Recommitted Josh Kelly [re-signed]

[Mr Magic]

For him to walk to Freo or Carlton in the PSD they have to be paying the salary he's asking. Can't see anyone else offering that kind of deal at this stage.

Why??

I cannot see the legal basis.

The other thing is is the player technically playing for the clubs or the league?

Any contract offering outside completion rules surely would be deemed irrelevant, A contract that cannot be facilitated by a trade within competitive market parameters surely would be deemed irrelevant as not compliant with the rules and governance framework of the competitive league IMO! Otherwise one is effectively saying the player can act as a free agent when clearly he has not been afforded such a privilege as a registered player ordered to comply with the competition framework to facilitate genuine competition within the clubs as a competition for a prize!

It is an interesting one because all players by signing up as registered players to the league obviously have agreed to deemed remuneration amounts as part of the initiation phase for 2 years when signing up. Surely there would need to be a similar consensus reached for stakeholders regarding service and remuneration where players decide to gap the system by jumping off the cliff while not a free-agent into any draft from any league club such as GWS. Obviously remuneration would depend on the service the player can afford any related club and league. It is an interesting one if the player chooses to play a park role at another club/location in a temporary situation. In fact parallels could be drawn with other recent disputes in recent years where players are still within contracts and choose to play for better or worse.

 

[Giant Strides]

We also sold the farm for a promising gws kid

We now use the farm for camping, fishing & pig-shooting. Apparently crack-smoking is kept to an absolute minimum, but hey, there's always one in a crowd.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

Let's not bring up this PSD crap already, please. It will not happen. The worst case scenario is an 11th hour trade like JOM.

 

[Mr Magic]

Let's not bring up this PSD crap already, please. It will not happen. The worst case scenario is an 11th hour trade like JOM.

I think there is more room to facilitate such deals as North can trade future picks as well however at some stage I think a player will simply jump ship.

By the way this is not PSD crap. Crap is crap and has a distinct smell.

I am sure the AFL will issue direction at some point going forward before the situation arises consistent with the principles it and the competition adheres to!

The PSD effects are relevant for the clubs and players in terms of how they mitigate their risks when making decisions in such areas as well!

It is interesting because apparently RFC and CFC are chasing Schache of the Lions according to some. No idea who is offering what but CFC could be in the box seat if they finish last, apart from Brisbane!!!

It would be interesting if Schache jumps from Brisbane, ends up at Carlton via a draft but decides not to sign a contract. He then goes into the next trade period as a Carlton asset to go where he wants to go before he possibly jumps into the next end of year draft! He would have to use up some of Carlton's cap space surely who at least would be carrying him for trade value for the next year

 

[Furn2]

Why??

I cannot see the legal basis.

The other thing is is the player technically playing for the clubs or the league?

Any contract offering outside completion rules surely would be deemed irrelevant, A contract that cannot be facilitated by a trade within competitive market parameters surely would be deemed irrelevant as not compliant with the rules and governance framework of the competitive league IMO! Otherwise one is effectively saying the player can act as a free agent when clearly he has not been afforded such a privilege as a registered player ordered to comply with the competition framework to facilitate genuine competition within the clubs as a competition for a prize!

It is an interesting one because all players by signing up as registered players to the league obviously have agreed to deemed remuneration amounts as part of the initiation phase for 2 years when signing up. Surely there would need to be a similar consensus reached for stakeholders regarding service and remuneration where players decide to gap the system by jumping off the cliff while not a free-agent into any draft from any league club such as GWS. Obviously remuneration would depend on the service the player can afford any related club and league. It is an interesting one if the player chooses to play a park role at another club/location in a temporary situation. In fact parallels could be drawn with other recent disputes in recent years where players are still within contracts and choose to play for better or worse.

when a player goes in either draft who isn't a 1st or 2nd year player, they nominate contract terms, e.g. 9mil over 9 years. Any clubs that picks them has to meet that contract.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Coupled with the Heeney offer it seems more desperate rather than a well executed plan.

we've been talking with Kelly and his management for years. 9m over 9 years is most likely what we've been told is what is required for him to return home. Boomer has offered to walk his dog every day too.

 

[The Filth Wizard]

I think that any talk about PSD is just posturing by people who have nothing to do with what actually happens. If Kelly accepts Norths' offer, there may be some posturing (public or private) from both sides about trade value - GWS will try to maximise it & Norths will try to minimise it - but in the end a fair trade will happen. (Fair meaning both sides likely to be slightly unhappy at what they received/gave.) Norths won't want to jeopardise any goodwill from a PSD stunt, Kelly will no doubt want a clean exit and fair compensation for GWS, and GWS will need/want to get reasonable value.

I agree with you completely.

The PSD is always the absolute last result but end of the day the last team you want a bad trading experience with is GWS.

I tend to think if Josh wants out the eventual trade will likely favour North but both clubs will work at trying to keep it as even as possible.

 

[Orange Agent]

And half of that 600k that's above 180k would be tax too.

Thats irrelevant, he would get paid that anywhere. The point is the extra money is not what it seems.

 

[Orange Agent]

What am I missing here????

If Kelly leaves GWS because he can and a trade does not take place how does the wooden spoon contender like a Carlton or Freo not pick up Kelly and if they can't how is this not restraint of trade?

This is total jibberish. Surely google could tell you what restraint of trade actually is. Stop pretending to be a lawyer.

 

[Orange Agent]

Every media commentator seems to be running with the line, he will sign with us yet as far as this joint cares nimrods are talking about trades and PSD.

 

[Thetrader15]

For him to walk to Freo or Carlton in the PSD they have to be paying the salary he's asking. Can't see anyone else offering that kind of deal at this stage.

A great reson to remove the psd. If a player doesn't want to sign a new contract offered, they go into the national draft. Then we will see who is interested in picking them up

Pick 1: Nat Fyfe or Andrew McGrath

 

[JG22]

A great reson to remove the psd. If a player doesn't want to sign a new contract offered, they go into the national draft. Then we will see who is interested in picking them up

Pick 1: Nat Fyfe or Andrew McGrath

Great reson

 

[Thetrader15]

Great reson

Got me there...a typo.
10/10

 

[Mr Magic]

when a player goes in either draft who isn't a 1st or 2nd year player, they nominate contract terms, e.g. 9mil over 9 years. Any clubs that picks them has to meet that contract.

Why??? They are not a free agent within the league competition.

A player can nominate all they like as I assume clubs can nominate an offer all they like to.

The price mechanism would be determined based on consensus forming the nexus between competing parties like in any other market not some sense of entitlement anchored to a player!!!

It is just like demand and supply for any other contract for services. Coles can ask for $2.00 for a loaf of bread but if I am not willing to pay for it the bread can stay on the shelf!!!

A player can always leave the league and get a job as an employee for another employer if he or she feels so entitled!!

An employer can always refuse an employee salary the employee believes they are entitled to. The employee can always seek another employer and in this case the player can leave the league and get to apply their services with another employer!

 

[Furn2]

Why??? They are not a free agent within the league competition.

A player can nominate all they like as I assume clubs can nominate an offer all they like to.

The price mechanism would be determined based on consensus forming the nexus between competing parties like in any other market not some sense of entitlement anchored to a player!!!

It is just like demand and supply for any other contract for services. Coles can ask for $2.00 for a loaf of bread but if I am not willing to pay for it the bread can stay on the shelf!!!

A player can always leave the league and get a job as an employee for another employer if he or she feels so entitled!!

An employer can always refuse an employee salary the employee believes they are entitled to. The employee can always seek another employer and in this case the player can leave the league and get to apply their services with another employer!

Its the rules.


its not some complicated legal thing that you need a law degree to understand. Its just the rules. If you don't want to pay the contract you can't pick that player. If no team wants to pay it the player wont get drafted.

 

[bird_man]

Why??? They are not a free agent within the league competition.

A player can nominate all they like as I assume clubs can nominate an offer all they like to.

The price mechanism would be determined based on consensus forming the nexus between competing parties like in any other market not some sense of entitlement anchored to a player!!!

It is just like demand and supply for any other contract for services. Coles can ask for $2.00 for a loaf of bread but if I am not willing to pay for it the bread can stay on the shelf!!!

A player can always leave the league and get a job as an employee for another employer if he or she feels so entitled!!

An employer can always refuse an employee salary the employee believes they are entitled to. The employee can always seek another employer and in this case the player can leave the league and get to apply their services with another employer!

Dude, it is the rules of the PSD. It doesn't matter how many big words you put in your speech, thems the rules

 

[Mr Magic]

Its the rules.


its not some complicated legal thing that you need a law degree to understand. Its just the rules. If you don't want to pay the contract you can't pick that player. If no team wants to pay it the player wont get drafted.

if what you say is true then there is no market for players reflecting competitive bidding between clubs because it is dependent on them accepting a salary contract proposals. This effectively means the player can act as a free agent. It is simply a exercise of clubs meeting player salary requests not clubs competing for playing talent as the competition is vetoed by the will of the player as effectively a free agent.


In this way North are going about it the right way.

What clubs should do in rebuild phase is make a series of million dollar bids for youngsters front loaded, long contracts, the rest can be draftees of little relevance. North would be better off offering a million a year to Scache and Weitering for 10 years and gut there list collecting wooden spoons for the next 5-6 years.

The clubs finish on the bottom, pick elite talent from the draft, keep them via salary after 2 years, as the front loaded players are coming off higher portion of salaries but still under contract via longer contracts.

That basically means no club has a safe way of keeping a player as another club simply offers a player a far higher salary to a player who accepts.

The other thing is if it is based on higher salaries why can some players refuse to play for the higher salary thereby manipulating the allocation of talent across the clubs like Dangerfield accepting only 800K or so at Geelong. In other words if North are offering Kelly more salary why can Kelly refuse this bid if it distorts the equilibrium. In other words a clubs competitive position appears to be more about distortions regarding the whim of players meeting their own expectations so fans are not really watching a competition between clubs but collectives of players pursuing their own goals that could be separate from club or fans desires!!

Another way this could be managed by the AFL in terms of creating a level playing field between clubs in terms of their competition for talent is if North offer Kelly 10 million over 9 years and Kelly refuses 10 million over 9 years North's offer is still taken up of Kelly's portion of GWS's salary cap because that is the supposed market rate for him. That really would put a cat amongst the pigeons and create a dynamic which would aid the reallocation of playing talent amongst the clubs more effectively!!

Otherwise a club could coerce players through manipulation and peer pressure to direct players to say yeah or nah to various contract offers therefore forming a list as a powerhouse that is relationship dependent instead of being independently determined through a price mechanism in a free and fair market which would redistribute playing talent more evenly allowing the primary drivers for premierships to be effort driven with a little bit of luck for injuries etc..!!

The question becomes are fans watching clubs compete for premierships or player cartels play for premierships??

 

[bird_man]

if what you say is true then there is no market for players reflecting competitive bidding between clubs because it is dependent on them accepting a salary contract proposals. This effectively means the player can act as a free agent. It is simply a exercise of clubs meeting player salary requests not clubs competing for playing talent as the competition is vetoed by the will of the player as effectively a free agent.


In this way North are going about it the right way.

What clubs should do in rebuild phase is make a series of million dollar bids for youngsters front loaded, long contracts, the rest can be draftees of little relevance. North would be better off offering a million a year to Scache and Weitering for 10 years and gut there list collecting wooden spoons for the next 5-6 years.

The clubs finish on the bottom, pick elite talent from the draft, keep them via salary after 2 years, as the front loaded players are coming off higher portion of salaries but still under contract via longer contracts.

That basically means no club has a safe way of keeping a player as another club simply offers a player a far higher salary to a player who accepts.

The other thing is if it is based on higher salaries why can some players refuse to play for the higher salary thereby manipulating the allocation of talent across the clubs like Dangerfield accepting only 800K or so at Geelong. In other words if North are offering Kelly more salary why can Kelly refuse this bid if it distorts the equilibrium. In other words a clubs competitive position appears to be more about distortions regarding the whim of players meeting their own expectations so fans are not really watching a competition between clubs but collectives of players pursuing their own goals that could be separate from club or fans desires!!

Another way this could be managed by the AFL in terms of creating a level playing field between clubs in terms of their competition for talent is if North offer Kelly 10 million over 9 years and Kelly refuses 10 million over 9 years North's offer is still taken up of Kelly's portion of GWS's salary cap because that is the supposed market rate for him. That really would put a cat amongst the pigeons and create a dynamic which would aid the reallocation of playing talent amongst the clubs more effectively!!

You must be a hoot at parties

 

[Mr Magic]

You must be a hoot at parties

I don't need drugs or other boosters to get off or escape, like others.

Thats the benefit of a creative mind.

I would rather not be a sheep in NZ, put it that way!!

 

[Toadvine]

I see everyone here is finding out who is the most ignored member of the Richmond board....

 

[Bokonon_]

I agree with you completely.

The PSD is always the absolute last result but end of the day the last team you want a bad trading experience with is GWS.

I tend to think if Josh wants out the eventual trade will likely favour North but both clubs will work at trying to keep it as even as possible.

In past years we we were a trading club, and had to reduce our list. Probably less so now it is normalised.
Agree completely with the rest, what matters is Kelly's wishes, as for Treloar and Marchbank if he wants to go a deal gets done. There'll be posturing and negotiation but both clubs and Kelly lose otherwise.

 

[Nutjob]

What am I missing here????

If Kelly leaves GWS because he can and a trade does not take place how does the wooden spoon contender like a Carlton or Freo not pick up Kelly and if they can't how is this not restraint of trade?

Carlton and freo not wanting to pay 9 mill over 9 years is a restraint of trade?
You talking as if it is loose change


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mr Magic]

Carlton and freo not wanting to pay 9 mill over 9 years is a restraint of trade?
You talking as if it is loose change


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Why would CFC or Freo not trump you? The restraint of trade would be Kelly being allowed to not accept them given Kelly is supposed to not be a free agent which seems to be a contradiction with the rules of the pre-season draft.

The only reason you are supposedly offering Kelly the multi-million contract is presumably because you have little value on your list going forward. If you had a heap of quality players going forward you probably could not afford Kelly at such a high contract!

Freo are the same and Fyfe is now outside their window so whether it is this year, in 2 years or later he will probably move on like Deledio. It is not like Fyfe could stick around like Pavlich and realistically expect premierships at Freo short to mid-term.

CFC on the other hand have Weitering and plenty of young talent coming through. They could easily offload a Murphy, Gibbs or even Kruzeur and load up on Kelly and Schache creating a young player cartel within their club with a specific future window in mind through the use of contracts and relationship building. Their seems to be some commentary in the media Gibbs could easily be facilitated later in the year via a trade to Adelaide from CFC after the 2016 efforts

 

[Pykie]

Why would CFC or Freo not trump you? The restraint of trade would be Kelly being allowed to not accept them given Kelly is supposed to not be a free agent which seems to be a contradiction with the rules of the pre-season draft.

The only reason you are supposedly offering Kelly the multi-million contract is presumably because you have little value on your list going forward. If you had a heap of quality players going forward you probably could not afford Kelly at such a high contract!

Freo are the same and Fyfe is now outside their window so whether it is this year, in 2 years or later he will probably move on like Deledio. It is not like Fyfe could stick around like Pavlich and realistically expect premierships at Freo short to mid-term.

CFC on the other hand have Weitering and plenty of young talent coming through. They could easily offload a Murphy, Gibbs or even Kruzeur and load up on Kelly and Schache creating a young player cartel within their club with a specific future window in mind through the use of contracts and relationship building. Their seems to be some commentary in the media Gibbs could easily be facilitated later in the year via a trade to Adelaide from CFC after the 2016 efforts

Lance Franklin moving to the reigning premiers on an even bigger deal kind of kills that theory.

 

[Mr Magic]

Lance Franklin moving to the reigning premiers on an even bigger deal kind of kills that theory.

I do not think so, and guess what, that contract saga and its effects are still playing out as is another further up north!