NIIIICEEE GARRRYY.. Ehh maybe not that nice, did we just watch Lyon's last test?

[Tyberious Funk]

Personally, I think it's highly unlikely that O'Keefe would succeed at Test level. But he has an excellent first class record, and I feel that players performing well in the Shield should really be given an opportunity. Particular when they are vying for a spot against an incumbent (ie, Lyon in this case) who has been so terribly out of form.

I've said before, I don't know if it is Lyon's fault, Smith, or Lehmann. But watching him bowl defensive, legside s**t is excruciating. Since we generally have a good pace attack, I don't mind picking a spinner who bowls defensive darts and keeps it tight - which makes O'Keefe viable. Lyon bowls defensively making it hard for him to take a wicket. And yet, when the batsmen really go after him, he can't seem to keep it tight. We're getting nothing of value out of him.

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Well my my. Aren't you just the most precious one?

No. I know him from the Geelong board.
This'll just go around in circles, loves an argument.

My view on O'keefe isn't based on stats so it's going to be fruitless arguing with stats centric views.

 

[The 747]

I don't care for baseless hunches either and as a game based on numbers I somehow doubt that 'because I think so' is going to suddenly prove to be an accurate way to predict someone's potential for success

Well I agree with him. O'Keefe won't make it as Test level. He has no turn, no flight, no bounce and no drift. He is not good enough sorry.

 

[The 747]

Having said that, Lyon can't keep bowling like this and keep his place either.

 

[Carbine Chaos]

People attack O'Keefe's style of bowling but continually fail to account for his excellent FC record.

They may say he dominates state 'plodders' but then why don't the rest of the spinners in Australia?

Makes zero sense.

 

[ioppolo]

Like SOK would do any worse than Lyon this summer.

 

[The 747]

People attack O'Keefe's style of bowling but continually fail to account for his excellent FC record.

They may say he dominates state 'plodders' but then why don't the rest of the spinners in Australia?

Makes zero sense.

Again you go with the stats. Those us who don't rate him (which also seems to be every member of the selection panel for the past few years) don't think he will be effective at Test level for the reasons that you have been given several times. Those reasons are less of an issue at first class level because the players are of lower quality.

 

[STFU Donnie]

No. I know him from the Geelong board.
This'll just go around in circles, loves an argument.

My view on O'keefe isn't based on stats so it's going to be fruitless arguing with stats centric views.

Firstly, apologies for the tone of my post. I agree with you BTW. I doubt SOK will make it, but Lyon's place in the team is becoming untenable, so who are the realistic alternatives? One thing I've just learned about O'Keefe that really surprises me - he's 32, three years older than Lyon.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Firstly, apologies for the tone of my post. I agree with you BTW. I doubt SOK will make it, but Lyon's place in the team is becoming untenable, so who are the realistic alternatives? One thing I've just learned about O'Keefe that really surprises me - he's 32, three years older than Lyon.

Not really any alternatives. The next below aren't up to it imo and below that are average leggies.

As a point of comparison how have the SA and Pak spinners fared? Not great this summer either imo which suggests pitch conditions are playing a part. Shah was spanked today and he's better than Lyon. All I saw yesterday was "throw it up"... "give it some air". Shah did that and was dispatched, so maybe that's why Lyon didn't do it all that much? Ashwin was dispatched here last tour as well.

I don't think conditions here in recent summers suit a spinner greatly, in previous summers there's been Harris, Siddle and Johnson building pressure (or in Johnson's case scaring the s**t out of them) which helps a spinner when conditions aren't ideal. Not quite the same with this new attack.

 

[Damon_3388]

Well I agree with him. O'Keefe won't make it as Test level. He has no turn, no flight, no bounce and no drift. He is not good enough sorry.

People attack O'Keefe's style of bowling but continually fail to account for his excellent FC record.

They may say he dominates state 'plodders' but then why don't the rest of the spinners in Australia?

Makes zero sense.

What makes people think O'Keefe would be any less successful than, say, Ravi Jadeja, at Test level? They're pretty similar bowlers who supposedly have nothing to worry a batsman, yet somehow keep taking wickets at extremely miserly economy rates.

 

[The Swans Blog]

Significantly improved his strike rate and average this series, but his summer stats still aren't flash.



Of the 4 bowlers that have taken wickets, he's by far the most expensive bowler. His stats were an atrocious 140/90 before he landed his first wicket on the 5th day. More worrying is the fact that he's bowled 13 less overs than Bird, yet has conceded almost the same no. of runs.


After 5 tests this summer, Lyon has 12 wickets. In a series that's a decent number, but for a front line bowler, first choice spinner, that's miserly at best, it's just unacceptable. Perhaps the worst aspect is his wickets per innings, which was sitting at 1 before his haul, now 1.33. Much maligned Bird is certainly going at it a lot better than Lyon.

After those 3 wickets, reverted to his shitty darts, what a surprise.

 

[carnthemlions]

Significantly improved his strike rate and average this series, but his summer stats still aren't flash.

View attachment 323399

Of the 4 bowlers that have taken wickets, he's by far the most expensive bowler. His stats were an atrocious 140/90 before he landed his first wicket on the 5th day. More worrying is the fact that he's bowled 13 less overs than Bird, yet has conceded almost the same no. of runs.

View attachment 323398
After 5 tests this summer, Lyon has 12 wickets. In a series that's a decent number, but for a front line bowler, first choice spinner, that's miserly at best, it's just unacceptable. Perhaps the worst aspect is his wickets per innings, which was sitting at 1 before his haul, now 1.33. Much maligned Bird is certainly going at it a lot better than Lyon.

After those 3 wickets, reverted to his shitty darts, what a surprise.

If you hate the fact that Lyon bowls darts, you're going to love O'Keefe/Agar/Holland.

What makes people think O'Keefe would be any less successful than, say, Ravi Jadeja, at Test level? They're pretty similar bowlers who supposedly have nothing to worry a batsman, yet somehow keep taking wickets at extremely miserly economy rates.

I can see the comparison, at least insofar as I don't rate either of them at all when I actually watch them bowl but they continue to get wickets anyway. Realistically, Jadeja somehow averages 24 in tests (should be more like 34), and I can't see O'Keefe ever getting close to that if he gets a decent run.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Spinner stats in Australia from last 25/30 years

 

[The_Reaper]

View attachment 323412

Spinner stats in Australia from last 25/30 years

And?

Lyon learned how to bowl on these wickets. They are not alien to him.

 

[Smeg Head]

View attachment 323412

Spinner stats in Australia from last 25/30 years

No Panesar?

 

[Damon_3388]

And?

Lyon learned how to bowl on these wickets. They are not alien to him.

Well, it seems some of the "wizardy" people are wanting/expecting from Lyon doesn't seem to work in Australia anyway, and seemingly fairly he's adequate for our conditions. Yes, he's had a lean run recently, but overall, his record is fine.

He's also got a better strike rate in India, Sri Lanka and the West Indies than he does in Australia, too, so he can take wickets in spinning conditions as well, despite some poeple's apparently certainty that he can't/won't.

No Panesar?

Aside from one lone 5-fer, his record in Australia is rubbish. In fact, even including the 5-fer it's rubbish - 48.92 average, 74 strike rate, 3.96 economy rate.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

And?

Lyon learned how to bowl on these wickets. They are not alien to him.

Not sure you can 'learn' how to bowl on wickets that don't turn much and don't break up. It's just hard, as every single spinner in the last 30 years has found out.

 

[The Swans Blog]

For someone that's used to Australian conditions, his performance this summer has been disgraceful.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Only 5 more wickets to get himself into the top 10 for our nation. Hope it happens next test.
Would be a deserved achievement.

 

[The_Reaper]

Only 5 more wickets to get himself into the top 10 for our nation. Hope it happens next test.
Would be a deserved achievement.

Good achievement but reflective of the amount of tests played nowdays

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Good achievement but reflective of the amount of tests played nowdays

He's not far off Lindwall above him for wickets per match. There's nothing wrong either with being a consistent contributor with longevity.
Never starring but consistently contributing.

 

[Cleavy]

I think Mushtaq Ahmed's figures are quite reasonable, considering he was bowling after Wasim and Waqar.

 

[Mitchell Madness]

The problem with Lyon is, he has no one to form a partnership with

People praise Warne, but forget he was often in partnership with McGrath
McGrath would put the ball in the same spot every ball and frustrate the batsmen, and they would go after Warne as a result

Murali also had several bowlers throughout his career that would frustrate the batsmen, making it easier for him in return

It's no coincidence that his best bowling has come when Australia has had some decent fast bowlers down the other end
Even in the Boxing Day test, Starc bowled brilliantly, and look what happened, Lyon grabbed three wickets in a great spell

Very few spinners are strike bowlers, and that's particularly true for Lyon

 

[Carbine Chaos]

The problem with Lyon is, he has no one to form a partnership with

People praise Warne, but forget he was often in partnership with McGrath
McGrath would put the ball in the same spot every ball and frustrate the batsmen, and they would go after Warne as a result

Murali also had several bowlers throughout his career that would frustrate the batsmen, making it easier for him in return

It's no coincidence that his best bowling has come when Australia has had some decent fast bowlers down the other end
Even in the Boxing Day test, Starc bowled brilliantly, and look what happened, Lyon grabbed three wickets in a great spell

Very few spinners are strike bowlers, and that's particularly true for Lyon

Mm. Lyon has two very accurate bowlers in the side in Hazlewood and Bird. Also, the batsmen do go after him at times.

He's an enigma. He's capable of bowling good spells but he's also guilty of a lot of poor bowling, going too straight instead of going over the wicket and tossing it a bit wider.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Mm. Lyon has two very accurate bowlers in the side in Hazlewood and Bird. Also, the batsmen do go after him at times.

He's an enigma. He's capable of bowling good spells but he's also guilty of a lot of poor bowling, going too straight instead of going over the wicket and tossing it a bit wider.

Think back to last ashes and compare to the squad of bowlers now. You had the strike bowler Harris who nipped the ball around, swing, pace. You name it. They left him alone a little bit.

Johnson. Strike bowling intimidator. He mind*ed them that series and they never looked like scoring off them.

Siddle and Lyon had good series because of the first two as they were the ones targeted. Lyon would get slogged into the deep (got KP 2-3 times that way, and Bell also from memory) and Sids would get wickets by trying to be dispatched of his impeccable line.

Starc is no Johnson. Strike bowler he is but nowhere near as intimidating, meanwhile his 'not quite on' spells leak runs like a sieve.
Bird and Haze are no Sids or Harris 13/14.

No doubt Lyon isn't at the top of form right now. That's all on him to rectify, however, there are valid comparisons that can be made as to why he's less effective now. Pressure isn't built up as well from the other end as it once was.