North Make Godfather Offer To Kelly

[Pykie]

Not really.

I've long been of the opinion that ruck is far and away the least important position on the ground. Makes sense that this is notionally North's biggest position of depth, whilst you are currently winless. Clubs seem to be fairly reluctant to give up capital for rucks, and as I've said above, now more than ever the league is trending towards playing one genuine ruck, and then having a mobile/undersized forward as a chop out. You can get 80-85% of Goldstein for maybe a third of the cost, and give up far, far less draft capital than North will want for him. North have proven it themselves this year.

Good luck finding another 21 year old that's 208cm and 117kg's.

 

[MotleyLemon]

Good luck finding another 21 year old that's 208cm and 117kg's.

Who cares?

Ruck is still the least valuable position on the ground.

North fans boasted last year about having the best ruck and best tagger in the game in Jacobs.

Not exactly a recipe for success.

 

[TennisPlayerAndy]

Is that why Geelong went and recruited Brad Ottens?

 

[Pykie]

Who cares?

Ruck is still the least valuable position on the ground.

North fans boasted last year about having the best ruck and best tagger in the game in Jacobs.

Not exactly a recipe for success.

In your opinion it is.

When an absolutely dominant ruckman is paired with a good midfield, in the modern age of repeat I50 and defensive structures it's pretty ******* valuable, especially if the ruckman is also marking the ball and kicking goals around the ground.

 

[Pykie]

Is that why Geelong went and recruited Brad Ottens?

Collingwood Jolly, Hawthorn Hale and McEvoy.

The dogs are basically the only side in the last decade without a decent quality ruckman

 

[Thats Wright]

Wow.

Rare breed the Preuss. Would be Geelong's 3rd best player after just 3 games. Very high ceiling, super tough and hard to move. Top 20 could be conservative for Preuss 2020.

 

[MotleyLemon]

Is that why Geelong went and recruited Brad Ottens?

Yeah the game definitely hasn't changed since then.

Never mind the fact that he was recruited as a forward rather than a ruck.

 

[MotleyLemon]

Collingwood Jolly, Hawthorn Hale and McEvoy.

The dogs are basically the only side in the last decade without a decent quality ruckman

Hale and McEvoy were middling rucks on middling contracts who played a specific role in helping the Hawks to premierships.

Dogs, Hawks, Swans as last 5 premiers did not have an above average ruck amongst them.

 

[TennisPlayerAndy]

Hale and McEvoy were middling rucks on middling contracts who played a specific role in helping the Hawks to premierships.

Dogs, Hawks, Swans as last 5 premiers did not have an above average ruck amongst them.

Yeah, Mumford is average....

 

[Thats Wright]

Hale and McEvoy were middling rucks on middling contracts who played a specific role in helping the Hawks to premierships.

Dogs, Hawks, Swans as last 5 premiers did not have an above average ruck amongst them.

Perhaps the coaching and statistic driven 'hit outs to advantage' or soft 'touching up' of the ball has contributed to the decline of ruck importance.

The Preuss has arrived now and not even a Scott brother robot can stop the revolution in rucking the game will soon see.

Geelong's white flag attempts at rucking against Preuss was his second game at 21 years of age. The pussies will be in tears down the track.

 

[MaddAdam]

Refer to my earlier post

But your earlier post was stupid.

The situation between now at 2006 is wildly different. We can afford to "bottom out". We have paid off our debt, we have a proper facility at Arden Street. The AFL owns Etihad now and we're getting a proper stadium deal. Jreez, the AFL pays every team's wages now.

The right thing to do is for you to admit it was a poor post and we can move on.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

But your earlier post was stupid.

The situation between now at 2006 is wildly different. We can afford to "bottom out". We have paid off our debt, we have a proper facility at Arden Street. The AFL owns Etihad now and we're getting a proper stadium deal. Jreez, the AFL pays every team's wages now.

The right thing to do is for you to admit it was a poor post and we can move on.

It's not stupid at all. I said it seems like North are selling the farm list wise because they can't afford to bottom out, something which we heard around the Laidley era. They're potentially hamstringing their ability to build through the draft by going after a "franchise" player at the beginning of their rebuild, one which is going to cost them picks because he's not a free agent. I was making an inference as to why they might be doing that, an inference which is founded in recent history.

North may be travelling ok at the moment but how will they go if they have 3 or 4 years of bottom 4 finishes? Their Tassie deal may save them but it will be a huge hit financially (as it would for any club)

 

[Thats Wright]

It's not stupid at all. I said it seems like North are selling the farm list wise because they can't afford to bottom out, something which we heard around the Laidley era. They're potentially hamstringing their ability to build through the draft by going after a "franchise" player at the beginning of their rebuild, one which is going to cost them picks because he's not a free agent. I was making an inference as to why they might be doing that, an inference which is founded in recent history.

North may be travelling ok at the moment but how will they go if they have 3 or 4 years of bottom 4 finishes? Their Tassie deal may save them but it will be a huge hit financially (as it would for any club)

You're looking at regeneration from the wrong angle.

The Melbourne or Carlton rebuild is a different animal to clubs with a solid culture and in Norths situation, still have a decent amount of talent that's been neglected and chirping at the bit to contribute.

The grab for Kelly is more a reflection of the clubs failure to land any high profile mercenaries in recent years and also the very shaky ground of their mediocre coach (rather than any inability to bottom out).

Once Scott quits there will be pressure on his yes men. The rot of mediocrity and contract based agendas will likely take a more mature coach to eradicate.

Throwing big dollars at Longmire would be a better investment than any current player.

 

[master bate]

What can North expect in return for Goldy? Seems as though Preuss is almost preferred at the moment? Given Preuss was picked up for very little surely decreases Goldy's value?

Supply and demand sets the trade market for a ruckman. For example if Mumford hits the wall and they don't think Lobb can ruck then the Giants need a guy right now then Goldy has value as an early 2nd rounder if not more.

Right now most clubs have a decent number 1. I can't really think of a club who's number 1 option isn't reasonably solid. Jordan Roughead is a very solid player. Nankervis/Hampson at Richmond maybe but they both offer something. Ceglar/McEvoy? Naismith? Witts?

But most clubs back up options are pretty ordinary. So the rise of Preuss isn't really a fair way to judge Goldstein because there's not many clubs who would back in their development of an unknown prospect becoming a quality starter, especially if they were planning to be in contention.

The Hawks trades for Hale and McEvoy in particular, the Pies dealing for Jolly back in the day, there's a few examples of rucks being highly valued if a team needs one.

The Zac Smith, Nankervis, Witts kind of model of trading a 3rd round pick for an out of favour back up who's played a few games and making them your starter might be the move for some teams but if there isn't one of those guys available then trading for Goldy might still be worth it.

 

[mezaire]

I see it as a very smart move from North.

They will bottom out this year and maybe next.
Trade Kelly and 4th rd for Goldy and early 2nd rd (something like that)
Have a top 5 pick this year and next.
Throw one of those picks at another quality mid and if Ahern comes good, they start to look pretty strong.

 

[MaddAdam]

It's not stupid at all. I said it seems like North are selling the farm list wise because they can't afford to bottom out, something which we heard around the Laidley era. They're potentially hamstringing their ability to build through the draft by going after a "franchise" player at the beginning of their rebuild, one which is going to cost them picks because he's not a free agent. I was making an inference as to why they might be doing that, an inference which is founded in recent history.

North may be travelling ok at the moment but how will they go if they have 3 or 4 years of bottom 4 finishes? Their Tassie deal may save them but it will be a huge hit financially (as it would for any club)

Well, history also teaches us that if we do turn crapo, the AFL will pay for us to have a new coach and give us massive bailouts like they did for you.

But you really need to catch up on footy economics - times have changed so much from 2006.

Also, there's very sound logic to the Kelly play.

We're going to get Tarryn Thomas, currently being rated as top ten or top five pick, through the Tassie Academy.

We trade our first rounder and a player (most likely) to GWS for Kelly. We get Thomas through the Academy. I can also very easily see us trading Goldy who would most likely get a pick in the 13 - 20 range.

We also don't need a full rebuild. We have the inside ball winning unit, we have good young rucks, we have a good young key forward, good key defenders, we have talent like Garner and Wood still on the list.

We need some outside class and quick to top that off - hence going all out at Kelly and having Thomas in the pocket.

 

[Mofra]

Who cares?

Ruck is still the least valuable position on the ground.

Does the banning of the 3rd man up rule change your opinion?
We've gone from one of the top clearance sides in 2016 to possibly the worst in 2017 under the combo of Roughy's injury and rule changes

 

[Mofra]

Supply and demand sets the trade market for a ruckman. For example if Mumford hits the wall and they don't think Lobb can ruck then the Giants need a guy right now then Goldy has value as an early 2nd rounder if not more.

GWS have a Flynn/Lobb combo waiting in the wings and salary cap pressure, they're one of the least likely clubs to want Goldy.

 

[MaddAdam]

Does the banning of the 3rd man up rule change your opinion?
We've gone from one of the top clearance sides in 2016 to possibly the worst in 2017 under the combo of Roughy's injury and rule changes

I fully expect that your mids will be roving to THE MINOTAUR and Goldy on Friday night.

I also fully expect that in keeping with the occasion, we'll get crucified by the umpires too.

 

[MaddAdam]

GWS have a Flynn/Lobb combo waiting in the wings and salary cap pressure, they're one of the least likely clubs to want Goldy.

I reckon you guys would be right at the top of the list of clubs that would. Especially now that, as you say, Bont can't come up from the blind spot and knee the ruckman in the kidneys and help out Roughead.

 

[Scotland]

Trade Kelly and 4th rd for Goldy and early 2nd rd (something like that)

GWS say: 'No deal!'

 

[Thats Wright]

Does the banning of the 3rd man up rule change your opinion?
We've gone from one of the top clearance sides in 2016 to possibly the worst in 2017 under the combo of Roughy's injury and rule changes

Has to be a factor.

The Hawks are suffering also without the smart midfielder weighted stoppages.

The era of supercoach and data analysis driven ruckwork/tap work was getting tiresome. Role playing at its most pathetic and limiting.

Ruckmen were glorified extension ladders and the reward/glory for quality rucking was tapping it down the throat of a running Danger type over actual goals achieved. Madness that limits a ruckman to nothing more than a midfield assistant rather than setting the tone and driving momentum.

Hopefully this rucking nonsense of hit outs to advantage over all else will be replaced by the use of the fist and utilizing numbers and speed off half forward/wing. Playing the percentages of ground gained and forward momentum rather than using one of your 'biggest' assets in attempting to crack the code of a perceived offside rule that doesn't actually exist.

The whole point of third man up was to belt the ball forward of the contest and punish defenders for not playing in front or zoning off. Adam Simpson was a master of it.

The ruckman and coaches now need to incorporate the missing third man up release of pressure and tone setting into the ruckwork.

Luckily Preuss and North's multitude of half forwards are in a good position to incorporate a 70-30 forward press, I mean forward punch. Did forward press retire? I've never had such a long run without suspension.

But yea, the bullshit waste of energy we see of 2 giants licking armpits definitely needs to move into a more aggressive and adventurous direction now they are under the spotlight of calling their shots.

There's no reason why the Gawn's and Preuss' shouldn't escape their shackles of being slaves to overpaid midfielders. Bypass the flogs

 

[master bate]

GWS have a Flynn/Lobb combo waiting in the wings and salary cap pressure, they're one of the least likely clubs to want Goldy.

They'll get North to pay his contract as they did with Deledio and Shaw.

Either way, just an example. Bulldogs would be another one. If Naismith falters the Swans could make a move. It's hard to predict the supply and demand at this stage of the year. My main point was saying that Preuss' rise doesn't change the fact that other clubs may well want Goldy and pay a premium for him because it's still very hard to develop young rucks and having a competent ruck still matters in finals. The clubs that are best at it (Sydney) do it by stockpiling plenty on the list so they have options.

 

[The Filth Wizard]

They'll get North to pay his contract as they did with Deledio and Shaw.

Our salary cap as it stands suggests we'd probably be quite amenable to this as long as the rest of the trade wasn't too crippling.

Either way, just an example. Bulldogs would be another one. If Naismith falters the Swans could make a move. It's hard to predict the supply and demand at this stage of the year. My main point was saying that Preuss' rise doesn't change the fact that other clubs may well want Goldy and pay a premium for him because it's still very hard to develop young rucks and having a competent ruck still matters in finals. The clubs that are best at it (Sydney) do it by stockpiling plenty on the list so they have options.

Not sure on the next wave of rucks for Fremantle but with Sandi winding down and their key forward stocks they could quite easily welcome Goldstein into their ranks and I assume will have picks around the mark.

I don't think Hawthorn would sniff either but their draft position suggests trading isn't optimal for them this season.

Essendon, Carlton (reliant on Kruezer), St Kilda (depending on whether they want to stick with Longer/think Hickey would be a back up to Goldstein) and Gold Coast (Witts looks solid though) may be interested but after that I think everybody else is set.

 

[Handsome.B.Wonderful]

We're going to get Tarryn Thomas, currently being rated as top ten or top five pick, through the Tassie Academy.

We trade our first rounder and a player (most likely) to GWS for Kelly. We get Thomas through the Academy. I can also very easily see us trading Goldy who would most likely get a pick in the 13 - 20 range.

We also don't need a full rebuild. We have the inside ball winning unit, we have good young rucks, we have a good young key forward, good key defenders, we have talent like Garner and Wood still on the list.

We need some outside class and quick to top that off - hence going all out at Kelly and having Thomas in the pocket.

North are also hopeful they can pick up Nick Blakey as a father/son in 2018, he is currently a top 3 prospect, Thomas sits around pick 5 according to those in the know.

So there is absolutely no way they will be trading future picks with the possibility of 20% discounts on two top 5 players in 2018. On the contrary, they will be looking to bolster their draft with extra 2nd rounders if possible.