2016 Non-Crows AFL Discussion - Cont. in Part 2 (link in OP)

[Jeffcrowe]

A lot of people have expressed this sentiment, I really don't understand it.

Sure they are going to be ordinary this year but the 12 players are all available for 2017, fresh injury free ready to go. 1 or 2 may retire but most of them will rejoin Essendon - they are well and truly "welded on", if they were going to flip it would have happened already.

They also will have pick 1 and 19 in next years draft plus the 2 top 10 picks they had this year. Their one year of draft sanctions is long gone.

Players have already gone to them in the last few years with the black cloud overhead, now it is done and dusted they will have no trouble attracting players.

How exactly will they be worse than Carlton??

They are already on their way there , look at how they went last year , this will get worse ... The football dept spending will suffer and the more years they miss the 8 the more difficult to attract players . Sure they can strengthen through the draft but that will be an 8 year rebuild

 

[1970crow]

I'm glad to see Caro vindicated after some of the vitriol thrown in her direction.

You're not correct about that at all. She was firmly behind the players and openly rejoiced when the AFL tribunal found them not guilty. Her view was the same as displayed by Gil on 360 last night which is at odds with what we've heard from CAS.

 

[rocket18]

They are already on their way there , look at how they went last year , this will get worse ... The football dept spending will suffer and the more years they miss the 8 the more difficult to attract players . Sure they can strengthen through the draft but that will be an 8 year rebuild

Not that I feel sorry for them but it must have been very difficult to concentrate and focus this year, afl - yep all ok and then WADA appeals, that would have been very deflating.

They will continue to be one of the biggest spenders in the footy department and they have Woosha as coach. They are one of the biggest clubs in the AFL, attracting players will not be a problem.

I guess time will tell, I'm not suggesting they will finish top 4 but I don't think they will do a Carlton and win 3 spoons in 4 years.

 

[Redleg Crow]

Could fast track a few careers and make those players stronger than what they would have been , could also end just as many careers prematurely

Exactly - the benefits are pretty uncertain.

 

[Redleg Crow]

Caro asks the very correct question that goes to the heart of it all:

"The still-unsolved mystery of why no Essendon footballer in 2012 confided to anyone outside the club about the strange experimental treatment they were enduring appears to have inflicted more damage than they could have known at the time."

As much as anyone the AFLPA need to have a fricken hard look at themselves. They are not really a union. Were anyone at work asked to do something you thought a bit dangerous, you'd be on the phone to your union asking for advice on your rights.

 

[1970crow]

I'm not saying I have sympathy for the players but I appreciate having played footy at two different clubs the difficulty in challenging authority and the culture.

What they should have done is before taking the injections reported this to the AFL privately.

Or spoken to their manager. I had struggled to understand how this hadn't happened amongst such a large group of players. But had still figured the players to have been duped by the likes of Dank. It now seems reasonably clear why this didn't happen.

 

[NikkiNoo]

The Tribunal had to determine exactly which individuals took the drug and which ones didn't without any doubt, they were never asked to look into whether or not it was given to the group. The tribunal was about punishment to individual players, they were asked "did this player take an illegal substance?" for every player on the essendon list individually. They couldn't seperate the innocent from the guilty so everyone was found not guilty.

They never asked that at all. Therefore the players were not found not guilty by the AFL Tribunal. It was just never considered.

They wanted a direct chain of evidence to prove that TB-4 was at Essendon before they even considered if it was given to the players. They examined each link of the chain separately. As there might have been other explanations, they said that the chain broke down, so they couldn't conclusively prove that TB-4 was at Essendon, so they couldn't then consider if the players had received something that might not have been there. The WADA case instead relied on strands in a cable as their description. While one strand might go away, the cable still exists. So the AFL Tribunal looked at each piece of evidence individually, CAS looked at the totality in context, which is more common in a circumstantial evidence case.

This explains it brilliantly, as well as other aspects of the legal decision. Natalie has been brilliant from the start of this saga when the courts became involved - http://sociallitigator.com/2016/01/12/essendon-saga-13-legal-things-from-cas-judgment-day/

 

[Jeffcrowe]

Caro asks the very correct question that goes to the heart of it all:

"The still-unsolved mystery of why no Essendon footballer in 2012 confided to anyone outside the club about the strange experimental treatment they were enduring appears to have inflicted more damage than they could have known at the time."

As much as anyone the AFLPA need to have a fricken hard look at themselves. They are not really a union. Were anyone at work asked to do something you thought a bit dangerous, you'd be on the phone to your union asking for advice on your rights.

Really good point , the AFLPA may need some mirror time just like the Essendon admin and AFL

They obviously aren't providing key components of their charter ( no pun intended)

Marsh would be as stubborn as The best of them no doubt

 

[NikkiNoo]

Only the end of it but on the Today show they said Hird has a speaking engagement charging $35 to hear his side on what happened.

I don't know if this was prearranged but it's off.

Even more off is that it is being offered by 'The Ethics Centre'. He will be interviewed by Tracey Holmes, so yeah, will be a fluff piece and for him to sling mud at ASADA and now CAS while not understanding that he is now completely irrelevant and small fry.

 

[NikkiNoo]

I have strong opinions relating to my ill feelings towards the AFL, ASADA Chief Ben McDevitt, ASADA, WADA, the Court of Arbitration for Sport, the AFL Tribunal, Dank, Hird, Essendon board.

I think I'll keep them to myself since I know what people are like here, but I will say this. The whole affair was handled badly and these WADA and ASADA muppets are desperately trying to pat each other on the back, declare this is a great moment in the fight for justice against drugs in sport and take enjoyment out of penalizing 34 players with a penalty similar to drug cheats who inject steroids for athletic competition like the Olympics by using circumstantial evidence. Justice was not done, what happened yesterday was vengeance.

They've left a massive stain on the reputation of Australian Rules Football and i bet they were all clinking champagne glasses together and laughing at dinner last night.

They should be pleased with the outcome. It is what is needed for sport to be clean. It doesn't matter if it is the local netball game, or a fight for an olympic medal. It is sport. No one should get away with cheating. Get your hands on Ben McDevitt's press conference yesterday. He stated quite clearly that he took no joy from the outcome in respect to the players, but he was pleased on behalf of those who want a clean sport.

Sorry but you have no understanding of law. All evidence is circumstantial. Law and Order or CSI should not be your understanding of how evidence works. Justice was most definitely done, by some incredibly learned lawyers.

The massive stain on the reputation of AFL was done by Essendon, their players, the AFL and now the AFLPA. Those are the ones responsible.

 

[Bovo]

Of course it wasn't !!! Not suggesting it was , but don't worry Essendon will be punished .... They will be a basket case for many years

And yes the AFL was doing its usual micro management of such issues and not such a v good job of it ...., no doubt without all the facts they were timid and concerned re vilifying certain culprits and potential law suits , this is where they should have left it to the ' experts' like ASADA and kept things independent

My point is Essendon will not get off lightly now so don't worry about that , it will take a full generation until they are a force again if at all

No denying that, but the aftermath has nothing to do with the AFL. Essendon drove that truck and at many stages along the way could have stopped. The carnage left behind is Essendon. That has absolutely nothing to do with an AFL punishment. That is a seperate thing. The AFL should still be involved. No one wants the club to go under however what they did.....wow. I have been reading the CAS transcript.....my mind boggles.

 

[rezagun]

If essendon end up with the first or second pick in the draft it will be an absolute joke. In recent years they have off loaded disgruntled tainted players for high draft picks.
From memory they recieved
Ports 2015 first and second picks for ryder
St kildas pick 5 for carlisle
Melbournes ?? For melksham
Western bulldogs ?? For crameri
Ports ?? For monfries
The Vfl needs to ban them from this years first rd minimum. They have already been let off lightly.

 

[1970crow]

Yep but its different in a one-off event - much more clear cut. See my post above - this is multiple votes over many games - so I'm not sure you can assume that the runner up in this case is the legitimate recipient.

He's the most legitimate. Otherwise just remove all Essendon games from the count. Then there's not s single tainted vote. 17 teams all above board playing against each other.

 

[adelaidecrows]

I have strong opinions relating to my ill feelings towards the AFL, ASADA Chief Ben McDevitt, ASADA, WADA, the Court of Arbitration for Sport, the AFL Tribunal, Dank, Hird, Essendon board.

I think I'll keep them to myself since I know what people are like here, but I will say this. The whole affair was handled badly and these WADA and ASADA muppets are desperately trying to pat each other on the back, declare this is a great moment in the fight for justice against drugs in sport and take enjoyment out of penalizing 34 players with a penalty similar to drug cheats who inject steroids for athletic competition like the Olympics by using circumstantial evidence. Justice was not done, what happened yesterday was vengeance.

They've left a massive stain on the reputation of Australian Rules Football and i bet they were all clinking champagne glasses together and laughing at dinner last night.

Don't take this the wrong way but you need to understand what you are talking about before you do it!

I understand you are frustrated as a supporter but what you need to acknowledge is that wilful ignorance as a plea to escape punishment is extremely dangerous. It will create a 'don't ask, don't tell' culture at clubs where the players can be administered with anything by anyone and as long as they don't know about what it is, they can claim to be lead up the garden path and protected. Make no mistake, the players are drug cheats and the rules they were banned under were in the WADA code long before the Essendon saga came along. The players were educated to not make the mistakes they did but they still did them. Does a police officer let you off speeding 90km in a 60kmph zone because you were ignorant to your speedo?

Your last points about justice and vengeance are just immature whaling! You aren't Paul Marsh by any chance?

 

[Rotayjay]

How long before an ex player comes out & reveals everything that went on back then in 2012 under the watchful eyes of the Essendon coaching/medical staff.

Without a shadow of a doubt, one of these days a player or players will give a 'tell-all' (highly paid) interview on 60 Minutes. It's the routine.

 

[Redleg Crow]

Really good point , the AFLPA may need some mirror time just like the Essendon admin and AFL

They obviously aren't providing key components of their charter ( no pun intended)

Marsh would be as stubborn as The best of them no doubt

Yep - his presser yesterday was full delusion - players did nothing wrong blah blah. Now sure his job is to defend the players but it would also have been nice to acknowledge that the decision was a big wake up call to all players that they can't just rely on the club - Andrew Bogut's tweet is perfectly on point here:

The AFLPA should be there for the players for more than just trying to get them a bigger share of the TV rights money. Clearly they are not.

 

[lincsPJ]

The Vfl needs to ban them from this years first rd minimum. They have already been let off lightly.

Not when puppet gillon said that "rebuilding essendon is the afl's priority"
The new Samsung on the wall almost copped something straight through it last night whilst watching 360.

 

[Cap]

I'm not sure how anyone can be critical of WADA

they just cleaned up a mess the VFL was trying to hide.

what saddens me is that heads won't role at AFL house and that a strucutural change away from looking after the Big 4 won't change.

 

[Draft Bored]

This is brilliant post that should be on the main board. Says it all.

Cheers, done.

Sack Gil avatars anyone?

 

[Jeffcrowe]

Yep - his presser yesterday was full delusion - players did nothing wrong blah blah. Now sure his job is to defend the players but it would also have been nice to acknowledge that the decision was a big wake up call to all players that they can't just rely on the club - Andrew Bogut's tweet is perfectly on point here:

The AFLPA should be there for the players for more than just trying to get them a bigger share of the TV rights money. Clearly they are not.

i agree completely
Another body needing an overhaul

Ah in each case it all comes down to greed
these days

Brilliant by bogut !! One of the Essendon supporters that gets it ( although many are starting to realise now )

 

[GROTTO]

If essendon end up with the first or second pick in the draft it will be an absolute joke. In recent years they have off loaded disgruntled tainted players for high draft picks.
From memory they recieved
Ports 2015 first and second picks for ryder
St kildas pick 5 for carlisle
Melbournes ?? For melksham
Western bulldogs ?? For crameri
Ports ?? For monfries
The Vfl needs to ban them from this years first rd minimum. They have already been let off lightly.

Gillon on AFL360 basically said that they will get to keep their draft picks this year. Given the likely "has beens" that will be playing for them this year the spoon is theirs for the taking which means plenty of presents ie No 1 draft pick and given this year the draft supposed to be one of the best in years they will be in a brilliant position in a few years time.

The irony of their systematic drug cheating and getting caught is that it will lead to a flag if they recruit well this year and next.

 

[Bovo]

Don't take this the wrong way but you need to understand what you are talking about before you do it!

I understand you are frustrated as a supporter but what you need to acknowledge is that wilful ignorance as a plea to escape punishment is extremely dangerous. It will create a 'don't ask, don't tell' culture at clubs where the players can be administered with anything by anyone and as long as they don't know about what it is, they can claim to be lead up the garden path and protected. Make no mistake, the players are drug cheats and the rules they were banned under were in the WADA code long before the Essendon saga came along. The players were educated to not make the mistakes they did but they still did them. Does a police officer let you off speeding 90km in a 60kmph zone because you were ignorant to your speedo?

Your last points about justice and vengeance are just immature whaling! You aren't Paul Marsh by any chance?

Paul Marsh should keep his mouth shut. I understand that he needs to speak on behalf of the players....but he is in a position where he has to defend the players. Based on that a simple "Our thoughts are with the players at this time and we will provide them as much support we can based on the rulings." Done!

The "players are victims" crap is damaging the players association credibility if all they ever do is see no evil and hear no evil.

 

[1970crow]

Apparently Stuart O'Grady only inhaled once and once only.

A mate was a mate of O'Grady in the early days and caught up with him periodically throughout his career.

 

[footy4ever]

Warning flags should be going up around Jasper Pittard. There's no way known you can play like he does and not be on some form of narcotic.

I actually LOL'd because I was only just recently having a chat to a Port mate and said Jasper must be on some kind of hallucinogen the way he takes off like Benny Hill chasing a rabbit.

 

[6BTS]

Don't take this the wrong way but you need to understand what you are talking about before you do it!

I understand you are frustrated as a supporter but what you need to acknowledge is that wilful ignorance as a plea to escape punishment is extremely dangerous. It will create a 'don't ask, don't tell' culture at clubs where the players can be administered with anything by anyone and as long as they don't know about what it is, they can claim to be lead up the garden path and protected. Make no mistake, the players are drug cheats and the rules they were banned under were in the WADA code long before the Essendon saga came along. The players were educated to not make the mistakes they did but they still did them. Does a police officer let you off speeding 90km in a 60kmph zone because you were ignorant to your speedo?

Your last points about justice and vengeance are just immature whaling! You aren't Paul Marsh by any chance?

Well, I could respond, but I don't debate people who jump at the chance to take cheap shots at me.