Mega Thread JUDGMENT -Essendon/Hird v ASADA Trial: Investigation legal (club/ASADA/AFL/AFLPA/WADA statements)

[Better ahead]

Heavens above , that's what I've been saying , no one has put evidence anywhere, I have already said the court case was about ASADA and the AFL and how they conducted the investigation, NOT ABOUT GUILT OR INNOCENCE, it was lost , I have heard that the chances of a win in appeal by the Hird side is very good. By the way.

You still appear to have the knife out for Hird, without evidence either way.

All I ever said was there is no evidence, just innuendo, ASADA if they are so confidant could have brought this to a close with their "evidence???" much earlier.

Like when every one got up at that press conference and blathered on about this mighty game destroying story of injections. Even the politicians, then the stuff about the "Warning" from guess who, I wonder where the cover ups come from?

Once again I'm talking about fairness to young men who play football, but it seems everyone bar a few want James Hirds blood , for what? Because he is a good coach and a great footballer , nothing else is proved , it shows the shallowness of some of the commentry by some on big footy. RE READ MY POST AGAIN AND SEE HOW THE NIGHT OF THE LONG KNIVES IS PANNING OUT.
Its not about who is the legal expert on big footy its about fairness. If I'm totally wrong I don't care , the fact is none of you can be totally right YET!

I've read some drivel in my time, but this takes the cake.

 

[JoondalupJ]

I've read some drivel in my time, but this takes the cake.

I'm glad , maybe you could try writing some drivel too. You know by actually having an opinion, and something to say. Any chance you might have an idea. Debating is what this forum is about isn't it? Say something or just back out behind your protective door and shut up.

 

[JoondalupJ]

And its up to the players whether they accept those deals or not. The fact is the process generally does not require evidence at the show cause notice stage, but rather requires the athlete to provide reasons why ASADA could be mistaken in its allegations.



I think most people want to see the evidence - not to mention the considerable circumstantial evidence presented in the media, Essendons own internal report and the allegations in the AFL interim report - and in fact most people would have seen the evidence already at the ADRVP stage if Essendon and its players had dealt with the Show Cause notices with ASADA from the start.



Well actually ASADA cant. They can recommend penalties, but in Australia its up to the ADRVP - a body independent of ASADA and the AFL at that - to determine whether the evidence satisfies the tests required under the NAD scheme and ASADA act, unless the players take a deal. Further, it then falls on the AFL to determine the penalty, not ASADA.

You know what? Allegations, is a bloody gigantic word???

 

[JoondalupJ]

And its up to the players whether they accept those deals or not. The fact is the process generally does not require evidence at the show cause notice stage, but rather requires the athlete to provide reasons why ASADA could be mistaken in its allegations.



I think most people want to see the evidence - not to mention the considerable circumstantial evidence presented in the media, Essendons own internal report and the allegations in the AFL interim report - and in fact most people would have seen the evidence already at the ADRVP stage if Essendon and its players had dealt with the Show Cause notices with ASADA from the start.



Well actually ASADA cant. They can recommend penalties, but in Australia its up to the ADRVP - a body independent of ASADA and the AFL at that - to determine whether the evidence satisfies the tests required under the NAD scheme and ASADA act, unless the players take a deal. Further, it then falls on the AFL to determine the penalty, not ASADA.

Mistaken in its allegations? (ASADA)? Well there you are , prove your not guilty before we consider you are, or are not. Then in the mean time while you are not speaking (players) we'll just assume you are guilty , and show you no evidence, but you (the players) better provide evidence your innocent first
then we'll (ASADA) discuss penalties over the off season for you to consider after we (ASADA) have discussed it with the ADRVP, then we'll (ASADA) pass you on to the AFL to give you the punishment.

Sounds real fair to me . That's justice ??????? Now the comment the process actually does not require evidence at the show cause notice stage.

Well it f*****G well should!!!

Essendon should have dealt with ASADA from the start and we'd all know the evidence, I'd suggest the coiling together of the ASADA mob and the AFL has created some very awkward moments for people in power and the investigators , some of the hierarchy from the AFL and perhaps some sympathetic ASADA people , maybe that is why Hird is fighting against this and going to appeal, what is truth and what isn't is so far gone away now that proof is almost impossible, so all the legal terms and the lettered names given to bodies all sounds good but means s**t.

Until Mr Danks little show starts up. Thanks for the discussion folks . I am now being kicked around by people who just want to insult me. I am no lawyer and all I see is lawyer bullshit. If these people are all terribly guilty then so be it.

I am simply putting forward the unfairness of this stupid process, when I read an answer to one of my posts suggesting Essendon leave the AFL then I see the more stupid this argument gets. If anyone wants to put a point forward to me , do it, if I'm wrong in the long run well thats fine I'll say so , but from what I've been seeing this just gets more tangled. Yoy people who disagree with my take fine, but I'm allowed an opinion.

You gutless wonders that just throw out insults , don't , but if you have something to say , say it.

I've been concerned about this balls up since the politicians got involved . Then every one jumped off the boat or jumped into a hiding place, until Hird took the head kick . Then they deserted him. It makes me angry , if it was my club I 'd be infuriated, but it seems even Essendon posters are backing off now, probably because the bleeding media are beating up all sorts of maybes and rumours and talking like Hird is a gangster, what bulldust.

And Lethal wants him to resign.

 

[Chameleon75]

Mistaken in its allegations? (ASADA)? Well there you are , prove your not guilty before we consider you are, or are not. Then in the mean time while you are not speaking (players) we'll just assume you are guilty , and show you no evidence, but you (the players) better provide evidence your innocent first
then we'll (ASADA) discuss penalties over the off season for you to consider after we (ASADA) have discussed it with the ADRVP, then we'll (ASADA) pass you on to the AFL to give you the punishment.

Sounds real fair to me . That's justice ??????? Now the comment the process actually does not require evidence at the show cause notice stage.

Well it f*****G well should!!!

Essendon should have dealt with ASADA from the start and we'd all know the evidence, I'd suggest the coiling together of the ASADA mob and the AFL has created some very awkward moments for people in power and the investigators , some of the hierarchy from the AFL and perhaps some sympathetic ASADA people , maybe that is why Hird is fighting against this and going to appeal, what is truth and what isn't is so far gone away now that proof is almost impossible, so all the legal terms and the lettered names given to bodies all sounds good but means s**t.

Until Mr Danks little show starts up. Thanks for the discussion folks . I am now being kicked around by people who just want to insult me. I am no lawyer and all I see is lawyer bullshit. If these people are all terribly guilty then so be it.

I am simply putting forward the unfairness of this stupid process, when I read an answer to one of my posts suggesting Essendon leave the AFL then I see the more stupid this argument gets. If anyone wants to put a point forward to me , do it, if I'm wrong in the long run well thats fine I'll say so , but from what I've been seeing this just gets more tangled. Yoy people who disagree with my take fine, but I'm allowed an opinion.

You gutless wonders that just throw out insults , don't , but if you have something to say , say it.

I've been concerned about this balls up since the politicians got involved . Then every one jumped off the boat or jumped into a hiding place, until Hird took the head kick . Then they deserted him. It makes me angry , if it was my club I 'd be infuriated, but it seems even Essendon posters are backing off now, probably because the bleeding media are beating up all sorts of maybes and rumours and talking like Hird is a gangster, what bulldust.

And Lethal wants him to resign.

I think asada holding off on showing evidence is about not having it leaked like the last time they shared information.

 

[JoondalupJ]

I thought it was pretty good, and explained it well.
It certainly doesn't seem to be the law that's being an ass here.
If you don't get it maybe you should refrain from commenting until the HUN tells you whether James is guilty or not. If you took off your glasses with the James Hird holograms in them, maybe it would make a bit more sense.


As for James being close to someone who knows and understands the law, maybe she's out of her depth. I have trouble imagining that anyone would have confidence in Tania Hird's ability in law, or James Hird's ability in "Business Strategy" after this fiasco.

Why would you think that? So now Tania Hird is an unqualified person when it come to the law , and all Hirds lawyers who advise him are fools too. Well why where do you get infomation that assumes those things. Do you know them.
I certainly don't and I am no groupie follower of Hird. I say again , if expect me to understand totally all your legal commentry and all the rules that you follow to be a legal practitioner then I am not that smart mate.
I am smart enough to know when something stinks, the allegations with no provided evidence stinks. The fact that an AFL big fella may have been involved some way at that meeting night at Essendon's president or chairman 's home, on a phone or whatever, stinks, conversations about what penalties may be given to players if they "co-operate" stinks, co-operate to what charge. YET? 1 NOTE is the substance steroids peptides , vitamins , sport supplements , what if anything? did these people get accused of taking?

I said before and I'll say again the NRL players who took deals , whether for the same thing as the AFL players or different , they have been part of a smear on the other NRL players who are innocent.

The "condemners" who post on this forum before anything is proven will believe that all are guilty no matter what. Its unfair , so I give up talking , we are obviously talking about different issues , you with your legal expertise and me just looking at what seems bloody unfair.

I'll read the responses but I will leave you to it . Even the crettins that want to insult me . Sometimes funny but not real intelligent hey?

Good luck. GO THE MIGHTY MIGHTY MIGHTY HAWKS.

 

[Argy]

Mistaken in its allegations? (ASADA)? Well there you are , prove your not guilty before we consider you are, or are not. Then in the mean time while you are not speaking (players) we'll just assume you are guilty , and show you no evidence, but you (the players) better provide evidence your innocent first
then we'll (ASADA) discuss penalties over the off season for you to consider after we (ASADA) have discussed it with the ADRVP, then we'll (ASADA) pass you on to the AFL to give you the punishment.

Sounds real fair to me . That's justice ??????? Now the comment the process actually does not require evidence at the show cause notice stage.

Well it f*****G well should!!!

As soon as you accept the process your life will become easier.

Essendon should have dealt with ASADA from the start and we'd all know the evidence, I'd suggest the coiling together of the ASADA mob and the AFL has created some very awkward moments for people in power and the investigators , some of the hierarchy from the AFL and perhaps some sympathetic ASADA people , maybe that is why Hird is fighting against this and going to appeal, what is truth and what isn't is so far gone away now that proof is almost impossible, so all the legal terms and the lettered names given to bodies all sounds good but means s**t.

The court ruled that what they did was perfectly fine. Hird is fighting this because he wants the evidence suppressed.

Until Mr Danks little show starts up. Thanks for the discussion folks . I am now being kicked around by people who just want to insult me. I am no lawyer and all I see is lawyer bullshit. If these people are all terribly guilty then so be it.

I am simply putting forward the unfairness of this stupid process, when I read an answer to one of my posts suggesting Essendon leave the AFL then I see the more stupid this argument gets. If anyone wants to put a point forward to me , do it, if I'm wrong in the long run well thats fine I'll say so , but from what I've been seeing this just gets more tangled. Yoy people who disagree with my take fine, but I'm allowed an opinion.

Hird and the players signed up to the process when they agreed to work within the AFL system. It is not unfair when somone tries to hold them to their contracts.

You gutless wonders that just throw out insults , don't , but if you have something to say , say it.

Wow! Pot, kettle.

I've been concerned about this balls up since the politicians got involved . Then every one jumped off the boat or jumped into a hiding place, until Hird took the head kick . Then they deserted him. It makes me angry , if it was my club I 'd be infuriated, but it seems even Essendon posters are backing off now, probably because the bleeding media are beating up all sorts of maybes and rumours and talking like Hird is a gangster, what bulldust.

And Lethal wants him to resign.

You seem infuriated anyway.

 

[The_Wookie]

Why would you think that? So now Tania Hird is an unqualified person when it come to the law , and all Hirds lawyers who advise him are fools too. Well why where do you get infomation that assumes those things. Do you know them.
I certainly don't and I am no groupie follower of Hird. I say again , if expect me to understand totally all your legal commentry and all the rules that you follow to be a legal practitioner then I am not that smart mate.
I am smart enough to know when something stinks, the allegations with no provided evidence stinks. The fact that an AFL big fella may have been involved some way at that meeting night at Essendon's president or chairman 's home, on a phone or whatever, stinks, conversations about what penalties may be given to players if they "co-operate" stinks, co-operate to what charge. YET? 1 NOTE is the substance steroids peptides , vitamins , sport supplements , what if anything? did these people get accused of taking?

I said before and I'll say again the NRL players who took deals , whether for the same thing as the AFL players or different , they have been part of a smear on the other NRL players who are innocent.

The "condemners" who post on this forum before anything is proven will believe that all are guilty no matter what. Its unfair , so I give up talking , we are obviously talking about different issues , you with your legal expertise and me just looking at what seems bloody unfair.

I'll read the responses but I will leave you to it . Even the crettins that want to insult me . Sometimes funny but not real intelligent hey?

Good luck. GO THE MIGHTY MIGHTY MIGHTY HAWKS.

Your last two posts have consisted heavily of insults and you've done nothing but impugn the intelligence and arguments of other posters in a rather hostile manner. Treat people decently and they'll treat you the same way. But thats ok, you take your ball and go home.

its not your fault that the general tide of public opinion is against you. Just as you are entitled to make your own call on what you've seen, every poster on the HTB is also afforded that privelige - and on the little circumstantial evidence we've seen so far, plus various external reports, punishments already administered by the AFL, comments made by persons directly involved and the general demeanor of the Essendon Football clubs senior officials and current coach, they've arrived at conclusions that can and will be different to yours. Tolerance goes both ways.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Why would you think that? So now Tania Hird is an unqualified person when it come to the law , and all Hirds lawyers who advise him are fools too. Well why where do you get infomation that assumes those things. Do you know them.
I certainly don't and I am no groupie follower of Hird. I say again , if expect me to understand totally all your legal commentry and all the rules that you follow to be a legal practitioner then I am not that smart mate.
I am smart enough to know when something stinks, the allegations with no provided evidence stinks. The fact that an AFL big fella may have been involved some way at that meeting night at Essendon's president or chairman 's home, on a phone or whatever, stinks, conversations about what penalties may be given to players if they "co-operate" stinks, co-operate to what charge. YET? 1 NOTE is the substance steroids peptides , vitamins , sport supplements , what if anything? did these people get accused of taking?

I said before and I'll say again the NRL players who took deals , whether for the same thing as the AFL players or different , they have been part of a smear on the other NRL players who are innocent.

The "condemners" who post on this forum before anything is proven will believe that all are guilty no matter what. Its unfair , so I give up talking , we are obviously talking about different issues , you with your legal expertise and me just looking at what seems bloody unfair.

I'll read the responses but I will leave you to it . Even the crettins that want to insult me . Sometimes funny but not real intelligent hey?

Good luck. GO THE MIGHTY MIGHTY MIGHTY HAWKS.

I didn't say she was unqualified.
I questioned her ability.
If she is advising her husband it would seem to be poor advise.
Perhaps she should stick to conveyancing or something.

Bear in mind that Essendon were originally advised that they would lose their proposed ( at the time ) legal suit. It was only after they sought other advice that they decided to proceed.
Were they really surprised that when they kept asking they eventually found someone to give the advise they wanted?

 

[JoondalupJ]

Your last two posts have consisted heavily of insults and you've done nothing but impugn the intelligence and arguments of other posters in a rather hostile manner. Treat people decently and they'll treat you the same way. But thats ok, you take your ball and go home.

its not your fault that the general tide of public opinion is against you. Just as you are entitled to make your own call on what you've seen, every poster on the HTB is also afforded that privelige - and on the little circumstantial evidence we've seen so far, plus various external reports, punishments already administered by the AFL, comments made by persons directly involved and the general demeanor of the Essendon Football clubs senior officials and current coach, they've arrived at conclusions that can and will be different to yours. Tolerance goes both ways.

I've said that. Everything goes both ways. Except your opinion of me.Hostile? Me? I'm treated like a crettin. But you are one, and you have no idea of what is going on. Makes you really look to me like you actually have all the evidence and knowledge of the whole crime. Not the explanation of the ASADA / AFL versus Hird or Essendon. That's about the manner the investigation was conducted by two parties conjoined.Not about guilt or innocence, see?
Nothing to do with the injection claims and disclaims. That is my point, nothing proved, but all and sundry want to convict someone . When they simply don't know the facts. See?
Now my bat and ball are always on the pitch ready to play . I thought by the response to me who seems to disagree with everyone else, that I am ok to be abused as ignorant or lacking in understanding, so I thought some good opinion points about the actual charge would be good from other people interested in this other than me.
Conclusions different to mine ? Of course there will be , and maybe some that aren't different to mine. I haven't seen anything to prove any player guilty of taking illegal drugs , or banned substances , I would expect someone to be able to tell the truth about that. People have been accused of injecting something , one player says he was injected banned or not he doesn't know. Others say they were told different rulings from different bodies about what was being administered and that it was safe , apparently whether you are informed or not of the substance you are up for a penalty , ASADA rules?

Because this investigation has laid a black pall of stinking smoke over everything , with the likes of you and I commenting all the time , our esteemed media folk jumping in with buts and maybes who have no more info that you or I.

Think about how it all began and how seedy it was when Essendon "confessed " hah, if you know any more full provable things about the injections , tell everyone now.

I know the Hird appeal is about whether ASADA and the AFL should have been legally allowed to investigate conjunctively and seek information that way.

By the way Saints September my apologies I was going to get off this and leave it alone, but this Wookie Carlton person has thrown a bait.

I'll wait til he/she produces the evidence and gets a conviction.

 

[JoondalupJ]

Your last two posts have consisted heavily of insults and you've done nothing but impugn the intelligence and arguments of other posters in a rather hostile manner. Treat people decently and they'll treat you the same way. But thats ok, you take your ball and go home.

its not your fault that the general tide of public opinion is against you. Just as you are entitled to make your own call on what you've seen, every poster on the HTB is also afforded that privelige - and on the little circumstantial evidence we've seen so far, plus various external reports, punishments already administered by the AFL, comments made by persons directly involved and the general demeanor of the Essendon Football clubs senior officials and current coach, they've arrived at conclusions that can and will be different to yours. Tolerance goes both ways.

Whose hostile now, moderator wookie? You , as I am writing an opinion that you disagree with? So I'm rude and hostile, well only when I get abused for having an opinion. I didn't start it mate and tried to get off, but along comes another instigator, namely you. Friend lets leave it at that.

 

[The_Wookie]

Whose hostile now, moderator wookie? You , as I am writing an opinion that you disagree with? So I'm rude and hostile, well only when I get abused for having an opinion. I didn't start it mate and tried to get off, but along comes another instigator, namely you. Friend lets leave it at that.

Its not your opinion I care about, its the way its written. I dont care who started it. I certainly didnt instigate it. Im asking you to tone your posts down. Thats it for now.

 

[The_Wookie]

I've said that. Everything goes both ways. Except your opinion of me.Hostile? Me? I'm treated like a crettin. But you are one, and you have no idea of what is going on. Makes you really look to me like you actually have all the evidence and knowledge of the whole crime. Not the explanation of the ASADA / AFL versus Hird or Essendon. That's about the manner the investigation was conducted by two parties conjoined.Not about guilt or innocence, see?
Nothing to do with the injection claims and disclaims. That is my point, nothing proved, but all and sundry want to convict someone . When they simply don't know the facts. See?
Now my bat and ball are always on the pitch ready to play . I thought by the response to me who seems to disagree with everyone else, that I am ok to be abused as ignorant or lacking in understanding, so I thought some good opinion points about the actual charge would be good from other people interested in this other than me.
Conclusions different to mine ? Of course there will be , and maybe some that aren't different to mine. I haven't seen anything to prove any player guilty of taking illegal drugs , or banned substances , I would expect someone to be able to tell the truth about that. People have been accused of injecting something , one player says he was injected banned or not he doesn't know. Others say they were told different rulings from different bodies about what was being administered and that it was safe , apparently whether you are informed or not of the substance you are up for a penalty , ASADA rules?

Because this investigation has laid a black pall of stinking smoke over everything , with the likes of you and I commenting all the time , our esteemed media folk jumping in with buts and maybes who have no more info that you or I.

Think about how it all began and how seedy it was when Essendon "confessed " hah, if you know any more full provable things about the injections , tell everyone now.

I know the Hird appeal is about whether ASADA and the AFL should have been legally allowed to investigate conjunctively and seek information that way.

By the way Saints September my apologies I was going to get off this and leave it alone, but this Wookie Carlton person has thrown a bait.

I'll wait til he/she produces the evidence and gets a conviction.

Did I just not warn you about being personal? Threadban.

 

[Armchair Critic]

So now its imported drugs from Shanghai, when will John Wayne step into this circus?

There has been talk about China since the beginning of the Saga and also in the ACC report I am pretty sure (Don't quote me on the ACC part though)

 

[JoondalupJ]

I think Little is just as culpable. This will send the club to the wall financially if they continue with pointless court action. The decision today was emphatic.

No.

 

[jenny61_99]

So now its imported drugs from Shanghai, when will John Wayne step into this circus?

This whole investigation came about because of the importation of banned substances. From China. Welcome to 3 years ago.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

They have traced the whole thing from China to Charter to the Chemist, to Dank..... who said he gave it to a lab who destroyed it. ( lab denies all knowlege )
Then Dank gave Good Thymosin ( lol ) to Essendon, but remarkably didn't have a source for this magical stuff

The burden of proof required is less than reasonable doubt.

.

 

[Satan]

Well he's a seriously unlucky guy. Who'd have thunk that the same thing could happen three times in a row to the one fella, and yet not happen to anyone else?

Or maybe luck is not the issue.

I don't know where you got the idea that a positive test is or even should be the only anti doping violation.

Sadly he has passed away

 

[Demons09]

and sadly, these people live amongst us.

I lolled when this ten pound Pom from Joondalup used the word persecution to describe what was happening to the Essendon drug cheats.

 

[JoondalupJ]

I lolled when this ten pound Pom from Joondalup used the word persecution to describe what was happening to the Essendon drug cheats.

Where do you get ten pound pom from? Be careful.
I may be Anglo Saxon, but my mob came here in 1798. On a convict ship called the Hillsborough.
Why now in 2018 are you throwing comments around like that, which actually appear to be an insult , from your point of view anyway. You walk close to the line calling people names, in that manner.
Get over yourself and get over the Bombers , are you a little afraid of them these days.

 

[Catoggio76]

Sadly he has passed away

Bannister? Natural causes or suicide?

 

[Satan]

Bannister? Natural causes or suicide?

Pretty certain no 2

 

[Ancient Tiger]

Certainly sounds like suicide. When a young man dies and the police say there are no suspicious circumstances it usually means suicide.

 

[JoondalupJ]

Your last two posts have consisted heavily of insults and you've done nothing but impugn the intelligence and arguments of other posters in a rather hostile manner. Treat people decently and they'll treat you the same way. But thats ok, you take your ball and go home.

its not your fault that the general tide of public opinion is against you. Just as you are entitled to make your own call on what you've seen, every poster on the HTB is also afforded that privelige - and on the little circumstantial evidence we've seen so far, plus various external reports, punishments already administered by the AFL, comments made by persons directly involved and the general demeanor of the Essendon Football clubs senior officials and current coach, they've arrived at conclusions that can and will be different to yours. Tolerance goes both ways.

Just reading this again , and you still don't like a good argument .
I do . I remember that before I got nasty , I was called everything under the sun for having a different opinion of the general tide of public thinking.
Its nice having a mind of your own.
My opinion has never changed and I'd say some deliberate character destroying took place during that so called trial by bulldust. That's all good bye.

 

[jenny61_99]

Certainly sounds like suicide. When a young man dies and the police say there are no suspicious circumstances it usually means suicide.

Are we talking about the pole vaulter?