The big 4 clubs and the AFL's future

[Bunk Moreland]

Speak for yourself OP. We'll be OK, thanks.

 

[VineyIsLORD]

First things first - this is not the 1980s, and so the Big Four are Collingwood, Hawthorn, West Coast and Adelaide. If a "big" team starts losing, it starts falling back to the pack in terms of supporter base, and so they are no longer the biggest fish in the pond. Back fifty years ago you would have said that Melbourne was a massive club, and that one-flag rabble from Hawthorn was a side for no-hopers. Things change.

Clubs don't carry the competition, the game carries the competition. Kids don't fall in love with footy because they fall in love with Collingwood, they fall in love with footy and they pick a team. If a "small" team starts doing well, they grow their fanbase and become more stable... and isn't that want we want for the competition?

Fans of certain clubs - principally StKilda, Melbourne, Fitzroy, Footscray - came to expect that they'd never see a flag, and could book holidays in September with depressing regularity. Not any more, suckers - and that means that clubs like Carlton, Collingwood, Essendon and Richmond are now copping what it feels like to be in the lower half of the ladder for longer than a season. Get used to it - most of the rest of us, already have.

Good post. I see it as this in Victoria:

Powerhouse 2: Geelong, Hawks

Big four: the four worst victorian teams on the ladder

Working class four: saints, dees, roos, dogs

 

[greatwhiteshark]

The fact that these types of threads are accepted as having any relevance just shows how the AFL is really the VFL still. I have not met a soul that cares what sides are top and who are bottom.
The fans don't give a dam about all this. Only supporters of those clubs like to feel they are more important because of past history.
Those 4 clubs are no longer any more important to the league than anyone else.
Move on from the past

 

[kirbatron]

With Carlton, Collingwood. Essendon and Richmond entrenched in the bottom third of the ladder, there should be real concerns for the future of the code.

LOL

 

[Tedeski]

With Carlton, Collingwood. Essendon and Richmond entrenched in the bottom third of the ladder, there should be real concerns for the future of the code.
Carlton and Essendon are there because of penalties for cheating, and it could be argued that they deserve it. Collingwood and Richmond are there because of their own decisions to some extent. For the AFL, the concern has to be that these four teams carry the bulk of the rusted on supporters of the code, and their extended occupancy of the lower reaches must have severe effects on revenue and general support for football.
The expansion clubs are the problem, because they have little support, and what they have is ephemeral. OK when they are successful, but non existant when they are not.
The AFL has looked to recruiting as the solution. The draft was introduced to remedy the problems of power clubs having access to the best talent through their financial strength, minising the chances of success for the others. To expand, the draft was compromised for years to give the new clubs a chance. The former power clubs have been forced down by lack of talent when they chose, and smetimes poor or unlucky choices with what they did get.
Now, the draft is further compromised by acadamies and father son rules. Future trading of draft picks is fraught too. If there is going to be a draft, and it seems necessary to reduce the effects of wealth, then it should be exactly what teh simplest version would suggest. A selection based on reverse ladder position with rigorous prevention of cheating. No acadamies and no father son rules.
The other aspect of acadamies, that they bring in talented players that might not otherwise choose the code, needs an AFL controlled administration that brings on these players in non AFL states.

There are many problems here, and a clear program to solve tehm needs to be prepared. If it is not, then the collapse of the melbourne supporter base that carries the AFL can be expected. A Tasmanian team is an essential part of this, to regain the pathway that once drew most Tasmanian athletes to football. There is probably not a lot of time left for this.

The Magpies had Cloke & Nathan Brown playing in the reserves on the weekend.
You also handed one of these expansion teams one of the best attacking, running, marking, defending half back flankers in the AFL (Heath Shaw)
Your recruiters target these northern clubs' homesick players after they have had two to three years of development put into them.
Have a look from within!
Stop blaming everyone & everything else. Your club president has a sense of self entitlement. We all had to listen to the inflated pompous hype about Collingwood in March, yet only 6 weeks later he shines the torch everywhere else but upon himself.

Eddie has taken his eyes off the ball at his own club because he has been too involved in bullying tactics on his many media forums.
Now he is infatuated with raiding anything GWS to fuel his own agenda. Your club brings back 'homesick' players that want the self gratification of " playing for one of the biggest clubs on the MCG in front of the biggest crowds". As recently as last Saturday, when asked why he chose Collingwood & not stayed at GWS, Taylor Adams replied in such a way. Treloar has said the same. It's no wonder they chose to play for Buckley because he gave up 3 p'ships so he could play in front of big crowd for the biggest club on the biggest & best ground.

As an opposition supporter, I hope these two blokes stay at the helm for many more years!

 

[iameviljez]

Good post. I see it as this in Victoria:

Powerhouse 2: Geelong, Hawks
Big four: the four worst victorian teams on the ladder
Working class four: saints, dees, roos, dogs

In terms of being a "powerhouse", I don't class my club as being there. We are well set-up, make money and are extremely sustainable in the long-term, but we don't have the supporter base... yet. It'll be interesting to see how it goes after we have a few seasons outside the eight. Hopefully, though, a decade of dominance will have a flow-on effect.

 

[Goggin Our Best]

If and when Geelong are well out of contention ( hopefully thats not for a few years yet ) i wouldnt mind seeing a season dominated by 2 of the big 4 clubs

I will leave Essendon out of it - not knocking the Dons - but they havent got that inner city mungrel and hate in them which Richmond Collingwood Carlton certainly have

So if 2 of those 3 went say both 21-1 in a season - both with absolute star studded powerhouse teams - and met in a GF - i think it would be an exciting year

Long way off - miles off at present - but i wouldnt mind seeing it happen

 

[QuietB]

The problem with the big 4 clubs is that they still think being big 4 means something.

As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, if you want to see how it ends, see Melbourne who were once the big 1

 

[Ron The Bear]

The problem with the big 4 clubs is that they still think being big 4 means something.

Not really. It seems to bother supporters of Victorian clubs who aren't one of the Big Four the most.

We don't revel in it. It just is.

 

[dockshark]

The big 4 is a crock of s**t. Adelaide, West Coast And Freo are bigger than 3 of the 4 in terms of membership, supporter base size, revenue, corporate partnerships, and impact.

Just merge some Melbourne clubs already.

 

[Stopher]

I'm looking forward to next season already Entrenched? Nah, doubt it.

 

[JohnnyFontane90]

i know right? we should relegate the bottom 4 victorian clubs just to purge the league of their complete narcissism and self entitlement. essendon, collingwood, richmond and st kilda....get the * outta here!!!

 

[Mitchell Madness]

The only concern for the league is that they still haven't realised the big 4 hasn't been the big 4 in a very long time

Carlton and Essendon gettiNg done for cheating proves that some clubs are too entitled

Collingwood and Richmond still haven't fully jumped into the national competition

 

[Seedsfan]

Look who cares every club has its turn at the top and at the bottom. At the end of the the day the sun will rise and set regardless of were the big 4 are

 

[Seedsfan]

The only concern for the league is that they still haven't realised the big 4 hasn't been the big 4 in a very long time

Carlton and Essendon gettiNg done for cheating proves that some clubs are too entitled

Collingwood and Richmond still haven't fully jumped into the national competition

What we haven't jumped into the national comp because we don't sell our soul for a quick buck playing interstate

 

[Mitchell Madness]

What we haven't jumped into the national comp because we don't sell our soul for a quick buck playing interstate

Because the 4 clubs I mentioned believe the league should run through them

 

[iameviljez]

The other thing about this whole debate is that being part of the so-called "big four" has led to an arrogance that has led to the current predicament of these clubs.

Richmond couldn't stomach the idea that another club could dare poach one of their players, and got stuck into a massive player war that bankrupted their club. When coaching and recruiting department expenditure started to ramp up, Richmond couldn't go with the other clubs and got stuck into a massive rut. It didn't help that their success-at-any-cost attitude burned through coaches like firelighters.

Collingwood and Essendon thought that, deep down, their own superstars were somehow superior and anointed their favourite sons as the Chosen Coaches despite an apprenticeship that was in both cases woefully inadequate (admittedly, the same went for Brisbane). Hird didn't have control of his club or a sense of judgement honed by years of experience, and so oversaw a period that will damage Essendon for years to come. Such a program of injections would never, you'd think, have gotten through experienced rookie coaches such as Hinkley or Richardson.

Collingwood was so enamoured by its favourite son, Buckley, that they ripped their own club apart, including the nucleus of a team that should still be challenging for premierships, for fear that someone else might one day poach him from their midst. Could you imagine Geelong forcibly trying to transition out a champion premiership coach just so an underprepared favourite son might be able to parachute into the job, or Hawthorn?

Carlton's arrogance undid them, too. They thought they didn't have to play by the rules so long as they didn't get caught, and they paid the price. Following that, their Messiah complex has done them no favours. They traded away their future for Judd, while forgetting that it's pointless to have a champion in an ordinary team, and they are still paying for that one. Getting rid of Ratten for Malthouse was a bust, too.

 

[docko911]

Despite the dribble on this thread it is an extremely good point.

The big four would represent somewhere between 2-3 million AFL fans, or about the same as all the other clubs combined if you exclude Adelaide and West Coast, and don't consider any survey about Sydney to be factual.

So in effect about 30-40% of the AFLs supporter base is getting shitty because their team is stuck at the bottom of the ladder with little chance of rising quickly due to countless concessions for expansion clubs that means the best talent will not be available and the draft picks will be worth less. Add 2 teams that are loaded with all the talent from 2 drafts + a ton of top talent from other drafts, and some gun senior players.

So if GWS and GC combine for the 5 premierships from 2017 how will the AFL supporter base look then...

If this s**t goes really bad and the competition becomes heavily skewed, I could see a breakout league starting...

 

[iameviljez]

Yum, battered eyelids.

Otter's spleens! Wolfs' nipple chips, get 'em while they're hot, they're lovely.

 

[docko911]

The big 4 is a crock of s**t. Adelaide, West Coast And Freo are bigger than 3 of the 4 in terms of membership, supporter base size, revenue, corporate partnerships, and impact.

Just merge some Melbourne clubs already.

Freo.... Lol

Both Richmond and Collingwood have over 70,000 members, and Essendon and Carlton have a s**t load of fans in hiding.

Essendon and Carlton haven't been relevant for 15 years, Richmond 35, and Collingwood 5. If these clubs were the top 4 clubs right now there would be 60,000+ at every MCG game they play and 80,000+ at games between these clubs. TV ratings would be through the roof and sponsors would be handing over blank cheque books.

 

[sonnywalters]

Then you're ******* demented.

Richmond is second for attendances in 2016. Behind Collingwood, and ahead of Essendon & Carlton in 3rd & 4th.

The Big Four lives!

Dont worry Ron - just keep telling yourself all is well in Tigerland by constantly pointing to your 'we are a young side' stats.

Watch the attendances drop like a rock.

Richmond is an absolute basket case and the temporary good crowds are masking the crevices.

You haven't won a final since 2001 and I wouldn't be feeling too good about 2001 as you lost the other two finals by 70 & 68. And before you tell me the Saints only have one flag well the Tigers are also on 0 in the modern era (since 1987) when the comp when national.

In fact - you love stats. This proves Richmond are the worst club in the AFL modern era (since 1987)

http://afltables.com/afl/teams/allteams/overall_state.html

 

[PoppedCorn]

Stopped after first two lines of OP

What a load of poop.

 

[Sydney Bloods]

simple fact is the big 4 no longer exists, Hawthorn, Adelaide, West Coast, Collingwood are the big 4 in terms of profits, crowds and success.
carlton is a middle of the road team and as been for sometime. Essendon has been surpassed by hawthorn in every department.

and richmond well, richmond are simply richmond, the club is cursed. times change the big 4 is relic of the past and its growing more and more antiquated as the years go by. there was a time when melbourne were a big club, today their just another club. some people simply just don't get it.

 

[Infra Ted]

Then you're ******* demented.

Richmond is second for attendances in 2016. Behind Collingwood, and ahead of Essendon & Carlton in 3rd & 4th.

The Big Four lives!

Not entirely sure if serious but source for this info? I would have thought Adelaide would be #1 or #2

 

[Infra Ted]

'Big 4' is such an archaic term, as it stands there are several other clubs I would classify as 'big 4' before them. It's all swings and roundabouts though, these things change. As others have already said, the current 'big 4' are probably West Coast, Adelaide, Hawthorn and Collingwood.