2016/17 Summer of Cricket - AUS vs India 2nd test- 4th innings

[Cannon82]

Middle order bats probably expected to be able to score a little more freely (depending on the game situation). Hence Renshaw and probably Khawaja will always be top 3 bats. You could easily chuck Warner, Ponting or Hodge in at 6 if you wanted and they'd do fine.

As for other comments, you don't bat a good #3 at 6 is because you want your best bats at the top of the order dealing with the best bowlers at their most difficult. Still, if your best 6 bats around the country are all batting in the top 3 or 4 for their states, a couple of them are going to get shuffled around.

Most top 3 bats would love to come out and face a 30 over old ball on a wicket a couple of hours in.

 

[Sando22]

I think a lot in the general public think:
Can bat = can bat anywhere in the team

It's not even slightly true

Yep I agree mate.
Different dynamic, new ball vs older ball (and yes a new ball is taken after 80 overs but the bowler is nowhere near as fresh), anchor an innings vs steer an innings. FWIW if Maxwell can make it work, he's actually the perfect number 6 because he scores well and plays spin pretty well too.
Khawaja is arguably our most talented bat and when not on the subcontinent, should walk straight back in ahead of Marsh. It is a shame he is sooo lost against spin.

 

[Sando22]

Middle order bats probably expected to be able to score a little more freely (depending on the game situation). Hence Renshaw and probably Khawaja will always be top 3 bats. You could easily chuck Warner, Ponting or Hodge in at 6 if you wanted and they'd do fine.

As for other comments, you don't bat a good #3 at 6 is because you want your best bats at the top of the order dealing with the best bowlers at their most difficult. Still, if your best 6 bats around the country are all batting in the top 3 or 4 for their states, a couple of them are going to get shuffled around.

Most top 3 bats would love to come out and face a 30 over old ball on a wicket a couple of hours in.

Well said mate, I agree 100%

 

[Cannon82]

Well said mate, I agree 100%

Strange, as I disagree with you guys. You should be able to bat anywhere - just require a little mental adjustment. Can understand people who prefer to face pace to start with rather than come out fresh and gauge how much a pitch / bowler is turning it, but batting isn't rocket science and all batsmen should be able to cope with different batting conditions.

I generally wouldn't define someone as a "#3 bat". I might call the bloke batting at 3 our best bat, but your best bats always bat in the top 3 IMO unless they have some fairly serious technical deficiencies that only allow them to doink trundlers and spinners out of the park.

 

[DemonTim]

Strange, as I disagree with you guys. You should be able to bat anywhere - just require a little mental adjustment. Can understand people who prefer to face pace to start with rather than come out fresh and gauge how much a pitch / bowler is turning it, but batting isn't rocket science and all batsmen should be able to cope with different batting conditions.

I generally wouldn't define someone as a "#3 bat". I might call the bloke batting at 3 our best bat, but your best bats always bat in the top 3 IMO unless they have some fairly serious technical deficiencies that only allow them to doink trundlers and spinners out of the park.

If it was that easy crickey australia would be throwing massive coin at you to coach their players

 

[Sando22]

Strange, as I disagree with you guys. You should be able to bat anywhere - just require a little mental adjustment. Can understand people who prefer to face pace to start with rather than come out fresh and gauge how much a pitch / bowler is turning it, but batting isn't rocket science and all batsmen should be able to cope with different batting conditions.

I generally wouldn't define someone as a "#3 bat". I might call the bloke batting at 3 our best bat, but your best bats always bat in the top 3 IMO unless they have some fairly serious technical deficiencies that only allow them to doink trundlers and spinners out of the park.

I took your comments as if you were a number 3 you wouldn't be batting at 6.

 

[Sando22]

You should be able to bat anywhere - just require a little mental adjustment. Can understand people who prefer to face pace to start with rather than come out fresh and gauge how much a pitch / bowler is turning it, but batting isn't rocket science and all batsmen should be able to cope with different batting conditions.

Mental adjustment?
How about a settled dressing room and lineup so as guys know when and (to a point) who they are batting with.
Think you're downplaying the concentration required to be a sucessful Test batsman batsman.
All good batsman SHOULD be able to cope with a range of conditions/pitches/bowling yes and most can but some can't and Khawaja is one of those. It's a strange one too because for a bloke who looks so at home and appears to have so much time on our wickets against pace, he looks like sh*t when the pace is off and it's spinning.

 

[Cannon82]

Mental adjustment?
How about a settled dressing room and lineup so as guys know when and (to a point) who they are batting with.
Think you're downplaying the concentration required to be a sucessful Test batsman batsman.
All good batsman SHOULD be able to cope with a range of conditions/pitches/bowling yes and most can but some can't and Khawaja is one of those. It's a strange one too because for a bloke who looks so at home and appears to have so much time on our wickets against pace, he looks like sh*t when the pace is off and it's spinning.

I agree to a point there, which was why I think the way Khawaja has been treated is woeful. How "settled" is your dressing room when one of the fixtures in the team has just been arbitrarily speared? Then expect him to hang around and be in a good frame of mind to fill in if one of the top 3 get injured? Either parked as 12th man for the series or set up to fail.

Let's not pretend it's that much of a deal. If it was, no one in the world would use night watchmen because of the disruption. It's test match cricket - not like batting 7 in a one-dayer and having a couple of sighters before trying to launch every second ball out of the park with 6 overs to go. You'd expect every test batsmen to be disciplined and leaving most deliveries early doors - that doesn't change from 1 to 6 - and once in, play their natural games and/or bat to match conditions.

 

[Sando22]

I agree to a point there, which was why I think the way Khawaja has been treated is woeful. How "settled" is your dressing room when one of the fixtures in the team has just been arbitrarily speared? Then expect him to hang around and be in a good frame of mind to fill in if one of the top 3 get injured? Either parked as 12th man for the series or set up to fail.

Let's not pretend it's that much of a deal. If it was, no one in the world would use night watchmen because of the disruption. It's test match cricket - not like batting 7 in a one-dayer and having a couple of sighters before trying to launch every second ball out of the park with 6 overs to go. You'd expect every test batsmen to be disciplined and leaving most deliveries early doors - that doesn't change from 1 to 6 - and once in, play their natural games and/or bat to match conditions.

I don't necessarily love the way he's been treated but he's on hand for a worst case scenario I think and coming into this series, every player within that side or just outside it would have had a fair idea of the XI heading into the first test and that Khawaja was probably not one of them.
His lack of ability against the spinning ball has been well documented and actually stands out like dogs balls if you've seen him try and bat against it.
His efforts in 2 separate series in Sri Lanka were beyond bad and they don't have Jedeja and Ashwin.
A touring squad is just that and has been a constant in cricket for a very very long time.
Not the first and won't be the last player to go on tour and not play

 

[DemonTim]

I agree to a point there, which was why I think the way Khawaja has been treated is woeful. How "settled" is your dressing room when one of the fixtures in the team has just been arbitrarily speared? Then expect him to hang around and be in a good frame of mind to fill in if one of the top 3 get injured? Either parked as 12th man for the series or set up to fail.

Let's not pretend it's that much of a deal. If it was, no one in the world would use night watchmen because of the disruption. It's test match cricket - not like batting 7 in a one-dayer and having a couple of sighters before trying to launch every second ball out of the park with 6 overs to go. You'd expect every test batsmen to be disciplined and leaving most deliveries early doors - that doesn't change from 1 to 6 - and once in, play their natural games and/or bat to match conditions.

Apparently every cricket team disagrees with you then.

As I said if it was that simple you'd be a millionaire employed by every team in the world.

 

[Cannon82]

I don't necessarily love the way he's been treated but he's on hand for a worst case scenario I think and coming into this series, every player within that side or just outside it would have had a fair idea of the XI heading into the first test and that Khawaja was probably not one of them.
His lack of ability against the spinning ball has been well documented and actually stands out like dogs balls if you've seen him try and bat against it.
His efforts in 2 separate series in Sri Lanka were beyond bad and they don't have Jedeja and Ashwin.
A touring squad is just that and has been a constant in cricket for a very very long time.
Not the first and won't be the last player to go on tour and not play

Yet again, if he is such a bad player of spin, why is he on a tour to India at all? Yes you bring players along as backups, but this is the first time I've seen someone brought along with no intention to play them.

 

[DemonTim]

Yet again, if he is such a bad player of spin, why is he on a tour to India at all? Yes you bring players along as backups, but this is the first time I've seen someone brought along with no intention to play them.

People had been saying for a long time that there was no intention of playing maxwell

It's pretty much every tour a player will be left out.

I think you just have a man crush on khawaja.

 

[Sando22]

Yet again, if he is such a bad player of spin, why is he on a tour to India at all? Yes you bring players along as backups, but this is the first time I've seen someone brought along with no intention to play them.

Mate, as a back up like I said - worst case stuff.
This is going round in circles so let's just call it quits and agree to disagree.
He's not in the best 11 atm because he can't play spin but if Smith, Marsh, etc. go down then we'd probably have to settle for him and hope for the best.
Not sure why it's so hard to get your head around but this is my final post on the matter.

 

[DemonTim]

Mate, as a back up like I said - worst case stuff.
This is going round in circles so let's just call it quits and agree to disagree.
He's not in the best 11 atm because he can't play spin but if Smith, Marsh, etc. go down then we'd probably have to settle for him and hope for the best.
Not sure why it's so hard to get your head around but this is my final post on the matter.

It's no different to footy really
Spencer gets named emergency a fair bit. That doesn't mean he's good enough to play. But if something bad happens to Gawn we have to settle on that

 

[Sando22]

It's no different to footy really
Spencer gets named emergency a fair bit. That doesn't mean he's good enough to play. But if something bad happens to Gawn we have to settle on that

Pretty fair comparison

 

[Cannon82]

Pretty fair comparison

Nah, it'd be more like dropping Gawn when we play against St Kilda because Hickey has towelled him up the last few times.

 

[Sando22]

Nah, it'd be more like dropping Gawn when we play against St Kilda because Hickey has towelled him up the last few times.

Had the better of - yes, towelled - no

 

[Cannon82]

Had the better of - yes, towelled - no

My bad, so dropping Gawn for Spencil because Hickey has had the better of him.

 

[Sando22]

My bad, so dropping Gawn for Spencil because Hickey has had the better of him.

Cool. That wasn't the point he was making though - it had nothing to do with St Kilda and I think you're being a smart ass

 

[Cannon82]

Cool. That wasn't the point he was making though - it had nothing to do with St Kilda and I think you're being a smart ass

Hardly. If we're advocating horses for courses, which you appear to be, then this is exactly the same principle. And if you're a fan of horses for courses, you're not really advocating for a settled dressing room. Seems rather contradictory to me.

 

[Topkent]

I think a lot in the general public think:
Can bat = can bat anywhere in the team

It's not even slightly true

Er Ponting, Clarke, Langer, Martyn Hussey etc all cut their teeth at 6.

 

[DemonTim]

Er Ponting, Clarke, Langer, Martyn Hussey etc all cut their teeth at 6.

Again. Been discussed. There is a difference between starting somewhere and becoming good enough to play further up the order, and playing a spot in the order and then just being shoved wherever.

You're also mentioning some of the best batters in our modern teams. "Guys Ponting did it so therefore everyone else can"

 

[Topkent]

Again. Been discussed. There is a difference between starting somewhere and becoming good enough to play further up the order, and playing a spot in the order and then just being shoved wherever.

You're also mentioning some of the best batters in our modern teams. "Guys Ponting did it so therefore everyone else can"

Right but you fellas are saying Khawaja is a top 3 batter which is where your best bat. Yet he wouldn't be able to adapt to a number 6 spot?

 

[DemonTim]

Right but you fellas are saying Khawaja is a top 3 batter which is where your best bat. Yet he wouldn't be able to adapt to a number 6 spot?

No. And that's not just us fellas. Apparently cricket Aus and cricket Victoria coaches feel the same

Do the best full forwards automatically play well at CHF?

 

[Topkent]

No. And that's not just us fellas. Apparently cricket Aus and cricket Victoria coaches feel the same

Do the best full forwards automatically play well at CHF?

That's a different comparison, full forwards and Centre half forwards have different physical makeups. Cricket is just not getting out and scoring runs.

Almost all batsmen come into the test side at 5 or 6 and cut their teeth before they move up to 3 of there amazing. There isn't really such thing as a good number 6. A number 6 is either a temporary batsmen or a temporary number 3 or 4