MMA-UFC UFC 200: Brock Lesnar vs Mark Hunt - Jones has USADA Violation

nobbyiscool

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Here's the form email that Foxtel are sending to people who sent email complaints about the outage:

Hi there,
Thank you for contacting us regarding the interruption experienced during the UFC 200 Tate v Nunes fight on Sunday. We too are fans and are very sorry for the short interruption to the broadcast and completely understand your disappointment.
Given the nature of the service we provide, live events may experience technical difficulties from time to time.

Unfortunately, given the short length of the outage vs. the uninterrupted portion of the rest of the three hour event a refund isn’t available. In saying this, our technical team are currently looking into what caused this issue so we can do all possible to make sure it doesn’t happen again.
Kind Regards
The Foxtel team

I ended up calling them straight away, they backed up the email - I ended up speaking with disconnections and threatening to disconnect (I'm a 5-year+ subscriber). Unsurprisingly, they said they'd remove it from my bill.

So unfortunately, emailing clearly wasn't the way to go. From FB & Twitter it sounds like the people who rang up on Sunday and went through the overseas call centre/s had a much easier time.
 
Jul 24, 2009
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McGregor's win over him in just 13 seconds is all the more impressive because of Aldo's incredibly good defence.

McGregor does have amazing timing and Aldo effectively ran on to the left in their match. There was a side by side gif of that KO against a good left hook Hominick was able to land on him in their fight and they were eerily similar. His defense when he hangs back to counter is incredible though he does appear to make mistakes when he tries to lead. I'm hoping he tries to make Conor lead in their rematch... it should make for an incredible fight if he's able to accomplish it.
 
Apr 16, 2011
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McGregor does have amazing timing and Aldo effectively ran on to the left in their match. There was a side by side gif of that KO against a good left hook Hominick was able to land on him in their fight and they were eerily similar. His defense when he hangs back to counter is incredible though he does appear to make mistakes when he tries to lead. I'm hoping he tries to make Conor lead in their rematch... it should make for an incredible fight if he's able to accomplish it.
You're 100% right. I recall someone pointing out before the McGregor fight that Aldo has become almost entirely a counter striker. It's easy to see why Aldo did what he did against McGregor. You don't want McGregor pushing you back like he's done to others. McGregor's also deadly on the counter, so you're giving him something he's great at either way. Add in the fact that McGregor has a ridiculous amount of confidence in his abilities even for an MMA fighter. Most fighters would have evaded Aldo's blitz and looked to counter him the next time. Not McGregor. He sees the opening and he takes it. It'll be interesting to see how his loss to Diaz affects how he fights.

Hopefully we see McGregor and Aldo fight again. Seeing McGregor and Edgar fight would be great too. McGregor and Dana White both said he'll be defending his title after the Diaz rematch. I just don't think he'll fight at featherwight again though. If he doesn't then Aldo and Edgar would have to follow him up in weight to get that pay day.
 
Jul 8, 2015
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You're 100% right. I recall someone pointing out before the McGregor fight that Aldo has become almost entirely a counter striker. It's easy to see why Aldo did what he did against McGregor. You don't want McGregor pushing you back like he's done to others. McGregor's also deadly on the counter, so you're giving him something he's great at either way. Add in the fact that McGregor has a ridiculous amount of confidence in his abilities even for an MMA fighter. Most fighters would have evaded Aldo's blitz and looked to counter him the next time. Not McGregor. He sees the opening and he takes it. It'll be interesting to see how his loss to Diaz affects how he fights.

Hopefully we see McGregor and Aldo fight again. Seeing McGregor and Edgar fight would be great too. McGregor and Dana White both said he'll be defending his title after the Diaz rematch. I just don't think he'll fight at featherwight again though. If he doesn't then Aldo and Edgar would have to follow him up in weight to get that pay day.
Diaz along with Aldo will end McGregor... and they will all live happily ever after...
 
May 18, 2004
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I thought Aldo would mentally struggle to bounce back from the loss to Conor and so I tipped Edgar. Well and truly had that wrong. Hopefully McGregor can safely make 145 again but I'm honestly not holding my breath.

Brock's nearly 40 now yet he's still got that freakish speed. I expected that he'd have slowed down enough due to age that he wouldn't be able to get Hunt down and would go down from a hard shot while shooting recklessly in desperation. I still wouldn't back him against most of the top five but I think he'd have a pretty good shot against Miocic if they fought in the next year or so just because of styles.

Last time I can remember a "stand them up" chant at a UFC was UFC 100, funnily enough. That time though, shortly after they started chanting it Lesnar promptly turned Mir's face into hamburger meat and the fight was stopped. Felt bad for DC because he was fighting smart but I was almost reacting the same way.
 

nobbyiscool

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The reaction to DC kind of makes me wonder whether he's the draw that his fans/UFC want to think he is.

I guess we can assume that the figures off Wikipedia are the official buy rates, cos those buy rates are made public.

In the case of DC, his fights against Rumble and Gustafson didn't perform very well on PPV - they did less than half of the buys of 182 against Jones. Which makes me think that, in the case of Sundays fight, people shat on DC cos he wasn't the one that anyone went to see. They were initially wanting to see Jones, then they were wanting to see Silva. They didn't want to see DC do his thing - they wanted to see Silva do his.

As I think everyone agrees, you can't blame DC for fighting that way against Silva, cos a loss would've been a disaster.

But if this becomes a trend where his fights are boring and don't do that well on PPV it's going to become a problem for DC. You can't tell me that Joanna Champion and RDA (now Alvarez) only deserve to be on FS1 shows if people continue to be apathetic towards Cormier fights. And if his fights do ultimately become FS1 fights, that's going to cost him a lot of money.

Hes not at that point yet - I think the Gustafson fight was fight of the night - but it's a poor sign if, when threatened or under pressure, he's going to rely on lying on top of guys.


I wonder if this is why Lesnar didn't get booed for doing the same thing. In his fight he was the attraction, in Cormier's fight his opponent was the attraction.


Just on what others said about the card - it wasn't a terrible card by any stretch of the imagination. But it was well below great. And I think after all the hype and promotion, everyone expected great. Especially when the other shows that weekend were verging on being great. I think I said it Sunday, and I maintain it to be true that the actual PPV was the worst of the weekends shows.
 
Apr 16, 2011
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Nobody really knew what to expect with Lesnar. I think he was better than anyone could have expected him to be. Finishing Hunt in the first round with ground strikes would have been more impressive, but it would have told us a lot less about where he's at. He's never going to be a good striker, but he looked much better than he did before. No way would Lesnar have survived a round on the feet with Hunt during his last run. Lesnar's chin was never the issue, it was the way he reacted to being hit and in this fight he reacted very well. I hope to see him fight again because he just adds something to an event and he's still a damn good fighter.

The criticism of Cormier is really unfair. Luke Thomas has mentioned that it was Silva who was creating the lack of action on the ground with his use of the lockdown. Silva is a very old school fighter when it comes to fighting off of his back. Most fighters these days do everything they can to get back to their feet as soon as possible, but Silva understandably hasn't made that adaptation to his game. He's on his back and he's holding you to stop you mounting offence. The stand-ups weren't great because they rewarded Silva for stalling the action. Silva should have been warned to stop just holding on and to mount some offence himself. One of the worst examples of this was a stand-up in Tate/Eye I believe. Tate had Eye's back and the ref stood them up when Eye was stalling the action. It's hard to blame Silva for stalling the action given his lack of preparation, but that's what was happening.

I was worried about how Aldo would look in this fight. The McGregor loss could have really messed with his confidence. There's also the fact that he started fighting at a very young age and those fighters can have sudden drop-offs after the amount of time Aldo has been fighting for. Joe Stevenson's career did a nosedive in his late 20s. Obviously he was never close to being as good as Aldo, but it's something that happens and Aldo hasn't reached that place yet thankfully. It's a terrible stylistic fight for Edgar and I had to pick Aldo because of that reason, but I was worried because Edgar was still improving and Aldo may have been on the way down.

Fans saying that a fighter quit used to really irk me. It doesn't really now. I guess Tate did quit, but you can't blame her. She's shown herself to be one of the toughest fighters in MMA and Nunes put an absolute beating on her. Tate could have let Nunes sink the choke in properly and then it would look better, but it still would have been giving up.
 
Sep 12, 2007
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People were cheering "stand them up" when Hunt fought in Adelaide against Miocic. It was disgraceful. Especially considering Miocic set a new record for significant strikes in that fight.

I thought Aldo looked incredibly tentative for the first 3-4 minutes of the Frankie fight, like he was more concerned with a repeat of the McGregor result than he was with winning. Almost seemed like once he got past that and wore a few decent shots he got his mojo back.

I agree with BradWCE i dont think Conor ever gets back to F/weight.

On Cormier, i know we have done it to death, but... Just no... If Silva stalls and Cormier doesn't work to progress then absolutely stand them up. You're going to ask the bloke on his back to create the action... No, just no. If they stay like that the whole round Cormier wins so whilst it absolutely benefits the guy on the bottom to do something not penalizing a fighter for not advancing their position will result in alot of blokes getting on top and staying in guard or half guard smothering people and alot of those fights, and before someone counters with "Silva locked him down" yeh he did, it happens, but Corimer didnt try to pass at all. The bear was quite happy to sit in half guard and throw the odd body/head combo.

Further to this as i said i dont blame Cormier, he should have fought that way but no one can tell me they were enthralled with that fight. It was boring. I love a ground fight more than most, and clinch work i think is one of the most fascinating aspects of the sport (hand and head fighting, pummeling etc) but that was boring. It was a boring fight but you cant blame either guy.

With Tate, im being harsh for sure but the choke wasn't in, it cost me my multi and frankly Tate looked awful. Full credit to Nunes but i expected so much more from Tate.
 
With Tate, im being harsh for sure but the choke wasn't in, it cost me my multi and frankly Tate looked awful. Full credit to Nunes but i expected so much more from Tate.

Im still dirty on my Lombard/Magny bet. Bloke gets hit flush consistently and ref stares like a stale bottle of piss, where as first 2 fights of the 200 card, both Aussies lose to KO defending themselves but not doing anything.

More inconsistent than the umpiring at Subi!
 
Apr 16, 2011
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I thought Aldo looked incredibly tentative for the first 3-4 minutes of the Frankie fight, like he was more concerned with a repeat of the McGregor result than he was with winning. Almost seemed like once he got past that and wore a few decent shots he got his mojo back.
I think the early stages of the fight was just Aldo getting a read on Edgar. Much the same way that Anderson Silva did in a lot of his fights. Then once they know exactly what the other guy's going to do they unleash heavy counters. We'll never know, but I think that's got more to do with it than being concerned with repeating the McGregor fight.

On Cormier, i know we have done it to death, but... Just no... If Silva stalls and Cormier doesn't work to progress then absolutely stand them up. You're going to ask the bloke on his back to create the action... No, just no. If they stay like that the whole round Cormier wins so whilst it absolutely benefits the guy on the bottom to do something not penalizing a fighter for not advancing their position will result in alot of blokes getting on top and staying in guard or half guard smothering people and alot of those fights, and before someone counters with "Silva locked him down" yeh he did, it happens, but Corimer didnt try to pass at all. The bear was quite happy to sit in half guard and throw the odd body/head combo.

Further to this as i said i dont blame Cormier, he should have fought that way but no one can tell me they were enthralled with that fight. It was boring. I love a ground fight more than most, and clinch work i think is one of the most fascinating aspects of the sport (hand and head fighting, pummeling etc) but that was boring. It was a boring fight but you cant blame either guy.
What Silva was doing is the ground equivalent of not engaging at all on the feet. It's the grappling equivalent of what Silva was doing later in the Maia fight. In Pride Silva would have got a yellow card. In the unified rules he should have got warned to engage and if he continued to not attack then he should have got a point taken away for it. Cormier could have done more, but Silva was most at fault. Rewarding Silva with a stand up sets a horrible standard. You don't want the guy on the bottom to hold on for eternity to get stood up. You want him to work from bottom and takes chances to get up, which is what you get a lot of in MMA today.

I don't think the result of what I'm saying would have fighters staying in guard or half guard smothering people. If fighters tried to do that then they'd rightfully get stood up. The fighter on bottom would be trying to work but unable to because they're being smothered and the top fighter would be the one stalling the action.

With Tate, im being harsh for sure but the choke wasn't in, it cost me my multi and frankly Tate looked awful. Full credit to Nunes but i expected so much more from Tate.
I think the only reason that Tate looked worse than usual is all because of Nunes now that I think about it. Tate started badly against McMann, got dropped and came back because McMann isn't the dangerous finisher that Nunes is and can't put the amount of heavy strikes together that Nunes can. Eye was winning the early stages of her fight with Tate, but doesn't have a lot of pop in her strikes and then Tate dropped her to gain the advantage. Holm isn't the striker that will make Tate pay for starting slowly because she'll sit back and wait for you to come to her. That's Tate's last 3 fights before this one. It's easy in hindsight, but I think Nunes made Tate pay early in ways that probably would have happened in Tate's previous 3 fights if it was Nunes in there with her instead.
 
Apr 16, 2011
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Heavy Hands post-fight analysis of the best fights from UFC 200 and the other 2 cards:
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2016/7/1...-aldo-eddie-alvarez-heavy-hands-mma-technique

They mentioned an amazing stat that barely makes sense demonstrating how efficient Aldo was with his movement. Early in the 3rd round Aldo had travelled about 1,600 feet and Edgar had travelled about 2,300 feet. It makes very little sense that the fighter being walked down would have moved less than the fighter pressuring.
 
Sep 12, 2007
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I think the early stages of the fight was just Aldo getting a read on Edgar. Much the same way that Anderson Silva did in a lot of his fights. Then once they know exactly what the other guy's going to do they unleash heavy counters. We'll never know, but I think that's got more to do with it than being concerned with repeating the McGregor fight.

Hmm, i dont know. Certianly a feeling out process but given the fight game is 90% mental i think he had some demons to exorcise early. Taking a shot and getting some time seemed to loosed him up.

What Silva was doing is the ground equivalent of not engaging at all on the feet. It's the grappling equivalent of what Silva was doing later in the Maia fight. In Pride Silva would have got a yellow card. In the unified rules he should have got warned to engage and if he continued to not attack then he should have got a point taken away for it. Cormier could have done more, but Silva was most at fault. Rewarding Silva with a stand up sets a horrible standard. You don't want the guy on the bottom to hold on for eternity to get stood up. You want him to work from bottom and takes chances to get up, which is what you get a lot of in MMA today.

I don't think the result of what I'm saying would have fighters staying in guard or half guard smothering people. If fighters tried to do that then they'd rightfully get stood up. The fighter on bottom would be trying to work but unable to because they're being smothered and the top fighter would be the one stalling the action.

Gonna have to agree to disagree here. The day a fighter has a point taken for not being "active" off their back will be a sad sad day. You're a super knowledgable guy with MMA so im assuming you have rolled a bit and know a bit about BJJ, Cormier was doing absolutely nothing to try advancing his position either, hence the stand ups IMO were totally justified (although i will admit i think that over the last three cards there seemed to be a directive to stand or seperate inactive fighters very quickly, from memory the Joanna v Claudia fight had one that was just wrong).

To me the fighter seeking the take down and in the attacking position (on top, or with back control) needs to be working or advancing, Cormier wasn't doing either. Its worth noting as well he could have been striking from where he was. If the guy on top is in a smothering controlling position giving the guy on the bottom no room to move or create how would the ref know who to penalise. Remember Silva spent 23 minutes on his back against Sonnen and was setting up a triangle the whole time, how do we know he wasn't doing the same here. Its a fine line and seeing a guy lose a fight because of it (which is a strong possibility in MMA) would be wrong.



I think the only reason that Tate looked worse than usual is all because of Nunes now that I think about it. Tate started badly against McMann, got dropped and came back because McMann isn't the dangerous finisher that Nunes is and can't put the amount of heavy strikes together that Nunes can. Eye was winning the early stages of her fight with Tate, but doesn't have a lot of pop in her strikes and then Tate dropped her to gain the advantage. Holm isn't the striker that will make Tate pay for starting slowly because she'll sit back and wait for you to come to her. That's Tate's last 3 fights before this one. It's easy in hindsight, but I think Nunes made Tate pay early in ways that probably would have happened in Tate's previous 3 fights if it was Nunes in there with her instead.

Caraway came out afterwards talking about some health issues Meisha had had during her camp and obviously we know she only just got to weigh ins and had to strip right off. Meisha is a funny fighter, shes obviously been competitve against Rousey (the only person other than Holm to have been) and beat Holm (albeit with a hail mary sub) but she just always looks beatable, theres nothing dynamic about her at all, shes just... Solid but not great, everywhere.

Like you said in hindsight but you're dead right, signs were there... Im still dirty, that multi would have been awesome.
 
Apr 16, 2011
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The day a fighter has a point taken for not being "active" off their back will be a sad sad day.
Not sure why it would be. Wrestling and BJJ tournaments penalise competitors for stalling. It wouldn't be any different for me. If someone is flat on their back, holding on, not looking to sweep, not looking to get up and not looking to submit then they're not engaging in the fight. They're stalling and them losing a point would be justified. Maybe there needs to be something less severe in MMA though. Maybe if a fighter is completely stalling the action then the fight is restarted with the staller in a worse position. So with Anderson in the half guard lockdown stalling the action, the fight could be restarted with Cormier in side control.

Cormier was doing absolutely nothing to try advancing his position either, hence the stand ups IMO were totally justified.
Luke Thomas made a point that made a lot of sense to me regarding this. When a fighter is holding another fighter against the fence and there's nothing happening the fighters are separated. They're separated because the fighter who's holding the other against the fence is stalling the action. Anderson was the one holding on and stalling the action, so he's not the one who should be helped. Cormier was doing a hell of a lot more than Anderson. The stand up hurt him a lot and helped Anderson heaps even though Anderson was the fighter most at blame for the stalled action.

To me the fighter seeking the take down and in the attacking position (on top, or with back control) needs to be working or advancing, Cormier wasn't doing either. Its worth noting as well he could have been striking from where he was. If the guy on top is in a smothering controlling position giving the guy on the bottom no room to move or create how would the ref know who to penalise. Remember Silva spent 23 minutes on his back against Sonnen and was setting up a triangle the whole time, how do we know he wasn't doing the same here. Its a fine line and seeing a guy lose a fight because of it (which is a strong possibility in MMA) would be wrong.
I think you're misremembering the fight a bit. You say Cormier could have been striking from where he was. He was. He was landing strikes not long before both stand-ups. He landed 46 strikes or more every round per fightmetric (153 strikes for the fight). Not many were significant strikes, but he was landing plenty of strikes on the ground. Cormier was working because he was landing strikes.

How would the ref know who to penalise? I think it's pretty simple in the Cormier/Anderson fight. Cormier was in half guard landing strikes. Anderson was using the lock down. Cormier could have worked to break Anderson's lock down, but he didn't need to because Anderson was pinning himself in place leaving himself open to getting hit by strikes (Cormier landed 153 of 208 strikes, so 74% of the strikes he threw landed). Anderson used the lock down and didn't look for the underhook, so he was content to stay where he was.

Anderson wasn't setting anything up. He was flat on his back, in half guard lock down, holding on and not looking for an underhook. I don't really get that you said it should have been stood up and now you're arguing that Anderson might have been setting something up despite there being nothing to suggest this.
 
Sep 12, 2007
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Cbf multi posting plus I'm on my phone

- I take your point but it's not a wrestling or bjj comp. Points structure is totally different. Taking a point off a fighter in an MMA fight loses them a round. Do it twice they lose the fight. It's a slippery slope. As for making position worse, that's a better idea but I don't want to see it.

- I still think on the ground both guys were inactive. Cormier threw little shots yeh (probably didn't explain myself properly on this) but he spent more time grinding his head into Andersons face than he did trying to posture up to throw. I agree Anderson was holding him up (which it should be noted is still a legitimate and legal tactic so this is all talking about what we would like to see change not what was correct or incorrect in this fight) but my point was Cormier wasn't doing anything either. He got told to work, he was warned to advance his position and all he did was throw little body head shots did he try to advance or posture up to throw bigger shots? You say he did a hell of a lot more than Silva I disagree.

- you're making an extremely complex and nuanced part of a fight (the ground game) overly simple here. My point about Anderson setting something up was that for four and a half rounds against Sonnen he looked the same as he did here, not doing anything, but a body lock tires your opponent, also stretches them out and can make guys lazy with their hands and neck. My point is no one knows what Andersons tactics were here, just because you can't see his game plan doesn't mean you know it, because his lock wasn't actively trying to set something up doesn't mean he wasn't playing a long game (think Ali rope a doping but on the ground) On top of all of that the rules as they stand now require the fighter on top to make the fight so him stalling is as legitimate a tactic as any.
 
Mar 12, 2008
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Hunt said that Brock was so much stronger than he thought. If Brock couldn't have muscled his takedowns (his technique was questionable) then the fight is totally different.

Mark Hunt was right when he said before the fight, "most of the guys I fight are on steroids."
 
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