebrating the 1991 premiership, and there were 2 others showing random games being played, trying to highlight the ground in its latter stages (the coloured benches), and the harrowing sight that was a packed carpark, knowing what was to come once the siren sounded

Evolutionary if you call it- but for someone like myself who never went to the ground but was very familiar with it from many saturday afternoon games on telly back in my younger years, it was nice to get out there and have a kick, and am thankful that the site was somewhat preserved and didn't disappear into oblivion, thanks to the heritage listing!

 

[Starburns_]

What is it like to get out there? Is there a single train you can get? Or is there a heap of bus interchanges? I'm just about to head into a month or so of uni break. I might have time to kill and sussing this place, the Junction, and those VFL grounds might fill in some time...

A large reason it closed was the lack of train there.

There's a few buses that stop at Wellington and Jells Roads (which is the edge of where the car park usedf to be, lots of houses in between now though), one of which comes from Glen Waverley station.

 

[Teagueeee15]

What is it like to get out there? Is there a single train you can get? Or is there a heap of bus interchanges? I'm just about to head into a month or so of uni break. I might have time to kill and sussing this place, the Junction, and those VFL grounds might fill in some time...

It's very easy to get there, just time consuming. You get the Packenham/Cranbourne/Frankston train to Caulfield and get the route 900 bus outside Caulfield train station and this bus stops at Waverly Park. This is a smart bus and the best one to get IMO because it has an electronic voice that announces what the next stop is, so you can't go wrong when it says next stop is Waverley Park.

This is the bus

http://ptv.vic.gov.au/route/view/1517

If you catch a bus other than the 900 then you rely on visually sighting the ground which is difficult because of the houses in the way. This is the view from the bus stop.

 

[Macca_1870]

Yep- follow the exact route that Teagueee has set and you cant go wrong. For someone from interstate, I was actually surprised how easy it was to get to and from there. As has been said- it just takes a while, following that route, you look at 20-25 min each way.

 

[mianfei]

Not to mention that aside from perhaps the Bulldogs having a foothold out West for any potential new arrivals, footballing allegiances in Melbourne aren't particularly geographic anymore. Playing a game out East alienates fans from the North and West, etc. There are no more traditional footholds to take advantage of with suburban grounds

I wonder to what extent Hawthorn and St. Kilda in the southeastern suburbs around Waverley would be exceptions, too – not to mention Geelong who have the genuinely unfair advantage of still having a home ground of their own?? Certainly in the days when Waverley was in use I imagine Hawthorn and St. Kilda would have tended to have a strong supporter base there.

Simply because we have a better stadium down the road, plus the MCG doesn't fleece the clubs playing there.

According to correspondence from a few years ago:

If the AFL keeps a bit of the profits for itself, but gives most of it to the clubs then the breakeven crowd [at Docklands] can be halved compared to today [i.e. 15,000 break-even crowd versus 30,000]. If the AFL can get 30 to 50 days use out of it on top of the games of footy then the AFL and or the clubs will be making some very nice monies out of the stadium.

The big caveat to the above scenario is the roof. At some point it will have to have major repairs and eventually be replaced. That will be an expensive exercise. I’m not an engineer so I have no idea when that will be. Monies will have to be found to do that, unless the AFL sells the stadium before hand, and that will change the break even figure.

It does seem as if the AFL wants to stick with Docklands for the long haul and hope it will in the long term profit clubs with the large television revenues as Waverley never could. Ticket price reforms may mean a 15,000 break-even crowd from 2025 onwards is optimistic from their perspective, though if they can get more non-football use the figure could be even smaller than that.

The goal for the AFL is to have a television-based stadium where costs can be paid for by a small crowd from the more poorly-supported local clubs and thus large television revenues do not have to pay substantial fees even compared with the MCG. As I have said before, inability to challenge the road lobby made the present policies, regardless of the fact that they make for more predictable outcomes and a game aesthetically less attractive to watch, inevitable since attendance-based football could not transport people to games in sufficient numbers to avoid heavy financial losses.

Predictable outcomes the AFL no doubt thinks an important factor keeping the AFL popular, and Stefan Szymański agreed in ‘Tilting the Playing Field: Why A Sports League Planner Would Choose Less, Not More, Competitive Balance’. No doubt outcome predictability helped allow fans of the popular clubs entertainment in the 1930s, 1960s and late 1970s/early 1980s, which saw the most uneven pre-Docklands competitions and at the same time the largest attendances.

Because, owing to the concentration of teams in Melbourne, the distribution of team support among television viewers is probably much more uneven than among actual spectators (contra Szymański, p. 32), St. Kilda, Melbourne, North Melbourne and the Bulldogs bring very large externalities to the AFL (Szymański, p. 2-3). For this reason, the league knows it must keep these clubs in Melbourne, even if maximising television viewership means they should win as rarely as possible.

It is my view that, if there was free choices as to ticket prices for all clubs and no stadium deals, the Saints, Demons, Kangaroos and Bulldogs would (mostly) choose to play at a suburban venue for low ticket prices (less cheap against strong-drawing local clubs). The logical and competitive superiority of such a system, at all events, I cannot deny no matter how remote from possibility it is.

 

[aCunningPlan]

It's very easy to get there, just time consuming. You get the Packenham/Cranbourne/Frankston train to Caulfield and get the route 900 bus outside Caulfield train station and this bus stops at Waverly Park. This is a smart bus and the best one to get IMO because it has an electronic voice that announces what the next stop is, so you can't go wrong when it says next stop is Waverley Park.

This is the bus

http://ptv.vic.gov.au/route/view/1517

If you catch a bus other than the 900 then you rely on visually sighting the ground which is difficult because of the houses in the way. This is the view from the bus stop.

On a small sidenote I find it is slightly quicker to catch the 900 from Huntingdale Station to avoid the occasional slow crawl (depending on what time of day) along Dandenong Rd.