List Mgmt. The age of our list

[Dugg]

A lot has been said about our midfield over the past couple of years (especially the past week), and I'd just like to add some food for thought. I am not defending our midfield (because I agree that it is the root of our problem at the moment), but just thought I would point out a glaring difference between our team and the teams which are looking to compete for the flag this year, based on last years performances.

29 & Over (Based on their age as of their birthday this year)
West Coast: 4 - LeCras (29), Butler (29), Rosa (29) & Priddis (30)
Sydney: 7 - Grundy (29), Franklin (29), Goodes (36), McGlynn (30), McVeigh (30), Pyke (31) & Shaw (34)
Hawthorn: 8 - Burgoyne (33), Gibson (31), Hale (31), Hodge (31), Lake (34), Lewis (29), Mitchell (33) & Roughead (29)
Fremantle: 12 - Crowley (32), Dawson (30), Duffield (31), Griffin (30), Johnson (31), McPharlin (34), Mundy (30), Mzungu (30), Pavlich (34), Pearce (29), Sandilands (33) & Sylvia (30)
Port Adelaide: 5 - Cornes (33), Logan (30), Monfries (29), Schulz (30) & Westhoff (29)
Geelong: 10 - Bartel (32), Enright (34), Johnson (32), Kelly (32), Lonergan (31), Mackie (31), McIntosh (31), Rivers (31), Stokes (31) & Taylor (29)
North Melbourne: 10 - Dal Santo (32), Firrito (32), Gibson (29), Grima (30), Harvey (37), McMahon (29), Petrie (33), Thompson (29), Waite (33), Wells (31)

Plenty of people have banged on about how young our squad currently is, however until you actually put the names and numbers down on paper, you don't realise that we are probably 2 years away from another tilt at the flag. Have a look at each of the teams above and you'll soon notice that the players 30 and above are some of the best players in each team. Currently we have only Priddis at 30 and none above that. The players who currently would have likely filled these spots for us had they not left or been forced to retire would have been Waters, Glass, Embley, Lynch, Judd, Kerr etc...

Now in two years time, this is the list we could have over 29: 12 - LeCras (31), Butler (31), Rosa (31), Priddis (32), Brown (29), Ellis (30), Hill (29), Hurn (30), Kennedy (30), MacKenzie (29), Schofield (29), Wellingham (29).

Granted that some of these players may retire, be traded or simply dropped from the team (Predicting Butler, Priddis, Ellis & Hill) I would think we may have between 8-10 players aged 29 & over.

Add in the more maturely aged players below:
Bennell (27), Cripps (25), Darling (25), Gaff (25), Hutchings (25), Lycett (25), Masten (28), McGovern (25), Naitanui (27), Selwood (27), Sheppard (26), Shuey (27), Yeo (24)

Along with another 2 years of development into the young players in Newman (24), Duggan (21), Waterman (21), McInnes (24), Lamb (21), Nelson (21) & Cavka (21), I really think we are poised for a good run at the flag. Maybe all this doom and gloom is for nothing?

Thoughts?

 

[ziad]

Sadly brown may not get on the field as a regular with two reco on the same knee.

 

[WCErevival]

Will be a few retirements in that lot

 

[eaglesfan84]

I think it's more about the games of experience rather than age, our midfield should be considered experienced enough to be able to dominate a 2nd year midfield like the Bulldogs.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

I think that it's concerning that some of our most needed players such as Kennedy, Mackenzie, Hurn, and Lecras will all be around 30 in two years time. I think we're headed towards a reality where they'll be fading out of the team by the time we have a chance to rectify the obvious midfield deficiencies.

 

[Smotie]

Your post would be a good guesstimate if it wasn't for the fact that the midfielders we have are not going to improve from where they are. Over 100 games is a good indication of a players ability. It won't change because they get older.

The midfielders individually and collectively are no good. The whole dynamic needs to be change because they cant dominate the better teams, not even the lower teams as of Saturday.

 

[Abed]

I think that it's concerning that some of most needed players such as Kennedy, Mackenzie, Hurn, and Lecras will all be around 30 in two years time. I think we're headed towards a reality where they'll be fading out of the team by the time we have a chance to rectify the obvious midfield deficiencies.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Dugg]

Fair points herculez09 & Smote. What do you think the best solution to be?

Aim to poach some midfielders in the next two years?

Ultimately if we go for the full rebuild, players like Kennedy, MacKenzie, Hurn & Lecras may as well be traded out now as they will be too old by the time our midfield is redeveloped. Surely we need to look at a refresh rather than a full rebuild and use what we have to the best of our ability?

 

[I Am Bort]

It's clearly not a popular opinion, but I think its a fair point. Experience, size, physical conditioning, mental strength/maturity are all keys to winning a premiership and they come with age.

Though this team may never win a premiership, I'm sure they will get a chance to battle it out in finals in the in the coming years. Though I think a large part of an improvement for our finals chances is actually likely to come from these experienced top 8 teams going over a cliff and losing a generation of great 30-ish players due to age in a short period of time.

Half the battle is in the strength of our opponents, so I think it is also fair to say that they may also go through a weakening (if temporary) around the time our list is strengthening, and that will give us a boost.

In before people raging at me for being too positive - Midfield sucks, Priddis eats children.

 

[ZergMinion]

I think it's more about the games of experience rather than age, our midfield should be considered experienced enough to be able to dominate a 2nd year midfield like the Bulldogs.

It's round 1. Funny things happen sometimes in round 1. If Carlton give us a bath this week then all the doom and gloom will be justified

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

Fair points herculez09 & Smote. What do you think the best solution to be?

Aim to poach some midfielders in the next two years?

Ultimately if we go for the full rebuild, players like Kennedy, MacKenzie, Hurn & Lecras may as well be traded out now as they will be too old by the time our midfield is redeveloped. Surely we need to look at a refresh rather than a full rebuild and use what we have to the best of our ability?

Who can we realistically poach?
From Western Australia, Rance is the only player of note that is becoming a free agent and I'd rather not spend a large part of our cap on key defender when hopefully Mackenzie and Brown will come back from their knee recos okay.
Midfield wise - I'd love to see any number of the talented WA GC/GWS players come home but we'd have to give up something of worth for them.
Who do we have of worth that is expendable to trade those players for?
Nic Nat, Darling, McGovern, Lycett?
Three of those are WA boys and Lycett has just been re-signed.
So I'm really not sure what the solution is.

 

[RookiePick]

...Midfield sucks, Priddis eats children.

But he can only catch the slow ones so he's improving the speed of Eagle midfields for generations to come. Consummate team man our Pridda!

 

[Yamumluvsbigcox]

I think that it's concerning that some of our most needed players such as Kennedy, Mackenzie, Hurn, and Lecras will all be around 30 in two years time. I think we're headed towards a reality where they'll be fading out of the team by the time we have a chance to rectify the obvious midfield deficiencies.

Bit like freo with their ageing KPP and sandi . Trying to win a premiership before their bodies come to a screaming halt !

 

[Godfather32]

Bit like freo with their ageing KPP and sandi . Trying to win a premiership before their bodies come to a screaming halt !

Difference is they're actually in the picture, we're a long long way from playing in a GF

 

[Yamumluvsbigcox]

Difference is they're actually in the picture, we're a long long way from playing in a GF

We're they five years ago ?

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

We're they five years ago ?

Was 2010 the year they played a semi? My memory isn't great.

A lot has to go right for all of those players to make it another 5 years though.

 

[Johnno22]

Your post would be a good guesstimate if it wasn't for the fact that the midfielders we have are not going to improve from where they are. Over 100 games is a good indication of a players ability. It won't change because they get older.

The midfielders individually and collectively are no good. The whole dynamic needs to be change because they cant dominate the better teams, not even the lower teams as of Saturday.

Again you didn't read his post properly , so just your normal skim and rant response.

 

[Godfather32]

We're they five years ago ?

Made it to a semi-final

 

[Smotie]

Again you didn't read his post properly , so just your normal skim and rant response.

I read it. Settle Kettle. If you think the leftovers of who he said would retire are going to take us to a premiership you are sadly mistaken although I would love it to be true.

He mentioned Priddis etc as retiring which leaves us with Rosa, Gaff, Wellingham, Selwood, Masten and Shuey not including the kids. They are not going to take us to top 4 let alone a premiership.

IF Duggan, Sheed Lamb and Waterman come in and play out of their skin and develop into a formidable midfield group and add to it a couple draftees over the next 2 years then maybe we could be a top 8 contenders or even top 4 with our forward, ruck and defence. But that is pie in the sky and down to our development staff.

What would really be ideal (and a few innocents in here won't like this) is for us to bottom out to bottom 2 or 3 and get a look at a real top kid like we found in Judd at the time. Trade out someone like Masten for a second rounder(?) and if Selwood goes and we get a compensation pick in the second round we could snare a Fyfe if we get a look at 3 picks in the top 30?.

Time is against us to take advantage of the like of Kennedy, Lecras, Hurn, and Brown. So we might find ourselves in 2-3 three years fixing our midfield and then having to fix our forward and defensive line if our KP forwards and defenders don't come on.

Some radical surgery needs to be done to our list but I am not sure that this current coaching group want to do it. Simmo himself said to a source I spoke to last year that we are at least 3-4 years away from anything serious. I guess he is implying that the midfield group (given his comments lately) are going to be needing to be turned over.

If we snared an A grade mid that is from W.A. and is out of contract that could be tempted home we would get a boost from that but what would we have to give up? First round pick? Second and Masten?

List management is difficult and hitting the right ingredients of experience and youth are hard. The 2010-2013 drafts are killing us right now from a midfield perspective apart from Gaff. Concentration was given to rucks, forwards and defenders as I believe Worsfold held our midfield in high regard. We had just competed in a preliminary final in 2011 so he probably thought rightly that our midfield would improve from then to a GF.

I reckon we need to bottom out and go to the draft for a top 3 kid and develop them like we used to do. Cut the dross from our mids at the end of the year and throw the likes of Duggan, Sheed, Lamb, Waterman around Shuey, NN, Lycett, Wellingham and Gaff and see what develops. It is risky but we won't know until we try.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

I think it is more about who are AFL seasoned players.

Kennedy,Shuey, Priddis, Hurn, Lecras, Selwood, Masten, Rosa, Butler, Natanui, Gaff, Shepherd, Mcginnity, Cripps, Lycett, Brown, Wellingham and Yeo are all players who have been in the system for a substantial period now and no exactly all about AFL footy.

Those guys all played this weekend, there is no excuses like speed of the game or any surprises in a game that would catch any of these guys out. They all know what it's all about.
Age is just a number and I am sick to death of seasoned players being called kids.

The answer is not drafting, it is trading and we have basically been non existent at trade week for as long as I can remember. The problem now is that blokes Like Selwood and Masten have little trade value because we left it to long and now other clubs know there is no upside to them. Which means you have to end up trading your good players which we don't want to do.

There is lots wrong with our club, the management have been there to long and have no idea how to adapt, coaches come in but I think a strict way to follow things is handed down from the top.

We were once an admired club but now there is little at our club now or in the near future to be excited about. We have money I guess if that is important to people but at the end if the day that is all we have.
I always knew the day would come when the mob down the road became the big boys in town, we all knew that day would come. I didn't however realise just how far they would run pass us by in almost every single conceivable facet of football including management, coaching, trading, drafting etc etc.
We could change quickly if they want but someone has to come in clean out the crap and start again.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

I think it is more about who are AFL seasoned players.

Kennedy,Shuey, Priddis, Hurn, Lecras, Selwood, Masten, Rosa, Butler, Natanui, Gaff, Shepherd, Mcginnity, Cripps, Lycett, Brown, Wellingham and Yeo are all players who have been in the system for a substantial period now and no exactly all about AFL footy.

Those guys all played this weekend, there is no excuses like speed of the game or any surprises in a game that would catch any of these guys out. They all know what it's all about.
Age is just a number and I am sick to death of seasoned players being called kids.

The answer is not drafting, it is trading and we have basically been non existent at trade week for as long as I can remember. The problem now is that blokes Like Selwood and Masten have little trade value because we left it to long and now other clubs know there is no upside to them. Which means you have to end up trading your good players which we don't want to do.

There is lots wrong with our club, the management have been there to long and have no idea how to adapt, coaches come in but I think a strict way to follow things is handed down from the top.

We were once an admired club but now there is little at our club now or in the near future to be excited about. We have money I guess if that is important to people but at the end if the day that is all we have.
I always knew the day would come when the mob down the road became the big boys in town, we all knew that day would come. I didn't however realise just how far they would run pass us by in almost every single conceivable facet of football including management, coaching, trading, drafting etc etc.
We could change quickly if they want but someone has to come in clean out the crap and start again.

I tend to agree.

The year that Selwood won our b&f (2012?), I was hoping that we'd trade him out for something of value because he always seemed to be limited in what he would ever be.

Unfortunately, that's not how AFL clubs operate, they don't trade out players wiith perceived value voluntarily.

Now we're stuck with the unenviable task of managing Masten, Selwood, Priddis and potentially Wellingham if he doesn't show any more intent + any of our other midfielders who don't look as if they'll progress.

The latter part of your post, about football management etc. Has that been brought about due to West Coast just losing the cut-throat aggression that is needed in the industry and becoming content being financially successful?

I just can't fathom how a team can become so stagnant off the field.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

I tend to agree.

The year that Selwood won our b&f (2012?), I was hoping that we'd trade him out for something of value because he always seemed to be limited in what he would ever be.

Unfortunately, that's not how AFL clubs operate, they don't trade out players wiith perceived value voluntarily.

Now we're stuck with the unenviable task of managing Masten, Selwood, Priddis and potentially Wellingham if he doesn't show any more intent + any of our other midfielders who don't look as if they'll progress.

The latter part of your post, about football management etc. Has that been brought about due to West Coast just losing the cut-throat aggression that is needed in the industry and becoming content being financially successful?

I just can't fathom how a team can become so stagnant off the field.

I think money and perception is more important to the club off field than anything else and that is sad. But stagnant is the perfect word to describe us.
I feel a bit for Simmo as I am not sure he has complete control over footy in the club.

 

[Cuzdup]

What we need is guns now!

Historically our players have always started a downward slide by the time they hit 30 and very few have continued to excel into their 30s, they basically play as a shadow of their former glory.

Just off the top of my head Dwayne Lamb is the only 30 year old thats ever been apart of a premiership winning squad of ours who was 31 in 1992. Im not saying Lamby is the only 1 but we've had very few.

unfortunately Priddis will play deep into he's 30s

 

[Godfather32]

Historically our players have always started a downward slide by the time they hit 30 and very few have continued to excel into their 30s, they basically play as a shadow of their former glory.

Just off the top of my head Dwayne Lamb is the only 30 year old thats ever been apart of a premiership winning squad of ours who was 31 in 1992. Im not saying Lamby is the only 1 but we've had very few.

unfortunately Priddis will play deep into he's 30s

And won't be part of a premiership winning squad if he does :/

 

[Eastern Rangers]

Those players over 30 aren't necessarily determinative of why those sides are performing better. A part of it perhaps, for some players it will ring true. But depth of quality, team performance, quality injection of youth with the right games that improve sides instantly. All those matter and much more.

Masten, Selwood and Wellingham turning 29/30 doesn't mean anything. They'll perform for the most part just as they have, if not worse. Good players will play on longer than poor players should injuries permit, but they need to actually be good.

The relevant aspect is our players 25 and under, they can be with us for a long time still and where are primary efforts should be. That's not to say players over a certain age aren't essential but it's their quality that is needed not their maturity, the longer you preserve quality the better your list. The longer you preserve mediocrity and the worse your list. Names like LeCras, Kennedy, Mackenzie, Hurn that's who we want to keep around.

I think we need more than two years and really feel for those I mentioned above.


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