Mega Thread JUDGMENT -Essendon/Hird v ASADA Trial: Investigation legal (club/ASADA/AFL/AFLPA/WADA statements)

[JoondalupJ]

You don't know what you are talking about. Go read the WADA code and the acts that have been passed by the Australian government regarding anti-doping.

Come on Argy your a bloody Hawk, give me some backup man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Enough's enough. I just haven't heard one word about what they actually did wrong , and I am talking about the persecution of young players , because of some bureaucratic mongrel doping administration that can't prove anything 100%.
Leave the goddamned players alone , but ASADA want their little bit of bureacratic blood letting don't they as well as some of you posters , and some 20 or 21 year olds' will wear the cheat emblem for ever, for not really knowing why!

What a mongrel dogs act. You know what we mean by a dog in those terms?

 

[sojin_muneshi]

I just haven't heard one word about what they actually did wrong , and I am talking about the persecution of young players , because of some bureaucratic mongrel doping administration that can't prove anything 100%.

If Essendon and Hird stop their attempts to block the process on technicalities the bureaucratic doping administrations process would progress to releasing the charges of what they actually did wrong and the tribunal would test if anything can be proved - this is all in accordance with the WADA and ASADA codes and the AFL rules that Essendon, its players and Hird are contractually obliged to abide by.

Leave the goddamned players alone , but ASADA want their little bit of bureacratic blood letting don't they as well as some of you posters , and some 20 or 21 year olds' will wear the cheat emblem for ever, for not really knowing why

If the processes is permitted to progress, and they are found guilty, they, and everyone else will know exactly why - its no different to anyone on charges from the police, and going through the court processes, they are all "innocent" until proven "guilty" and that's what the court and judge resolves, ASADA in this case are the police, the evidence they have is considered sufficient to proceed by review of a retired Federal Court judge, a current Federal Court Judge has ruled that their method of collecting evidence is legal, and that Hird and Essendon's attempts to block the investigation and hide the evidence are not supported.

"If" the players have not taken part in banned substances, they will be cleared, if they have taken part, then they will be guilty of doing so, even if they did it unwittingly, or at the direction of their employer.

"If" Essendon and Hird were so confident "nothing" was untoward with their supplements program, why did they accept the AFL sanctions, why didn't they provide the evidence then?


"If" Essendon and Hird are so confident "nothing" was untoward with their supplements program, why don't they simply let the charges progress, and provide the evidence now?

The reality is they don't have independent records of what the players were given and are relying on a spreadsheet from Danks, and it appears that testimony, purchase records, and SMS/Emails place Danks in a very difficult position in terms of what he was administering?

Danks "defence" strategy (as reflected in quotes via his lawyer) appears to be focused on trying to prove the supplements shouldn't be banned, rather than the substances he used were not banned?

 

[Argy]

Come on Argy your a bloody Hawk, give me some backup man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Enough's enough. I just haven't heard one word about what they actually did wrong , and I am talking about the persecution of young players , because of some bureaucratic mongrel doping administration that can't prove anything 100%.
Leave the goddamned players alone , but ASADA want their little bit of bureacratic blood letting don't they as well as some of you posters , and some 20 or 21 year olds' will wear the cheat emblem for ever, for not really knowing why!

What a mongrel dogs act. You know what we mean by a dog in those terms?

The fact we support the same team doesn't mean I can't see that you're ignorant of how the anti-doping codes and laws work. Plus, if you haven't heard a word about what EFC/Hird/players did wrong then you haven't been paying attention.

 

[JoondalupJ]

The fact we support the same team doesn't mean I can't see that you're ignorant of how the anti-doping codes and laws work. Plus, if you haven't heard a word about what EFC/Hird/players did wrong then you haven't been paying attention.

Tell me the charges please , now, then I'll know, and my ignorance will equal to yours then? So come on. What was the doping charge, who actually took dope and when will they all be suspended.
Thankyou M'lud!

 

[JoondalupJ]

If Essendon and Hird stop their attempts to block the process on technicalities the bureaucratic doping administrations process would progress to releasing the charges of what they actually did wrong and the tribunal would test if anything can be proved - this is all in accordance with the WADA and ASADA codes and the AFL rules that Essendon, its players and Hird are contractually obliged to abide by.



If the processes is permitted to progress, and they are found guilty, they, and everyone else will know exactly why - its no different to anyone on charges from the police, and going through the court processes, they are all "innocent" until proven "guilty" and that's what the court and judge resolves, ASADA in this case are the police, the evidence they have is considered sufficient to proceed by review of a retired Federal Court judge, a current Federal Court Judge has ruled that their method of collecting evidence is legal, and that Hird and Essendon's attempts to block the investigation and hide the evidence are not supported.

"If" the players have not taken part in banned substances, they will be cleared, if they have taken part, then they will be guilty of doing so, even if they did it unwittingly, or at the direction of their employer.

"If" Essendon and Hird were so confident "nothing" was untoward with their supplements program, why did they accept the AFL sanctions, why didn't they provide the evidence then?


"If" Essendon and Hird are so confident "nothing" was untoward with their supplements program, why don't they simply let the charges progress, and provide the evidence now?

The reality is they don't have independent records of what the players were given and are relying on a spreadsheet from Danks, and it appears that testimony, purchase records, and SMS/Emails place Danks in a very difficult position in terms of what he was administering?

Danks "defence" strategy (as reflected in quotes via his lawyer) appears to be focused on trying to prove the supplements shouldn't be banned, rather than the substances he used were not banned?

It still smacks of ..we think you did it , we can't prove it . Sorry , whether that is the situation or not , the fairness in this whole thing is questionable , as is the process that ASADA have at their disposal, you could ruin anyone you wanted on evidence that doesn't necessarily add up or can be proven.

It feels like a witch hunt , and I thought the punishments had been served. So if you can really look at this and say the whole process has been smooth and fair from any angle , then you are definitely already in a mind that everyone is guilty no matter what.
Its not like Armstrong and one person, there is a hell of a mess where lots of people are invilved and proving absolutely is not possible.
But it appears according to all you lawyers out there that ASADA don't have to prove anything to stuff up a reputation. And they will do that for some of these players and some of these players are innocent man.
Don't you see that point , its the process thats stuffed up , because it'll mess some lives up badly and nothing will be gained except the patting on the head of some egos floating around the place.

Go to the other end and ask what Dimetriou new and what he said or didn't say or actually denies saying things. There are so many maybes that people who shouldn't, will get hurt , and some already probably have. All because the club got a little bird message telling them they may be (MAYBE) doing something wrong.

But I must be the only one who sees another side to this sorry episode. And the unfairness. BUT!!! chaps time will tell you all, and James may hang yet!

 

[Argy]

Tell me the charges please , now, then I'll know, and my ignorance will equal to yours then? So come on. What was the doping charge, who actually took dope and when will they all be suspended.
Thankyou M'lud!

You give Hawks fans a bad name. At least when school goes back next week we'll hear less of you.

 

[BlueWorld]

It feels like a witch hunt , and I thought the punishments had been served.

You really have no idea.

 

[ajb72]

and sadly, these people live amongst us.

 

[sojin_muneshi]

It still smacks of ..we think you did it , we can't prove it . Sorry , whether that is the situation or not , the fairness in this whole thing is questionable , as is the process that ASADA have at their disposal, you could ruin anyone you wanted on evidence that doesn't necessarily add up or can be proven.

I don't know how you are able to judge the evidence yet, no-one but ASADA know what the evidence that they have is?

This again is no different to the police investigating a crime, they interview suspects, collect evidence and then seek a prosecution in a court of law, they don't play show and tell with the suspects prior to charging them, the players haven't been charged yet, they have simply been interviewed and then given show cause letters, - they will be given the evidence details next, if Hird gets out of the way.

It feels like a witch hunt , and I thought the punishments had been served.

The only punishments paid out so far are:
1. Essendon sacking some support staff, and apparently on the verge of sacking Hird as coach
2. AFL penalising Essendon, Hird, Thompson and others.

ASADA and the Sports Doping processes haven't punished anyone yet, the Essendon sackings and the AFL penalities relate to employment and contractual obligations, not the Sports Doping laws.

So if you can really look at this and say the whole process has been smooth and fair from any angle , then you are definitely already in a mind that everyone is guilty no matter what.

How do you make that judgement?

If we believe Little, Hird and Dank there is no guilt, everything is above board? - so if it is, simply give the evidence to the players and let them submit it back with the Show Cause letter replies.

BUT
-if that was the case, Ziggy's report for Essendon would have found that to be the situation and Essendon would not have sacked support staff,

-if it was the case, then Essendon, Hird and Danks would have shown it to the AFL and there wouldn't have been any AFL penalties applied for bringing the game into dis-respute.

-if that was the case, ASADA would have received that evidence from Essendon, Hird and Danks, and the retired Federal Court judge who ASADA got to review the evidence would have told ASADA to give it up, not proceed as he has done!

Its not like Armstrong and one person, there is a hell of a mess where lots of people are invilved and proving absolutely is not possible.

Dank is the one who is managing the supplements program if he misleads the players, they are taking banned drugs without knowing it, but they are still taking them? that's the questions to be answered,
1.What did Dank give them?
2. Are those substances Banned?
3. Did the players know what they were given?
4. Did other Essendon support staff know?

But it appears according to all you lawyers out there that ASADA don't have to prove anything to stuff up a reputation. And they will do that for some of these players and some of these players are innocent man.

Your the one claiming ASADA doesn't have to prove anything? - where do you get that silly idea?

The debate is the level of evidence ASADA needs, and the onus on the players to defend against it?

There are three questions as I said.
1. What were they given?
2. Are those substances banned?
3. Did the players get duped, or doped, or did they knowingly participate?

You can be an innocent victim, but still be found guilty of taking banned substances, if you let someone inject you with them, even if you were mislead as to what it was, or simply didn't ask because you trusted the experts and management of the club.

Don't you see that point , its the process thats stuffed up , because it'll mess some lives up badly and nothing will be gained except the patting on the head of some egos floating around the place.

The process that is "stuffed up" is Essendon's management accountability and governance, Dr Reid should have been approving all and any medications an supplements and it appears from his own letter that he was being kept in the dark.

Blaming ASADA or trying to get off on a technicality to have their investigation closed down only makes the Hird camp look more guilty.

Go to the other end and ask what Dimetriou new and what he said or didn't say or actually denies saying things. There are so many maybes that people who shouldn't, will get hurt , and some already probably have. All because the club got a little bird message telling them they may be (MAYBE) doing something wrong.

This is Hirds BIG RED HERRING? so wha!t if Dimetriou tipped Essendon off about the ACC investigation and pending ASADA investigation, how does that change the facts as to what substances were being used on the players, and if those substances were banned? and if the players were knowingly participating or being duped?

But I must be the only one who sees another side to this sorry episode. And the unfairness. BUT!!! chaps time will tell you all, and James may hang yet!

I am happy to let the players have their day in the tribunal to clear their names with conclusive evidence of what they were given, and clarification of the ban status of those substances, its a pretty easy process to resolve and clarify, if Hird gets out of the way and lets it proceed, and innocent men, with good records of what they were given, and when, should be able to walk away with clean reputations, but really, do you honest believe if the evidence and records showed that situation, that Essendon would be in this mess of paying out Robinson @$1M for sacking him as the scapegoat, and in the exact same week planning to sack Hird after paying him $1M to have a holiday last season, and at risk of paying him $2M to walk away-

who's fault is this mess?
Dimetriou and the AFL?
ASADA and WADA?
if you think either of them are - you must be named Tania, or Hirdy, or Robbo?

 

[JoondalupJ]

I don't know how you are able to judge the evidence yet, no-one but ASADA know what the evidence that they have is?

This again is no different to the police investigating a crime, they interview suspects, collect evidence and then seek a prosecution in a court of law, they don't play show and tell with the suspects prior to charging them, the players haven't been charged yet, they have simply been interviewed and then given show cause letters, - they will be given the evidence details next, if Hird gets out of the way.



The only punishments paid out so far are:
1. Essendon sacking some support staff, and apparently on the verge of sacking Hird as coach
2. AFL penalising Essendon, Hird, Thompson and others.

ASADA and the Sports Doping processes haven't punished anyone yet, the Essendon sackings and the AFL penalities relate to employment and contractual obligations, not the Sports Doping laws.



How do you make that judgement?

If we believe Little, Hird and Dank there is no guilt, everything is above board? - so if it is, simply give the evidence to the players and let them submit it back with the Show Cause letter replies.

BUT
-if that was the case, Ziggy's report for Essendon would have found that to be the situation and Essendon would not have sacked support staff,

-if it was the case, then Essendon, Hird and Danks would have shown it to the AFL and there wouldn't have been any AFL penalties applied for bringing the game into dis-respute.

-if that was the case, ASADA would have received that evidence from Essendon, Hird and Danks, and the retired Federal Court judge who ASADA got to review the evidence would have told ASADA to give it up, not proceed as he has done!



Dank is the one who is managing the supplements program if he misleads the players, they are taking banned drugs without knowing it, but they are still taking them? that's the questions to be answered,
1.What did Dank give them?
2. Are those substances Banned?
3. Did the players know what they were given?
4. Did other Essendon support staff know?



Your the one claiming ASADA doesn't have to prove anything? - where do you get that silly idea?

The debate is the level of evidence ASADA needs, and the onus on the players to defend against it?

There are three questions as I said.
1. What were they given?
2. Are those substances banned?
3. Did the players get duped, or doped, or did they knowingly participate?

You can be an innocent victim, but still be found guilty of taking banned substances, if you let someone inject you with them, even if you were mislead as to what it was, or simply didn't ask because you trusted the experts and management of the club.



The process that is "stuffed up" is Essendon's management accountability and governance, Dr Reid should have been approving all and any medications an supplements and it appears from his own letter that he was being kept in the dark.

Blaming ASADA or trying to get off on a technicality to have their investigation closed down only makes the Hird camp look more guilty.



This is Hirds BIG RED HERRING? so wha!t if Dimetriou tipped Essendon off about the ACC investigation and pending ASADA investigation, how does that change the facts as to what substances were being used on the players, and if those substances were banned? and if the players were knowingly participating or being duped?



I am happy to let the players have their day in the tribunal to clear their names with conclusive evidence of what they were given, and clarification of the ban status of those substances, its a pretty easy process to resolve and clarify, if Hird gets out of the way and lets it proceed, and innocent men, with good records of what they were given, and when, should be able to walk away with clean reputations, but really, do you honest believe if the evidence and records showed that situation, that Essendon would be in this mess of paying out Robinson @$1M for sacking him as the scapegoat, and in the exact same week planning to sack Hird after paying him $1M to have a holiday last season, and at risk of paying him $2M to walk away-

who's fault is this mess?
Dimetriou and the AFL?
ASADA and WADA?
if you think either of them are - you must be named Tania, or Hirdy, or Robbo?

Ridiculous comment. Danks manages the supplement program, he misleads the players or if he misleads the players, you say, they are taking drugs without knowing , but they still have to answer for that, even if they were duped???? NOT DOPED ha ha .

For me that's the whole unfair set up. What organisation can assume guilt and apply show cause notices when if they (as you say) have the evidence won't and wouldn't show anything even before Hird and Ess court case was begun.
Also they are talking about penalties over the off season , you got half an idea what I'm talking about , YET?

There has been nothing charged , as far as you or me know, but they are talking penalties , I thought the penalties were being served or had been by no finals 2 million fine and Hird screwed in his job and taking the fall for a year.

ASADA must be very powerful, threatening asking for answers , TO WHAT? Tell me mate I 'd like to know the charges, AND IF AND WHEN THEY ARE BROUGHT INTO THE OPEN , why so long, if they could have wiped the floor Hird and Ess before this . why haven't they?

But you can't, because you can quote rules til the cows come home , listen if they are all as guilty as hell , I'll f*****g well hang em myself , I'll pull the lever! You bring your knitting.

 

[blackshadow]

That is rot. Innocent presumed is the law until guilt is proved . If we take this to the limit , any player who gets a show cause can say take me to court and prove it.
If any one has a suspicion about anything to anyone , your saying they can just say we think your guilty of something , prove your not.
That is rubbish.
I'm talking about a player or anyone for that matter defending themselves in civil court for anything , if they want to do that. That is the right of every citizen in this country.
ASADA have to prove absolutely any player they think is using drugs or banned substances , has used drugs or banned substances and under what circumstance to incriminate that person.
If that person says no I am not guilty , and if I was injected I thought it was all legal. It could have been vitamins.
What ever these trumped up organisations have, as set rules cannot condemn any body unless they have absolute proof.

How would you go about sentencing a person to life in prison when the law says to you , we don't know for sure, but we think you may have committed a murder.
Would the law not have to then charge the accused and take him to court and prove he/she is guilty. If this is not the case with ASADA who have laid nothing yet, that's provable , then they are a little private sports persecutor of the highest order.
When the truth comes out we can all see , I don't know Hird and Essendon might have been shooting heroin and ice day in day out or they might have been taking a legal sport supplement , no one has said it as a charge yet , why is everyone convicting anyone before the result.
Hird by the way took the fall and is back.Unfortunately because all the haters and head kickers have splattered the mud so widely with no actual perfect proof , that the man is ruined and Essendon look like having to move him because of what people may think , or worse just believe without any real evidence.

That is what has happened in this last 1 to 2 years. 1 to 2 years, its a long time,no nothing yet. If there is we will soon know.

Your ignorance is on show again.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[JoondalupJ]

Your ignorance is on show again.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

I just replayed the Footy classified from last night and watched it again .
Raving about James Hird and why these experts think he should go or be removed or sacked, watching Craig Hutchison and Damien Barrett and Caroline Wilson and Gary Lyon. I'll say something about them later.

On that show I watched Bomber Thomson's speech at the Essendon end of year event. If ever a man not only pushed the knife in but twisted it Bomber did. If you haven't or don't, watch it, ask someone you know who does , they'll tell you about bombers speech .

Bomber a great coach who said after quitting Geelong, his reasons were that he was warn out, or to much pressure, then said no I won't go to Essendon , then he said yes I will go and help James , then he filled in for a year and said "only this year" James is coach, but at the Essendon end of year get together , he showed what he really is.
Yes he's a good coach, but then he's a man who is prepared to destroy his senior coach, Hird, so the club can get on with the job because "he just can't walk backwards" now, and and he can't work in a place where he is not the position that has control or that suits him, not in as many words, but he wants the senior job at Essendon . Fine , but the way it is being done is murder.

He's backing out too, like rats, you just can't betray people like that. His character is in totally question now. James is going to fight , his mate has left his back.

Essendon have turmoil because they have to move into this trade and draft period.

They have no, set in, concrete coach . They have innuendo rampaging through their club so who will want to join them?
Because they have to do football business at this time of year they, have to bring to a head this ASADA nonsense.
Hence Little's, and the boards move to NOT appeal the court case. And to maybe persuade Hird to back down
along with them or get the sack!

What a betrayal when they were fighting the same cause as James Hird , but now they have let him down , forgot about his back and deserted him.

James Hird won't back off because he believes he's in the right.

Caroline and crew now, on channel 9 last night and my re watching it today.

All of them Barrett , Hutchinson and Wilson , say Hird should go , even though they play a clip of the PM being asked about the ASADA V Essendon shamozzle.

He says this needs resolving , there is a lot of things going on , it has been going on too a long time , and no body really knows what is going on at all.

That's the Prime Minister , who Caroline Wilson says is just saying what the rest of the country is saying!
Nobody knows what is going on or who did what .

Bringing back my point to you, and others on here with your opinions, which your free to make, that I'm ignorant and don't understand anything.

Well these channel 9 folk all nodded to each other when saying Hird should go or be sacked , or he's finished. WHY?
They know, no more than you and me!

Because he's guilty of something??? He's served his time hasn't he???

Maybe Essendon decide to kill him off because getting justice is just too hard??? And we have to get on with the football, let ASADA cripple the careers of some young players , with innuendo and mud that will stick , when ASADA have yet to show any evidence, yet some of you on your side of this argument, seem to think that ASADA should be allowed to ask for show cause, without saying for what.

Maybe the sports legal set up is like that, it doesn't make it right. OR FAIR!

Another thing for you to contemplate.
DANK'S your definite "guilty party" according to some of your mates on here, is , according to Damien Barrett sueing, ASADA the AFL and the Essendon Football Club, wonder what will come out of that? I believe he said pretty soon.

Well all I can say is this .

Hird believes he is in the right and has done his time. Now wants to come back, as is his right, to coach.
(even though his mate has almost whiteanted him).

He is courageous enough to continue his battle, he is the only one at the moment with any character at all, he won't give in and nor should he ,and he still has the reputations of his players in his mind as well.

Don't believe that? I couldn't give a s**t , he's going on because he believes he's right.

Danks is going through with his case because I think he will open up the guts of lots of people right up the middle, when he takes the kit and caboodle to court. He also must think he has some rights too.

Once again to my well educated legal experts on big footy, I am talking about fairness , I am talking about half baked accusations, I am talking about an ASADA investigation that is either dodgy , incompetent or well hidden for reasons unknown, but will be known, sooner than later.

Lastly, Leigh Mathews, I heard and watched his comments about James Hird .

I think in his context it was that there is so much manure going around that maybe for James perhaps he should get out of the cyclone, that's my take on that, for his own well being. Mathews was concerned and looking at it from a football perspective.

He won't back down because he's taken the year off kicking, other gutless individuals won't follow through. Cowards.

I like Bomber as a coach , but he says not much, and when he does speak , he actually doesn't say anything, good pollie , very suss in my opinion now.

But at the Essendon party the other night , he spoke alright and dropped an atom bomb . Who needs enemies when you got a friend like that!

 

[JoondalupJ]

Your ignorance is on show again.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

PS have you anything to say about this without just telling me I'm ignorant. Look if there is a hanging I'll bring the wool , all you have to do is bring the needles. Maybe they may use the guillotine too.
What is a Nexus 7 Tapatalk?

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Ridiculous comment. Danks manages the supplement program, he misleads the players or if he misleads the players, you say, they are taking drugs without knowing , but they still have to answer for that, even if they were duped???? NOT DOPED ha ha .

For me that's the whole unfair set up. What organisation can assume guilt and apply show cause notices when if they (as you say) have the evidence won't and wouldn't show anything even before Hird and Ess court case was begun.
Also they are talking about penalties over the off season , you got half an idea what I'm talking about , YET?

There has been nothing charged , as far as you or me know, but they are talking penalties , I thought the penalties were being served or had been by no finals 2 million fine and Hird screwed in his job and taking the fall for a year.

ASADA must be very powerful, threatening asking for answers , TO WHAT? Tell me mate I 'd like to know the charges, AND IF AND WHEN THEY ARE BROUGHT INTO THE OPEN , why so long, if they could have wiped the floor Hird and Ess before this . why haven't they?

But you can't, because you can quote rules til the cows come home , listen if they are all as guilty as hell , I'll f*****g well hang em myself , I'll pull the lever! You bring your knitting.

The aim is purely and simply to keep the sports clean.
There are whole governments that would give their athletes drugs without their knowledge.

 

[sojin_muneshi]

I just replayed the Footy classified from last night and watched it again .
Raving about James Hird and why these experts think he should go or be removed or sacked, watching Craig Hutchison and Damien Barrett and Caroline Wilson and Gary Lyon. I'll say something about them later.

On that show I watched Bomber Thomson's speech at the Essendon end of year event. If ever a man not only pushed the knife in but twisted it Bomber did. If you haven't or don't, watch it, ask someone you know who does , they'll tell you about bombers speech .

Bomber a great coach who said after quitting Geelong, his reasons were that he was warn out, or to much pressure, then said no I won't go to Essendon , then he said yes I will go and help James , then he filled in for a year and said "only this year" James is coach, but at the Essendon end of year get together , he showed what he really is.
Yes he's a good coach, but then he's a man who is prepared to destroy his senior coach, Hird, so the club can get on with the job because "he just can't walk backwards" now, and and he can't work in a place where he is not the position that has control or that suits him, not in as many words, but he wants the senior job at Essendon . Fine , but the way it is being done is murder.

He's backing out too, like rats, you just can't betray people like that. His character is in totally question now. James is going to fight , his mate has left his back.

Essendon have turmoil because they have to move into this trade and draft period.

They have no, set in, concrete coach . They have innuendo rampaging through their club so who will want to join them?
Because they have to do football business at this time of year they, have to bring to a head this ASADA nonsense.
Hence Little's, and the boards move to NOT appeal the court case. And to maybe persuade Hird to back down
along with them or get the sack!

What a betrayal when they were fighting the same cause as James Hird , but now they have let him down , forgot about his back and deserted him.

James Hird won't back off because he believes he's in the right.

Caroline and crew now, on channel 9 last night and my re watching it today.

All of them Barrett , Hutchinson and Wilson , say Hird should go , even though they play a clip of the PM being asked about the ASADA V Essendon shamozzle.

He says this needs resolving , there is a lot of things going on , it has been going on too a long time , and no body really knows what is going on at all.

That's the Prime Minister , who Caroline Wilson says is just saying what the rest of the country is saying!
Nobody knows what is going on or who did what .

Bringing back my point to you, and others on here with your opinions, which your free to make, that I'm ignorant and don't understand anything.

Well these channel 9 folk all nodded to each other when saying Hird should go or be sacked , or he's finished. WHY?
They know, no more than you and me!

Because he's guilty of something??? He's served his time hasn't he???

Maybe Essendon decide to kill him off because getting justice is just too hard??? And we have to get on with the football, let ASADA cripple the careers of some young players , with innuendo and mud that will stick , when ASADA have yet to show any evidence, yet some of you on your side of this argument, seem to think that ASADA should be allowed to ask for show cause, without saying for what.

Maybe the sports legal set up is like that, it doesn't make it right. OR FAIR!

Another thing for you to contemplate.
DANK'S your definite "guilty party" according to some of your mates on here, is , according to Damien Barrett sueing, ASADA the AFL and the Essendon Football Club, wonder what will come out of that? I believe he said pretty soon.

Well all I can say is this .

Hird believes he is in the right and has done his time. Now wants to come back, as is his right, to coach.
(even though his mate has almost whiteanted him).

He is courageous enough to continue his battle, he is the only one at the moment with any character at all, he won't give in and nor should he ,and he still has the reputations of his players in his mind as well.

Don't believe that? I couldn't give a s**t , he's going on because he believes he's right.

Danks is going through with his case because I think he will open up the guts of lots of people right up the middle, when he takes the kit and caboodle to court. He also must think he has some rights too.

Once again to my well educated legal experts on big footy, I am talking about fairness , I am talking about half baked accusations, I am talking about an ASADA investigation that is either dodgy , incompetent or well hidden for reasons unknown, but will be known, sooner than later.

Lastly, Leigh Mathews, I heard and watched his comments about James Hird .

I think in his context it was that there is so much manure going around that maybe for James perhaps he should get out of the cyclone, that's my take on that, for his own well being. Mathews was concerned and looking at it from a football perspective.

He won't back down because he's taken the year off kicking, other gutless individuals won't follow through. Cowards.

I like Bomber as a coach , but he says not much, and when he does speak , he actually doesn't say anything, good pollie , very suss in my opinion now.

But at the Essendon party the other night , he spoke alright and dropped an atom bomb . Who needs enemies when you got a friend like that!

As you say - Hird is welcome to have his appeal, but if the EFC decides to sack him for contract breach thats their right too.

But the Hird appeal isnt about proving he or Essendon or the Players are innocent - this appeal and the earlier court case was about the way ASADA conducted its investigation, and ASADA won that case and is just as likely to win the appeal.

If Essendon, Hird and the players were not using banned substances then the quickest ways to clear their names is to let the ASADA process move on to the charges and releasing the evidence, then they and you will finally see what it is.

Your claim that they have already been punished is confusing what has happened so far.

Essendon self reported, had an internal investigation and sacked various staff, all based on Essendons own assessment of the poor governance and record keeping and management oversight- ie under employment law- all NOTHING to do with ASADA and its processes.

Then the AFL applied penalities on Essendon, Hird and Thompson for bringing the game into disrepute, which they clearly did. Or provided no evidence to the contrary. - all under AFL participant contracts and again nothing to do with ASADA.

Now ASADAs process is moving from investigations to charges, now the evidence will come out and be tested, the players will have their chance to prove their innocence- just like you seem to want for them?

And of course there is still WorkSafe investigations lurking in the background.

If Little, Hird and Dank are right and nothing wrong was done, then its taking a long time for their evidence to be dragged out to prove it - dont you think?

It seems to most of us that this is because they dont have any evidence to prove it was above board?

Let the ASADA process move forward and let the evidence from both sides be put on the table for all to see, and its time for Hird to stop this groping for straws, and side show/distraction of Red Herrings.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

As you say - Hird is welcome to have his appeal, but if the EFC decides to sack him for contract breach thats their right too.

But the Hird appeal isnt about proving he or Essendon or the Players are innocent - this appeal and the earlier court case was about the way ASADA conducted its investigation, and ASADA won that case and is just as likely to win the appeal.

If Essendon, Hird and the players were not using banned substances then the quickest ways to clear their names is to let the ASADA process move on to the charges and releasing the evidence, then they and you will finally see what it is.

Your claim that they have already been punished is confusing what has happened so far.

Essendon self reported, had an internal investigation and sacked various staff, all based on Essendons own assessment of the poor governance and record keeping and management oversight- ie under employment law- all NOTHING to do with ASADA and its processes.

Then the AFL applied penalities on Essendon, Hird and Thompson for bringing the game into disrepute, which they clearly did. Or provided no evidence to the contrary. - all under AFL participant contracts and again nothing to do with ASADA.

Now ASADAs process is moving from investigations to charges, now the evidence will come out and be tested, the players will have their chance to prove their innocence- just like you seem to want for them?

And of course there is still WorkSafe investigations lurking in the background.

If Little, Hird and Dank are right and nothing wrong was done, then its taking a long time for their evidence to be dragged out to prove it - dont you think?

It seems to most of us that this is because they dont have any evidence to prove it was above board?

Let the ASADA process move forward and let the evidence from both sides be put on the table for all to see, and its time for Hird to stop this groping for straws, and side show/distraction of Red Herrings.

The difficulty for the players may well be that they don't know if they are innocent.
They have to rely on the word of others, others who's word is increasingly suspect.

 

[JoondalupJ]

As you say - Hird is welcome to have his appeal, but if the EFC decides to sack him for contract breach thats their right too.

But the Hird appeal isnt about proving he or Essendon or the Players are innocent - this appeal and the earlier court case was about the way ASADA conducted its investigation, and ASADA won that case and is just as likely to win the appeal.

If Essendon, Hird and the players were not using banned substances then the quickest ways to clear their names is to let the ASADA process move on to the charges and releasing the evidence, then they and you will finally see what it is.

Your claim that they have already been punished is confusing what has happened so far.

Essendon self reported, had an internal investigation and sacked various staff, all based on Essendons own assessment of the poor governance and record keeping and management oversight- ie under employment law- all NOTHING to do with ASADA and its processes.

Then the AFL applied penalities on Essendon, Hird and Thompson for bringing the game into disrepute, which they clearly did. Or provided no evidence to the contrary. - all under AFL participant contracts and again nothing to do with ASADA.

Now ASADAs process is moving from investigations to charges, now the evidence will come out and be tested, the players will have their chance to prove their innocence- just like you seem to want for them?

And of course there is still WorkSafe investigations lurking in the background.

If Little, Hird and Dank are right and nothing wrong was done, then its taking a long time for their evidence to be dragged out to prove it - dont you think?

It seems to most of us that this is because they dont have any evidence to prove it was above board?

Let the ASADA process move forward and let the evidence from both sides be put on the table for all to see, and its time for Hird to stop this groping for straws, and side show/distraction of Red Herrings.

Heavens above , that's what I've been saying , no one has put evidence anywhere, I have already said the court case was about ASADA and the AFL and how they conducted the investigation, NOT ABOUT GUILT OR INNOCENCE, it was lost , I have heard that the chances of a win in appeal by the Hird side is very good. By the way.

You still appear to have the knife out for Hird, without evidence either way.

All I ever said was there is no evidence, just innuendo, ASADA if they are so confidant could have brought this to a close with their "evidence???" much earlier.

Like when every one got up at that press conference and blathered on about this mighty game destroying story of injections. Even the politicians, then the stuff about the "Warning" from guess who, I wonder where the cover ups come from?

Once again I'm talking about fairness to young men who play football, but it seems everyone bar a few want James Hirds blood , for what? Because he is a good coach and a great footballer , nothing else is proved , it shows the shallowness of some of the commentry by some on big footy. RE READ MY POST AGAIN AND SEE HOW THE NIGHT OF THE LONG KNIVES IS PANNING OUT.
Its not about who is the legal expert on big footy its about fairness. If I'm totally wrong I don't care , the fact is none of you can be totally right YET!

 

[BlueWorld]

Heavens above , that's what I've been saying , no one has put evidence anywhere, I have already said the court case was about ASADA and the AFL and how they conducted the investigation, NOT ABOUT GUILT OR INNOCENCE, it was lost , I have heard that the chances of a win in appeal by the Hird side is very good. By the way.

You still appear to have the knife out for Hird, without evidence either way.

All I ever said was there is no evidence, just innuendo, ASADA if they are so confidant could have brought this to a close with their "evidence???" much earlier.

Re-read your first paragraph and try to understand how your conclusion make no sense.

 

[Randomizor]

Heavens above , that's what I've been saying , no one has put evidence anywhere, I have already said the court case was about ASADA and the AFL and how they conducted the investigation, NOT ABOUT GUILT OR INNOCENCE, it was lost , I have heard that the chances of a win in appeal by the Hird side is very good. By the way.

You still appear to have the knife out for Hird, without evidence either way.

All I ever said was there is no evidence, just innuendo, ASADA if they are so confidant could have brought this to a close with their "evidence???" much earlier.

Like when every one got up at that press conference and blathered on about this mighty game destroying story of injections. Even the politicians, then the stuff about the "Warning" from guess who, I wonder where the cover ups come from?

Once again I'm talking about fairness to young men who play football, but it seems everyone bar a few want James Hirds blood , for what? Because he is a good coach and a great footballer , nothing else is proved , it shows the shallowness of some of the commentry by some on big footy. RE READ MY POST AGAIN AND SEE HOW THE NIGHT OF THE LONG KNIVES IS PANNING OUT.
Its not about who is the legal expert on big footy its about fairness. If I'm totally wrong I don't care , the fact is none of you can be totally right YET!

Look you're definitely allowed to have the opinion that evidence should be shown at the SCN stage. I'm sure more than a few others agree with it.

That said, ASADA's process is to not show evidence at this stage. EFC are signed up to this process whilst they remain in the AFL. There is no injustice here. If EFC doesn't like the way ASADA do their business then they are free to leave the AFL.

 

[Randomizor]

Heavens above , that's what I've been saying , no one has put evidence anywhere, I have already said the court case was about ASADA and the AFL and how they conducted the investigation, NOT ABOUT GUILT OR INNOCENCE, it was lost , I have heard that the chances of a win in appeal by the Hird side is very good. By the way.

You still appear to have the knife out for Hird, without evidence either way.

All I ever said was there is no evidence, just innuendo, ASADA if they are so confidant could have brought this to a close with their "evidence???" much earlier.

Like when every one got up at that press conference and blathered on about this mighty game destroying story of injections. Even the politicians, then the stuff about the "Warning" from guess who, I wonder where the cover ups come from?

Once again I'm talking about fairness to young men who play football, but it seems everyone bar a few want James Hirds blood , for what? Because he is a good coach and a great footballer , nothing else is proved , it shows the shallowness of some of the commentry by some on big footy. RE READ MY POST AGAIN AND SEE HOW THE NIGHT OF THE LONG KNIVES IS PANNING OUT.
Its not about who is the legal expert on big footy its about fairness. If I'm totally wrong I don't care , the fact is none of you can be totally right YET!

Regarding the appeal:

What are your thoughts on the points outlined here: http://sociallitigator.com/2014/10/02/round-two-how-might-a-full-court-approach-james-hirds-appeal/

 

[JoondalupJ]

Regarding the appeal:

What are your thoughts on the points outlined here: http://sociallitigator.com/2014/10/02/round-two-how-might-a-full-court-approach-james-hirds-appeal/

Well having read all of that I realise that James Hird is probably as confused about all this ledal argument , like I probably am. But I think he has some close company that knows and understands the law.

I'm not sure if you were trying to help, myself and others understand the complication of what this court case is actually about.Or throw a line??

From my observation it seems all that I have just read is information, about whether the ASADA and AFL joint investigation, was legal for them to engage the way they did.

Well I understood what was and is going on , and I see technicalities with time, and what the actual questions to the court are or can be.

So you have presented a good point, presenting all that legal information either as a helping hand or a hook on a line..

You know, maybe the law is too complicated to be fair.

Maybe it is so complicated it can be manipulated and the average person has to rely on some legal eagle and big fees to get by .

Again if this is about what the appeals court can make judgement on , then fine, because it isn't making judgement on what actually happened. Is it?

It is not a court case about doping players or sport supplements is it ?

Its about opinion as to whether the appeal is worth going for or whether the judges cannot make decisions on anything in time. Its about someone thinking Hird has no right to proceed and protect himself and any other people (players) that may be hurt by this investigation , when the investigators will not show evidence.

So whether I understand the legal intricacies of your link , doesn't matter , maybe James is clutching at straws ?

Point is he has been ramrodded , deserted and betrayed by folk who were challenging the ASADA /AFL joint investigation with him very recently.

If the appeal court is a dead horse being kicked , well bad luck.

When ASADA go to town on James Hird and when Danks sues and speaks out and when THE TRUTH is revealed, well hopefully things will be set straight.

For me plain honest justice and truth from all sides is what is needed. Your link I have just read, seems to tell me that every thing is so confusing that the Law sometimes is an ass.

Who did what deed , when did they do it , who knew , who didn't , it is such a conglomeration of cods wallop , did big Andrew stick his nose in early , what was being taken if anything , sport supplements , steroids ???? peptides , legal or maybe not ????? I've said this a hundred times .

Let us wait and see. If we ever do?

But persecuting people on a level that Hird has been condemned by, is pathetic bullshit.

The appeal? You may be right, it may well be too complicated those high court learned gentleman. Is that right word. Good night.

 

[JoondalupJ]

Look you're definitely allowed to have the opinion that evidence should be shown at the SCN stage. I'm sure more than a few others agree with it.

That said, ASADA's process is to not show evidence at this stage. EFC are signed up to this process whilst they remain in the AFL. There is no injustice here. If EFC doesn't like the way ASADA do their business then they are free to leave the AFL.

Oh come on??? What about all the people involved , the fans, the members, the players, the opposition clubs that want to play them , fair dinkum leave the AFL, why would they want to, ASADA hasn't proved any one guilty of anything yet is discussing off season penalties like the NRL. who fell over and took the wrap and in the long run have branded even the innocent of being dope takers for sport.

Really I'm right, most people on big footy want to see Essendon get crunched , doesn't matter for why or what , just give em a good kicking , we'll enjoy that.

PS... there is injustice if your accused of something and asked to show cause and pay a penalty without any evidence presented.

But apparently thats the rules for sport doping bodies thay can do anything they like!

 

[JoondalupJ]

Re-read your first paragraph and try to understand how your conclusion make no sense.

Just explain it mate , I haven't got a clue what you've seen or read , I've written a lot of words, if I confuse you then either I'm a dope or you are too dopey to understand me . Whichever I don't give a toss.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Well having read all of that I realise that James Hird is probably as confused about all this ledal argument , like I probably am. But I think he has some close company that knows and understands the law.

I'm not sure if you were trying to help, myself and others understand the complication of what this court case is actually about.Or throw a line??

From my observation it seems all that I have just read is information, about whether the ASADA and AFL joint investigation, was legal for them to engage the way they did.

Well I understood what was and is going on , and I see technicalities with time, and what the actual questions to the court are or can be.

So you have presented a good point, presenting all that legal information either as a helping hand or a hook on a line..

You know, maybe the law is too complicated to be fair.

Maybe it is so complicated it can be manipulated and the average person has to rely on some legal eagle and big fees to get by .

Again if this is about what the appeals court can make judgement on , then fine, because it isn't making judgement on what actually happened. Is it?

It is not a court case about doping players or sport supplements is it ?

Its about opinion as to whether the appeal is worth going for or whether the judges cannot make decisions on anything in time. Its about someone thinking Hird has no right to proceed and protect himself and any other people (players) that may be hurt by this investigation , when the investigators will not show evidence.

So whether I understand the legal intricacies of your link , doesn't matter , maybe James is clutching at straws ?

Point is he has been ramrodded , deserted and betrayed by folk who were challenging the ASADA /AFL joint investigation with him very recently.

If the appeal court is a dead horse being kicked , well bad luck.

When ASADA go to town on James Hird and when Danks sues and speaks out and when THE TRUTH is revealed, well hopefully things will be set straight.

For me plain honest justice and truth from all sides is what is needed. Your link I have just read, seems to tell me that every thing is so confusing that the Law sometimes is an ass.

Who did what deed , when did they do it , who knew , who didn't , it is such a conglomeration of cods wallop , did big Andrew stick his nose in early , what was being taken if anything , sport supplements , steroids ???? peptides , legal or maybe not ????? I've said this a hundred times .

Let us wait and see. If we ever do?

But persecuting people on a level that Hird has been condemned by, is pathetic bullshit.

The appeal? You may be right, it may well be too complicated those high court learned gentleman. Is that right word. Good night.

I thought it was pretty good, and explained it well.
It certainly doesn't seem to be the law that's being an ass here.
If you don't get it maybe you should refrain from commenting until the HUN tells you whether James is guilty or not. If you took off your glasses with the James Hird holograms in them, maybe it would make a bit more sense.


As for James being close to someone who knows and understands the law, maybe she's out of her depth. I have trouble imagining that anyone would have confidence in Tania Hird's ability in law, or James Hird's ability in "Business Strategy" after this fiasco.

 

[The_Wookie]

Oh come on??? What about all the people involved , the fans, the members, the players, the opposition clubs that want to play them , fair dinkum leave the AFL, why would they want to, ASADA hasn't proved any one guilty of anything yet is discussing off season penalties like the NRL. who fell over and took the wrap and in the long run have branded even the innocent of being dope takers for sport.

And its up to the players whether they accept those deals or not. The fact is the process generally does not require evidence at the show cause notice stage, but rather requires the athlete to provide reasons why ASADA could be mistaken in its allegations.

Really I'm right, most people on big footy want to see Essendon get crunched , doesn't matter for why or what , just give em a good kicking , we'll enjoy that.

I think most people want to see the evidence - not to mention the considerable circumstantial evidence presented in the media, Essendons own internal report and the allegations in the AFL interim report - and in fact most people would have seen the evidence already at the ADRVP stage if Essendon and its players had dealt with the Show Cause notices with ASADA from the start.

PS... there is injustice if your accused of something and asked to show cause and pay a penalty without any evidence presented.

But apparently thats the rules for sport doping bodies thay can do anything they like!

Well actually ASADA cant. They can recommend penalties, but in Australia its up to the ADRVP - a body independent of ASADA and the AFL at that - to determine whether the evidence satisfies the tests required under the NAD scheme and ASADA act, unless the players take a deal. Further, it then falls on the AFL to determine the penalty, not ASADA.