Vegan and Vegetarian Diets

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Abba Lonie said:
Going vegan/vegetarian is purely an ethical choice right? Surely nobody would do it for health benefits.
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Many people do for health reasons including Bill Clinton in the below video (singling him out because he had access to the best healthcare available and still had heart problems before switching diet)



A vegan diet helps prevent/reverse coronary heart disease, which is the #1 killer in our society.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4315380/
 

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i have admiration for vegans, i have known a few over the years including 2 family members, all of them the primary reason for their vegan stance is/was animal welfare. IMO a very admirable and compassionate life choice.

i have tried it myself a couple of times but just found it too hard when other people in the home are not into the same food choices.
 
It's pretty clearly more about deeper choices than it is "veganism is a healthy choice" "no! Eating meat is a healthy choice"
My boss is a vegan. Spends Friday and Saturday nights not eating and hitting the piss hard, buys take away salads from the joint near work "vegan health food take away". Eats kebabs with falafel all the time, a lot of bread with whatever she can have on it, only exercise she does is excessive cardio. Her BMI is also most likely to be closer to a healthier range than mine
Take a guess who is in"healthier" condition
 
DemonTim said:
It's pretty clearly more about deeper choices than it is "veganism is a healthy choice" "no! Eating meat is a healthy choice"
My boss is a vegan. Spends Friday and Saturday nights not eating and hitting the piss hard, buys take away salads from the joint near work "vegan health food take away". Eats kebabs with falafel all the time, a lot of bread with whatever she can have on it, only exercise she does is excessive cardio. Her BMI is also most likely to be closer to a healthier range than mine
Take a guess who is in"healthier" condition
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Well at least she cares. But in the future I'd suggest getting a meat-eatin boss, cause as we all know, there extremely healthy. :):thumbsu:
 
DazalenkoUBewty said:
Well at least she cares. But in the future I'd suggest getting a meat-eatin boss, cause as we all know, there extremely healthy. :):thumbsu:
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Way to miss the point completely. Was literally explained in the first sentence.
Posts like these are why people take the piss out of your choices.
 
DazalenkoUBewty said:
Mods need 'a name', too. I don't want to say grow a utensil.... But the hiding s**t annoys me...

'Oh uv been blocked from this, banned from that....
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You should be banned from this entire subforum, you're an aggressive obnoxious poster who would rather fight than try and have a reasonable discussion.
 
DazalenkoUBewty said:
What was ya point then? That it's about the cruelty aspect? WHAT WAS UR POINT???
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That neither meat eating nor veganism is inherently healthy on its own and it's completely down to individual make up of diet.
The first sentence explains that. Quite clearly
But no. You decided to assume it was an attack on vegans. Jesus Christ.
Again this is exactly why people mock you
(Also you realise there's a mod list you petulant child?)
 
StiffArm said:
1. It would be remiss of ANY study not to mention the risks of the topic it is exploring.

2. The whole reason I became vegan was because I couldn't find a single good reason not to, and not for lack of trying. All the arguments for eating meat are stupid =\

3. There are many successful vegan athletes around the world. The point is that nothing is lacking in a vegan diet.

I have no interest in argument, but if you're going to spew hateful misinformation at least be prepared to back it up.
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Vegans lack iron & b12 unless they are smart to get those in injections.

They also lack omega 3 which is very import for the brain, any Nuero surgeon will tell you that most brain diseases are from a lack of omega 3.
Vegan consume too much omega 6 which raises inflammation markers, it's inflammation that leads to heart issues not saturated fat from animals.
Fact is grass fed organically raised meat is more nutrient dense than any fruit or Vege as is eggs & raw oysters.

So anyone seeking the most nutritious diet they would include meat/fish-seafood/eggs, first off then add Vege n fruit as fillers &/or to add colour to the plate.

I'm a nutritional researcher so if I thought it would enhance my heath to eliminate meat from my diet then I would, I can understand if people don't eat meat-poultry etc because they don't like the taste but the people that don't eat meat because they believe they are healthier without it are sadly misinformed.
 
ablett said:
Vegans lack iron & b12 unless they are smart to get those in injections.

They also lack omega 3 which is very import for the brain, any Nuero surgeon will tell you that most brain diseases are from a lack of omega 3.
Vegan consume too much omega 6 which raises inflammation markers, it's inflammation that leads to heart issues not saturated fat from animals.
Fact is grass fed organically raised meat is more nutrient dense than any fruit or Vege as is eggs & raw oysters.

So anyone seeking the most nutritious diet they would include meat/fish-seafood/eggs, first off then add Vege n fruit as fillers &/or to add colour to the plate.

I'm a nutritional researcher so if I thought it would enhance my heath to eliminate meat from my diet then I would, I can understand if people don't eat meat-poultry etc because they don't like the taste but the people that don't eat meat because they believe they are healthier without it are sadly misinformed.
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Vegans tend to have lower iron reserves, but not higher rates of anemia than those on omnivorous diets. Iron absorption is also much higher when eaten in combination with vitamin C, and when reserve levels are not high. Long story short, the research suggests it is not a health issue.

Omega 3 IS something that vegans should look out for as it is important to get the right balance. A couple of tablespoons of flaxseed or chia through the day and they're sorted, or one can supplement with algae (the source fish get it from).

B12 is I would argue the only nutrient that vegans SHOULD supplement, as although we used to get plenty from untreated drinking water and soil traces on food we now live in a cleaner society.
That said, many on meat diets are also b12 deficient these days and currently 90% of b12 supplements go towards feeding animals worldwide who no longer get enough due to factory farming. It is much easier to absorb from supplement than meat as b12 bonds very strongly to animal protein and our stomach acids aren't always enough to break that bond.
http://baltimorepostexaminer.com/carnivores-need-vitamin-b12-supplements/2013/10/30

In essence, I can keep on top of ALL dangers of my diet by spending $20 a year on b12 supplement, and making sure I eat a few flaxseeds and chia seeds in some of my meals (conveniently, they also act as egg replacement in baking).

Now that we've dealt with all the potential dangers of a vegan diet, lets have a look at some of the risks associated with a meat diet.

Animal protein diets are associated with higher rates of cardiovascular diseases (which include heart attacks, strokes, hypertension and erectile dysfunction). Heart disease is the #1 killer in our society, and a vegan diet is proven to prevent and reverse it.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4315380/

Furthermore, red meats and processed meats are considered to be carcinogenic by the World Health Organisation, and animal protein is linked to higher rates of many cancers, especially bowel cancer.
http://www.who.int/features/qa/cancer-red-meat/en/

and finally, meat is linked to diabetes.
http://harvardmagazine.com/2012/01/a-diabetes-link-to-meat

While meat remains a dense source of calories and nutrients, it also acts to concentrate all the toxins present in our environment. Animal proteins have far higher concentrations of (cancer promoting) growth hormones, antibiotics which contribute to resistance, herbicides, pesticides, heavy metals and any other toxins the animal can't excrete end up stored in their tissues. Nutrient deficiency isn't so much of an issue in our society, on the other hand obesity DEFINITELY is with some sources quoting 63% of Australians as being above healthy weight.

In a recent study looking at tens of thousands of people across the US it was found that vegans were the ONLY diet group within healthy BMI ranges, on average by a full 5 points. Obesity is the leading cause of illness in our society.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671114/

Before it gets brought up by others, plants are a far healthier source of protein too.
http://www.nutritionmd.org/nutrition_tips/nutrition_tips_athletes/protein_best.html

And for good measure, research has showed that compared with a control group, a vegan diet group had a 73% decrease in coronary events as well as a 70% decrease in all-cause mortality.
http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/99/6/779


Sure vegan diets have some risks, but they're nothing like the risks involved with eating animal protein.

And we haven't even touched the stronger arguments of environmental impact and the morality of animal suffering.
 

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StiffArm said:
Vegans tend to have lower iron reserves, but not higher rates of anemia than those on omnivorous diets. Iron absorption is also much higher when eaten in combination with vitamin C, and when reserve levels are not high. Long story short, the research suggests it is not a health issue.

Omega 3 IS something that vegans should look out for as it is important to get the right balance. A couple of tablespoons of flaxseed or chia through the day and they're sorted, or one can supplement with algae (the source fish get it from).

B12 is I would argue the only nutrient that vegans SHOULD supplement, as although we used to get plenty from untreated drinking water and soil traces on food we now live in a cleaner society.
That said, many on meat diets are also b12 deficient these days and currently 90% of b12 supplements go towards feeding animals worldwide who no longer get enough due to factory farming. It is much easier to absorb from supplement than meat as b12 bonds very strongly to animal protein and our stomach acids aren't always enough to break that bond.
http://baltimorepostexaminer.com/carnivores-need-vitamin-b12-supplements/2013/10/30

In essence, I can keep on top of ALL dangers of my diet by spending $20 a year on b12 supplement, and making sure I eat a few flaxseeds and chia seeds in some of my meals (conveniently, they also act as egg replacement in baking).

Now that we've dealt with all the potential dangers of a vegan diet, lets have a look at some of the risks associated with a meat diet.

Animal protein diets are associated with higher rates of cardiovascular diseases (which include heart attacks, strokes, hypertension and erectile dysfunction). Heart disease is the #1 killer in our society, and a vegan diet is proven to prevent and reverse it.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4315380/

Furthermore, red meats and processed meats are considered to be carcinogenic by the World Health Organisation, and animal protein is linked to higher rates of many cancers, especially bowel cancer.
http://www.who.int/features/qa/cancer-red-meat/en/

and finally, meat is linked to diabetes.
http://harvardmagazine.com/2012/01/a-diabetes-link-to-meat

While meat remains a dense source of calories and nutrients, it also acts to concentrate all the toxins present in our environment. Animal proteins have far higher concentrations of (cancer promoting) growth hormones, antibiotics which contribute to resistance, herbicides, pesticides, heavy metals and any other toxins the animal can't excrete end up stored in their tissues. Nutrient deficiency isn't so much of an issue in our society, on the other hand obesity DEFINITELY is with some sources quoting 63% of Australians as being above healthy weight.

In a recent study looking at tens of thousands of people across the US it was found that vegans were the ONLY diet group within healthy BMI ranges, on average by a full 5 points. Obesity is the leading cause of illness in our society.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671114/

Before it gets brought up by others, plants are a far healthier source of protein too.
http://www.nutritionmd.org/nutrition_tips/nutrition_tips_athletes/protein_best.html

And for good measure, research has showed that compared with a control group, a vegan diet group had a 73% decrease in coronary events as well as a 70% decrease in all-cause mortality.
http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/99/6/779


Sure vegan diets have some risks, but they're nothing like the risks involved with eating animal protein.

And we haven't even touched the stronger arguments of environmental impact and the morality of animal suffering.
Click to expand...

Some valid points & some very debatable which I will later on but once I clicked on,
"plants are a far healthier source of protein too", you lost me once I seen soy milk mentioned which is outright poison & detrimental to ones health.
Fact is Plant protein is 50% less bioavailabile than meat n whey & not as palatable.
I'd like to see some studies done on eggs n seafood/fish re heart disease.

A balance between Vegan n no meat could be the answer, organic Vege n fruit, any grains/seeds consumed to be sprouted nuts aswell.
Animal flesh replaced with fish/seafood n eggs, whey replaced with plant derived animo acids for the body building/fitness enthusiast.

One issue I see which Vegans is the consume allot of fruit n Vege & if not organic they are consuming allot more chemical residue.
Vegeterians tend to eat allot of processed foods full of preservatives etc.... which means they are no heather than a meat eater eating processed meats.
 
ablett said:
Some valid points & some very debatable which I will later on but once I clicked on,
"plants are a far healthier source of protein too", you lost me once I seen soy milk mentioned which is outright poison & detrimental to ones health.
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ablett said:
Vegeterians tend to eat allot of processed foods full of preservatives etc.... which means they are no heather than a meat eater eating processed meats.
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These two points you raise are essentially red herring arguments. I consume exactly zero soy milk, much preferring other options personally such as almond milk, oat milk, rice milk, pea milk, hazelnut milk... Give it a couple of years and there will be a full spectrum of alternatives that are even closer to the real thing but much healthier.

I agree that processed foods are unhealthy, and consume very little myself, (only processed foods in my entire kitchen are a tub or margarine, a block of cooking chocolate, some vege burgers in the freezer for days I'm feeling lazy and a few condiments), but it is a false equivalency to put them on the same level of processed meats, which are proven causes of cancer and heart disease. Simply put, the meta studies show vegans live 7-10 years longer, and are far less likely to die of most of our major diseases.

ablett said:
Fact is Plant protein is 50% less bioavailabile than meat n whey & not as palatable.
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This is an oversimplification, and I believe you are getting your 50% figure from calorie densities (correct me if I'm wrong). Animal proteins are a little more readily available due to there being a similar amino acid spread to what we require, but not anywhere near a 50% difference. As to not being as palatable, perhaps you're talking whey supplements vs vegan. You'd probably be right, but there is lots of evidence why dairy isn't good for you :)

An interesting comparison here, the last sentence is especially interesting. Some evidence is suggesting that it is in fact animal protein that may cause health issues, not the individual products.
http://nutritionstudies.org/animal-vs-plant-protein/

ablett said:
One issue I see which Vegans is the consume allot of fruit n Vege & if not organic they are consuming allot more chemical residue.
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I'm glad you raised this, chemical residue is becoming a major issue in our time. Many unknowns with how badly they affect our bodies, and it often takes years for proven harmful compounds (like roundup) to eventually be banned.
Here is where it gets gnarly for your argument. A vegan eats the chemical residues on their plant based protein.
Animals also eat plant based protein.
An animal has to eat somewhere around 10kg of plant based protein to provide 1kg of animal protein (be it in grain or higher amounts of grass) and ALL these chemical residues that they aren't able to urinate are stored in their flesh. So while meat will have higher concentrations of calories and nutrients they will also have far higher concentrations of hormones, antibiotics, herbicides, pesticides and heavy metals.
This is ESPECIALLY bad in seafood, because it is not just a single link in the food chain but many, and a whole new can of worms is raised in the form of PCBs (toxic chemicals from the breakdown of plastic).
https://scripps.ucsd.edu/news/study-finds-toxic-pollutants-fish-across-worlds-oceans
While some older forms of toxicity like mercury and DDT are dropping, plastics and newer contaminants are at all time highs and we have very little research on how that affects us.

ablett said:
I'd like to see some studies done on eggs n seafood/fish re heart disease.
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ablett said:
A balance between Vegan n no meat could be the answer, organic Vege n fruit, any grains/seeds consumed to be sprouted nuts aswell.
Animal flesh replaced with fish/seafood n eggs, whey replaced with plant derived animo acids for the body building/fitness enthusiast.
Click to expand...
Being the nutrition researcher among us I'll let you find the studies, I'm interested in the results.
From my previous research I've found eggs to be a far from healthy form of food, and mixed opinions on fish. Concerns for large concentration of toxins in fish (often thousands of times background levels) and fish is incredibly unsustainable, with some studies suggesting our oceans will be completely depleted by 2050.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/11/061102-seafood-threat.html

If you want to sneak a look at some of the environmental arguments for veganism I really suggest watching Cowspiracy on netflix. Alternatively, here are some of the claims raised and their source material.
http://www.cowspiracy.com/facts/
 
Here's my main issue with vegans, i've known plenty for years who are some of my best friends who incidentally, are the complete opposite of this.

Mate just posted that someone was going around their neighbourhood dropping these in peoples mailboxes..

14681768_10154293039611773_2453680825795241847_n.jpg
 
PoppedCorn said:
U eat margarine??
:eek:
That s**t isn't even a food
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Yup.

I don't pretend to anyone, least of all myself, that it is remotely healthy. It helps me from time to time with baking dishes as a fat substitute, and every now and then I'll have some on bread.

Same as I don't pretend drinking alcohol is healthy, but I'll have a few drinks from time to time.
 
Nickos66 said:
Here's my main issue with vegans, i've known plenty for years who are some of my best friends who incidentally, are the complete opposite of this.

Mate just posted that someone was going around their neighbourhood dropping these in peoples mailboxes..

14681768_10154293039611773_2453680825795241847_n.jpg
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Broken image, but I'll assume it's some sort of vegan propaganda.

The issue is that to many vegans the arguments appear fairly overwhelmingly stacked in favor of mass veganism. If it was purely about health I would understand more those pushing a "live and let live" attitude (I know, that saying is ironic in this context).

But then consider that animal agriculture is the leading cause of world hunger, deforestation, greenhouse gases, deforestation and ocean dead zones.
Each day, a person who eats a vegan diet saves 4000 liters of water, 20 kilos of grain, 2.7m^2 of forested land, 10 kg CO2 equivalent, and one animal’s life.
It becomes clear that there are bigger issues at stake and a simple move to become vegan does more for the world than all the recycling, short showers, prius driving, light switching off that you can do by an order of magnitude.

Then consider the inherent cruelty embedded in the animal agriculture industry. I'm not going to post videos here, but you know the ones I'm talking about. Those that document just how miserable the lives of animals brought up to be consumed really are, and the scale of it all. The basic argument becomes given that a vegan diet is at least as healthy (and in all likelyhood healthier), and far better for the environment, do the animals suffer more than humans benefit from eating them?

Many people simply aren't aware of the consequences of the choices they make. Or don't want to be. Ignorance can be blissful.

There was a time that Slavery was commonplace in society, and the first agitators against it were probably ******* annoying too. Sometimes it is what society needs.
 
StiffArm said:
Yup.

I don't pretend to anyone, least of all myself, that it is remotely healthy. It helps me from time to time with baking dishes as a fat substitute, and every now and then I'll have some on bread.

Same as I don't pretend drinking alcohol is healthy, but I'll have a few drinks from time to time.
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Its not a food
Why don't u eat a plastic bag??

Can't believe someone who promotes so much health and non meat stuff then puts something in their body that is not even classed as a food
Each to their own.
 
Personally, I believe confirmation bias is far more blissful than ignorance, but then the two go hand in hand..

1st world Organic Farming practices and their pathetic yields I wager is likely just as more environmentally devastating per capita than any non-vegan farming practices. I also won't be posting any links because they won't be from sources that can be deemed from emotionally invested people as anything else but confirmation bias against vegans.
 
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