Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[royals1922]

So another player of interest. Dave McGrath according to AFL games records played 1 game in 1900 in round 14 for Fitzroy against SKilda.

The st Kilda part is the giveaway as st Kilda was rank at that time and in the Geelong game in round 13, Fitzroy lost 5 or 6 players from recollection through injury.

Consequently given the opponent and the makeshift nature of the team , the St Kilda game is lightly reported on Trove and from recollection Mcgraths name does not even get a mention.

A McGrath did play for Prahran from recollection but I didn't get an initial from the reports.

This sounds like one of those infrequent games where a team cops a slew of injuries promotes a few kids, most of whom do not inspire.

According to AFL records he plays no further games.

A Dave McGrath from recollection plays in the 20s and, perhaps, there is a connection there.

 

[35Daicos]

So another player of interest. Dave McGrath according to AFL games records played 1 game in 1900 in round 14 for Fitzroy against SKilda.

The st Kilda part is the giveaway as st Kilda was rank at that time and in the Geelong game in round 13, Fitzroy lost 5 or 6 players from recollection through injury.

Consequently given the opponent and the makeshift nature of the team , the St Kilda game is lightly reported on Trove and from recollection Mcgraths name does not even get a mention.

A McGrath did play for Prahran from recollection but I didn't get an initial from the reports.

This sounds like one of those infrequent games where a team cops a slew of injuries promotes a few kids, most of whom do not inspire.

According to AFL records he plays no further games.

A Dave McGrath from recollection plays in the 20s and, perhaps, there is a connection there.

Dave C McGrath played 1 game for Fitzroy in 1900. Dave G McGrath played 10 games for Fitzroy in 1920 (with 6 goals). The 'Encyclopedia' has him playing 16 games for 8 goals.

I don't know when the next edition of that book is set to be released but they do have a few things they need to tidy up. The 1900 McGrath made his debut aged 27. I can't see anything that says they were related, but there must be some chance.

 

[royals1922]

Dave C McGrath played 1 game for Fitzroy in 1900. Dave G McGrath played 10 games for Fitzroy in 1920 (with 6 goals). The 'Encyclopedia' has him playing 16 games for 8 goals.

I don't know when the next edition of that book is set to be released but they do have a few things they need to tidy up. The 1900 McGrath made his debut aged 27. I can't see anything that says they were related, but there must be some chance.

I have expressed some scepticism about previous records about Fitzroy. Is there any verification that he played, other than the Encyclopedia.

 

[35Daicos]

I have expressed some scepticism about previous records about Fitzroy. Is there any verification that he played, other than the Encyclopedia.

A well founded scepticism, I'd say! He's in the pages from the old AFL Historical Statistics site as having played that one game in 1900, I've only had a brief look on Trove (couple of papers) but seen no mention of his name, even though a heap of missing players are named, as are a few of the replacements.

 

[the croucher]

The birth & death dates given for Dave McGrath (listed as Fitzroy - 1900) tie in with him being a prominent politician later in life. The ADB article here mentions his football days with South Ballarat in the 1890s.
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/mcgrath-david-charles-7361

Gives another angle to pursue anyway.

 

[35Daicos]

The birth & death dates given for Dave McGrath (listed as Fitzroy - 1900) tie in with him being a prominent politician later in life. The ADB article here mentions his football days with South Ballarat in the 1890s.
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/mcgrath-david-charles-7361

Gives another angle to pursue anyway.

The Football Record said the Dave McGrath who debuted in 1920 was from Ballarat, which perhaps makes it more likely the two were related.

 

[royals1922]

Well about McGrath ,I've seen no report which says he even played in a game for Fitzroy in 1900.

I'm assuming the Herald will name him as a change prior to the game or omission after the game but, that is only an assumption.

 

[royals1922]

Fitzroy player again.

Jim Tulloch apparently plays round 1 of 1898 ( and no other game)

He's listed as having been recruited from Pembroke.

Indeed the Australasian of 14 May 1898 confirms this

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article138666616

And is probably the source of the entry for the Wikipedia page.

Except that the Age of 22 August 1898 lists a Tulloch who is playing for Pembroke as P Tulloch not J Tulloch

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article191496607

Tulloch appears to have been junior cricketer for Pembroke

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article108482126

But it is not stated that there were 2 of them.

 

[royals1922]

Another possible Fitzroy player

Sonny Douglas is listed as having played 2 games for Fitzroy 1905.

He was a forward and is listed as playing the Geelong and St Kilda game in rounds 2 and 3 in May 1905.

The AFL games record has him being born on 8 February 1884 and don't list a date of death ( and usually do) while Wikipedia has him being born on 8 February 1884 and dying on 20 December 1884 and coming from Albert Park.

Now there is a strong chance "Sonny" was not not his given name, a fact called into doubt by this report from the Sydney Morning Herald of 26 June 1905 about an exhibition game between South Melbourne and Fitzroy

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article14687648

This report gives his name as T Douglas not Sonny r S.

Incidentally the SMH report has H Milne as B ( presumably Bert) and R Bailes( and not B Bailes) as well as well as W (not Jack ) Holt and W (presumably william ) Walker.

The South list also has J ( not P) Abercrombie, W Dolphin and W holt W Scott, W Strang W Mc Ghee ( all presumably Bill), an A Percy ( who does not play in 1905 but Artie Percy plays 2 games for SM in 1904 ) R (not Dick ) Casey, H (presumably Herbert and not Bert) Howson, A ( presumably Albert and not Bert) Sharp.

I reckon if you checked all the South names and the Fitzroy names there would be a few revisions of names including Sharpe, who is still known as Bert in all records.

It is indeed very rare that one finds a complete list with initials at this time and the initials are solid.

These initials are confirmed by the SMH of 24 June 1905


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article14695578

A further report of the Wagga Wagga express of 22 June 1905 give Jim's initials as J S Sharp


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article145188661

More Fitzroy follies
But I digress as we have T Douglas now instead of Sonny...... maybe.....

Douglas also plays in another exhibition game in Sydney against a Sydney side

cf SMH of 29 June 1905.


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article14695117

Interestingly most of the initials are not replicated but has S Davidson instead of Sam Davison ( Davison apparently plays 2 games for Fitzroy in this year)

Further the team of Albert Park as Douglas' first team is not replicated by this article of 17 April 1905 of the Age which lists new players


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article192222803

which lists Douglas as coming from Caulfied college

 

[35Daicos]

Another possible Fitzroy player

Sonny Douglas is listed as having played 2 games for Fitzroy 1905.

He was a forward and is listed as playing the Geelong and St Kilda game in rounds 2 and 3 in May 1905.

The AFL games record has him being born on 8 February 1884 and don't list a date of death ( and usually do) while Wikipedia has him being born on 8 February 1884 and dying on 20 December 1884 and coming from Albert Park.

Now there is a strong chance "Sonny" was not not his given name, a fact called into doubt by this report from the Sydney Morning Herald of 26 June 1905 about an exhibition game between South Melbourne and Fitzroy

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article14687648

This report gives his name as T Douglas not Sonny r S.

Incidentally the SMH report has H Milne as B ( presumably Bert) and R Bailes( and not B Bailes) as well as well as W (not Jack ) Holt and W (presumably william ) Walker.

The South list also has J ( not P) Abercrombie, W Dolphin and W holt W Scott, W Strang W Mc Ghee ( all presumably Bill), an A Percy ( who does not play in 1905 but Artie Percy plays 2 games for SM in 1904 ) R (not Dick ) Casey, H (presumably Herbert and not Bert) Howson, A ( presumably Albert and not Bert) Sharp.

I reckon if you checked all the South names and the Fitzroy names there would be a few revisions of names including Sharpe, who is still known as Bert in all records.

It is indeed very rare that one finds a complete list with initials at this time and the initials are solid.

These initials are confirmed by the SMH of 24 June 1905


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article14695578

A further report of the Wagga Wagga express of 22 June 1905 give Jim's initials as J S Sharp


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article145188661

More Fitzroy follies
But I digress as we have T Douglas now instead of Sonny...... maybe.....

Douglas also plays in another exhibition game in Sydney against a Sydney side

cf SMH of 29 June 1905.


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article14695117

Interestingly most of the initials are not replicated but has S Davidson instead of Sam Davison ( Davison apparently plays 2 games for Fitzroy in this year)

Further the team of Albert Park as Douglas' first team is not replicated by this article of 17 April 1905 of the Age which lists new players


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article192222803

which lists Douglas as coming from Caulfied college

T.A. E. 'SONNY' DOUGLAS (From Albert Park) according to the 'Encyclopedia'.

 

[royals1922]

Percy Abercrombie of South Melbourne definitely used the name John Abercrombie so that confirms the SMH report.

See the permits of the Argus of 14 June 1906


http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10041732

This also confirms that Jimmy Luff of Fitzroy was actually James Luff of Richmond who possibly was related to Bill Luff or might , in fact , ie a brother of Bill Luff.

Also there is a permit for a JF or JP Fagan to Northcote. Football stats only has him Jim Fagan and he has no wiki page. While his Australian Football page does not list his 2nd name when the permit says he had one. Question - have they got the wrong Fagan. Is there a James P or James F Fagan that should be the player.

One of the funniest names in VFL history , Dick Bliss of South Melbourne has his permit there from boulder being Richard Bliss.

 

[royals1922]

T.A. E. 'SONNY' DOUGLAS (From Albert Park) according to the 'Encyclopedia'.

So what does T A stand for then.....

 

[35Daicos]

So what does T A stand for then.....

No idea at this stage. I checked the Death Notices from The Age for the next week or so after he died (Dec. 1964) but his name wasn't there.

 

[royals1922]

No idea at this stage. I checked the Death Notices from The Age for the next week or so after he died (Dec. 1964) but his name wasn't there.

I reckon there may be some slack work somewhere as we have seen so far.

 

[royals1922]

Looking closely, I'm getting the feeling that a lot of records from that time do not stand close scrutiny

The Bert Sharpe case is one in point. Bert was never a given name in those days, if it even now. The name was properly Herbert or Albert with Herbert being shortened to Herb or Bert and Albert to Alby or Bert.

Yet VFL records have his full name as Bert.

A small but basic example that affects dates of birth, death and age on debut .

 

[rbartlett]

Dick Condon did not coach Richmond in Rd 17 or 18 1909.
He had been dispensed with on August 24th, as a player and coach, (having earlier resigned the captaincy on June 3)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198486076
The head trainer for Richmond , Charlie Taylor was appointed the caretaker coach for the remaining two matches.

 

[35Daicos]

Looking closely, I'm getting the feeling that a lot of records from that time do not stand close scrutiny

The Bert Sharpe case is one in point. Bert was never a given name in those days, if it even now. The name was properly Herbert or Albert with Herbert being shortened to Herb or Bert and Albert to Alby or Bert.

Yet VFL records have his full name as Bert.

A small but basic example that affects dates of birth, death and age on debut .

The 'Encyclopedia' has ALBERT E. 'BERT' SHARPE (from Royal Park Crescent). It has him playing 99 games for Fitzroy, 17 for South Melbourne, which matches what AFL Tables shows. The AFL Historical Statistics website has/had 100 games for Fitzroy.

I'm pretty sure I posted something about him in Football Statistics years ago, there was 'confusion' as to whether or not he had played in the 1899 Grand Final/Premiership team (he didn't, Pat Descrimes did), and it seems a change in the official records was made there in recent times.

 

[rbartlett]

This also confirms that Jimmy Luff of Fitzroy was actually James Luff of Richmond who possibly was related to Bill Luff or might , in fact , ie a brother of Bill Luff.

They were brothers.
James Luff played 1 game for Richmond in VFA in 1905.
Bill Luff also was playing for Richmond in the season.
http://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=VFA+Players

 

[royals1922]

The 'Encyclopedia' has ALBERT E. 'BERT' SHARPE (from Royal Park Crescent). It has him playing 99 games for Fitzroy, 17 for South Melbourne, which matches what AFL Tables shows. The AFL Historical Statistics website has/had 100 games for Fitzroy.

I'm pretty sure I posted something about him in Football Statistics years ago, there was 'confusion' as to whether or not he had played in the 1899 Grand Final/Premiership team (he didn't, Pat Descrimes did), and it seems a change in the official records was made there in recent times.

Report from the SMH seems to be on the money in relation to initials. Now T Douglas or TA needs to be sought.

 

[35Daicos]

Report from the SMH seems to be on the money in relation to initials. Now T Douglas or TA needs to be sought.

T. 'Sonny' Douglas gets a mention in The Australasian for his debut game:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/11431822

young Douglas, the son of a sterling footballer of the eighties, P. Douglas, of old West Melbourne fame, comported himself most promisingly forward

P. Douglas (not to be confused with the very well regarded Percy Douglass who played for Geelong at the same time) was captain of West Melbourne according to The Footballer 1879.

I don't remember when numbers were first said to have been worn on guernseys, but they were on show in this exhibition game.

The match report in The Argus says pretty much the same thing about young Douglas and his father:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9892811
I wonder why he only played two games, given that his debut was said to be so promising.

This page calls him Sam Douglas, almost certainly a mistake!:- http://www.lions.com.au/Club/history/fitzroy-lions-history/all-time-playing-list/a---f

There's no doubt the A. Sharp named at CHF in the South Melbourne team for the 1905 game in Sydney would be Bert (Albert) Sharpe, who had once been a Fitzroy player.

 

[the croucher]

So what does T A stand for then.....

Thomas Alfred Edgar Douglas (son of Patrick and Ann) b 1884

https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/indexsearch.doj?viewSequence=200&language=en&trxId=IDX&commandAction_displayDetailsAction=C621C41690D648526FCC45A1C1C2D364

Thank goodness the Vic Public Record Office now allows free viewing of basic info on the birth, marriage & death indexes.

By the way, Patrick Douglas was captain of West Melbourne team.
See last "general topics" item near bottom of column 5 being report on annual meeting of West Melb FC:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/257033

 

[35Daicos]

Thomas Alfred Edgar Douglas (son of Patrick and Ann) b 1884

https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/indexsearch.doj?viewSequence=200&language=en&trxId=IDX&commandAction_displayDetailsAction=C621C41690D648526FCC45A1C1C2D364

Thank goodness the Vic Public Record Office now allows free viewing of basic info on the birth, marriage & death indexes.

By the way, Patrick Douglas was captain of West Melbourne team.
See last "general topics" item near bottom of column 5 being report on annual meeting of West Melb FC:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/page/257033

I posted a bit about 'Sonny' Douglas' father in the post above yours. The BDM link you posted isn't working at the moment, sadly.

 

[royals1922]

The other team where reports are more patchier than others for the early years are St Kilda whose early couple of seasons were disappointing to say the least.

 

[the croucher]

The Football Record said the Dave McGrath who debuted in 1920 was from Ballarat, which perhaps makes it more likely the two were related.

David Charles McGrath was elected to House of Reps for seat of Ballarat on 10 July 1920
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4596632

This set of reports on matches played on 10 July comments on McGrath (Fitzroy) being away at Ballarat
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/140261848

and this article comments on DG McGrath being a son of DC McGrath (MHR for Ballarat)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/101011442

confirmed then that DC & DG are father and son
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/b...etailsAction=04600E9EC12E62C8CDFFD96602A13E7E

 

[the croucher]

I posted a bit about 'Sonny' Douglas' father in the post above yours. The BDM link you posted isn't working at the moment, sadly.

Oh bother.

Try this then
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/b...etailsAction=C621C41690D648526FCC45A1C1C2D364