Analysis The Matt Taberner effect

[wayToGo_]

Your list of guys who could be our 2nd ruck isn't as impressive as you might think. Every chance Apeness and Uber will be delisted. Cox isn't tall enough, and is more of a Key Defender than a ruck/forward anyway. Darcy will be our #1 ruck. It's Tabs or Strnadica who will most likely play that role going forward unless we draft someone else.

Cox was playing as our second ruck yesterday and did extraordinarily well imo (he has a great leap). That kick of his in the 4th qtr was amazing - best kick from one of our talls in recent memory. Some of his marking was sensational (he had 3 contested marks - more than Tabs averages ) - he is in his first year and produces that!!! I had him pencilled in as a key defender as well but he changed my mind yesterday and now think he can play either end. Apeness still has a year to go on his contract so won't be delisted - he hasn't been a world beater either in his AFL performances but he can and does crash packs, contest and bring the ball to ground. Ueber shouldn't be delisted for the same reason Tabs shouldn't be - we need KPF stocks, even if they just become depth in the long run. Everyone should get opportunities during a rebuild - just because Tabs is older or taller shouldn't mean he gets preferenced. Plenty of KPPs step up and surpass existing KPP stocks after one or two years development.

 

[ydraw]

Cox was playing as our second ruck yesterday and did extraordinarily well imo

He was up against 2 non-ruckmen though. Geelong don't have a dedicated ruckman.

Taberner did very well in his first 2 games in the ruck then got absolutely flogged by Grundy. Cox isn't tall enough to compete against real ruckmen. I am not saying he is no good, just that he won't be playing as a ruckman much except in emergencies.

 

[ydraw]

Ueber shouldn't be delisted for the same reason Tabs shouldn't be - we need KPF stocks, even if they just become depth in the long run.

Ueber is going to be delisted because he's been injured since the day we drafted him. Same goes for Apeness. The decision will be made on medical diagnosis rather than potential.

 

[wayToGo_]

He was up against 2 non-ruckmen though. Geelong don't have a dedicated ruckman.

Taberner did very well in his first 2 games in the ruck then got absolutely flogged by Grundy. Cox isn't tall enough to compete against real ruckmen. I am not saying he is no good, just that he won't be playing as a ruckman much except in emergencies.

So Geelong can play two not real ruckman and can be top 4 team but we have to play two genuine ruckman to be competitive? No question Cox shouldn't be a primary ruck but I think plenty of teams are learning you don't need another big lurch as your backup.

 

[ydraw]

So Geelong can play two not real ruckman and can be top 4 team but we have to play two genuine ruckman to be competitive? No question Cox shouldn't be a primary ruck but I think plenty of teams are learning you don't need another big lurch as your backup.

I don't think anyone believes we have to play 2 genuine ruckmen to be competitive. But the guys you do play have to be taller than 6'3/6'4" which is what Cox is. You could be a 6'4" ruckman in 1991 but not so much now.

Pretty much anyone from any team who plays 2nd ruck regularly is 6'6" or taller, the only exception I can think of is Paddy Ryder.

 

[samFFC]

Taberner has had 5 years on the list and turns 25 next July and at 25 he should be taking control of games which is something he has rarely done even at Peel. He won't be delisted this year but next season will be his defining season.

Taberner has been listed in best 4-5 players in at least half of the games he's played for Peel this season.

 

[meima]

Taberner has been listed in best 4-5 players in at least half of the games he's played for Peel this season.

If you said like that , then his output of goal should be better than kietal who play defender for west Perth for two season before moving to forward this year. He kick more goal and behind than Tab . I had no problems Tab playing AFL,
As his development year for peel must come to end this year .
Last year smith and uebergang combo is so good to watch before both get injured during peel match . Tab due to him playing so many AFL game last year that he is not eligible for wafl final series .

 

[wayToGo_]

I don't think anyone believes we have to play 2 genuine ruckmen to be competitive. But the guys you do play have to be taller than 6'3/6'4" which is what Cox is. You could be a 6'4" ruckman in 1991 but not so much now.

Pretty much anyone from any team who plays 2nd ruck regularly is 6'6" or taller, the only exception I can think of is Paddy Ryder.

People on football forums get so obsessed by height. Have you watched Marlion Pickett ruck for Souths? He's something like 187cm but because he has an extraordinary leap he can still be competitive enough in the ruck. It's the same with marking. Fyfe (at full strength) is clearly our best contested mark but he's only 190cm. If you can get a tall player that has all the attributes of someone smaller then it is a massive win. But I just don't get picking someone just because they are tall - because what's a 4cm height difference when the shorter player can actually jump? It's what is frustrating me the most with McCarthy. in his draft year he looked like a key forward version of Fyfe with his aerial abilities but now it looks like he's playing with lead weights in his shoes. Unfortunately our list limits what we can do - we either play a short skillful team, or a tall clunky team - we aren't blessed with a bunch of players who are very tall, skillful and smart footballers.

 

[DudleyDocker]

Taberner has been listed in best 4-5 players in at least half of the games he's played for Peel this season.

No offense samFFC, and not wanting to come across as a Taberner basher, but I get along to most Peel games and I haven't seen him tear a game apart this year - which you would expect from a 197cm forward with 5 - 6 AFL preseasons under his belt.

Someone commented in the Peel game day thread that Tabs doesn't come into his own until the second half of games and this is pretty accurate. From memory he had 5 possessions and no goals at half time (may not be exact, but is indicative).

The big benefit of all those AFL preseasons is that he has an AFL sized tank, and as the game wears on he is still able to cover the ground where his WAFL opponent might have his tongue hanging out. This does not make Taberner a good player, it makes him a fit player - or if you like an "athlete".

He is neither strong enough in the air not agile enough on the ground to win one-on-one contests early in a game when his opponent is competing strongly, and at AFL level he is not able to run his opponents off their feet, so never gets those easy possessions late in a game. There have been games where he has played well, but unfortunately there have been far too many where he has been a liability. He needs to close the gap between his best and worst to the point that even when he is not playing at his best he is still competitive and plays his part.

I genuinely hope he achieves that, and I would be happy to see him playing for us again - I just don't think he answers any of our current questions.

 

[ydraw]

People on football forums get so obsessed by height. Have you watched Marlion Pickett ruck for Souths? He's something like 187cm but because he has an extraordinary leap he can still be competitive enough in the ruck. It's the same with marking. Fyfe (at full strength) is clearly our best contested mark but he's only 190cm. If you can get a tall player that has all the attributes of someone smaller then it is a massive win. But I just don't get picking someone just because they are tall - because what's a 4cm height difference when the shorter player can actually jump? It's what is frustrating me the most with McCarthy. in his draft year he looked like a key forward version of Fyfe with his aerial abilities but now it looks like he's playing with lead weights in his shoes. Unfortunately our list limits what we can do - we either play a short skillful team, or a tall clunky team - we aren't blessed with a bunch of players who are very tall, skillful and smart footballers.

You cant actually jump in most ruck contests though. Only centre bounces.

 

[meima]

You cant actually jump in most ruck contests though. Only centre bounces.

Are you sure ? You can rubbish me that I don't know about AFL , but in my opinion WTG and DD watched Tab live or on TV more than you and know more than you in term of AFL .

 

[wayToGo_]

Are you sure ? You can rubbish me that I don't know about AFL , but in my opinion WTG and DD watched Tab live or on TV more than you and know more than you in term of AFL .

Thanks meima but we don't need to go down that path. ydraw has been pretty civil in this conversation, made some good points and is entitled to his opinions just as much as anyone else. Dudley, Salim, you and I have all watched a fair bit of Tabs (and all our youngsters) at Peel and even we don't all share the exact same opinions of all of them. I know all of us would love Tabs to show what he did in that Essendon game every single time he plays - some of us are just more hopeful than others. Some think he hasn't taken his opportunities whilst others think he hasn't been given enough opportunities. It's all just opinions, I just didn't want this to be another "He's a spud" vs "Great White Hope" conversation.

 

[meima]

Thanks meima but we don't need to go down that path. ydraw has been pretty civil in this conversation, made some good points and is entitled to his opinions just as much as anyone else. Dudley, Salim, you and I have all watched a fair bit of Tabs (and all our youngsters) at Peel and even we don't all share the exact same opinions of all of them. I know all of us would love Tabs to show what he did in that Essendon game every single time he plays - some of us are just more hopeful than others. Some think he hasn't taken his opportunities whilst others think he hasn't been given enough opportunities. It's all just opinions, I just didn't want this to be another "He's a spud" vs "Great White Hope" conversation.

Tab need to be given the chance to play AFL and I can understand ydraw frustration with Ross and the selection committee that he be push around. How hard is it to play Tab instead of kersten . But this conversation not going anyway if Tab is not given his opportunity. Put him in for the rest of the season and see what he can do. Time to be fair drop one of Cam Mac and Kersten as both had not performing up to the standard of AFL recently . Also don't play Griffin if Tab play . This combo win losses ratio is bad even in Wafl and is going to continue . At least Sandi and Tab combo win against essendon ,tiger and Carlton .

 

[wayToGo_]

Tab need to be given the chance to play AFL and I can understand ydraw frustration with Ross and the selection committee that he be push around. How hard is it to play Tab instead of kersten . But this conversation not going anyway if Tab is not given his opportunity. Put him in for the rest of the season and see what he can do. Time to be fair drop one of Cam Mac and Kersten as both had not performing up to the standard of AFL recently . Also don't play Griffin if Tab play .

Put them all at Peel next week and make it clear all three haven't been good enough lately but there are spots available for them to secure in Freo's B22. If that doesn't motivate them all to play absolute crackers in the WAFL, nothing will. But it would also send a message to perform once in the Freo side or be dropped. Would rather play unbalanced than make selection integrity a joke. None of them deserve to be B22 currently.

 

[salim malik]

Taberner has been listed in best 4-5 players in at least half of the games he's played for Peel this season.

I am a regular Peel goer and Tabs has never torn apart a Peel game , he has been good on occasions and yes he has figured in the bests but with his build and AFL conditioning he should be dominating. The much maligned Zac Clark when he has gone back to Peel has dominated. I'm not knocking Tabs he was a spec rookie pick and has exceeded expectations but he is not our KPF going forward. He is a depth player.

 

[meima]

I am a regular Peel goer and Tabs has never torn apart a Peel game , he has been good on occasions and yes he has figured in the bests but with his build and AFL conditioning he should be dominating. The much maligned Zac Clark when he has gone back to Peel has dominated. I'm not knocking Tabs he was a spec rookie pick and has exceeded expectations but he is not our KPF going forward. He is a depth player.

Is he been too long with freo ? As a depth player how many year you need to give before you turn to a younger generation for their development .since new toy is not allow in best 22 , I would love some new toy for peel.

 

[samFFC]

I am a regular Peel goer and Tabs has never torn apart a Peel game , he has been good on occasions and yes he has figured in the bests but with his build and AFL conditioning he should be dominating. The much maligned Zac Clark when he has gone back to Peel has dominated. I'm not knocking Tabs he was a spec rookie pick and has exceeded expectations but he is not our KPF going forward. He is a depth player.

No offense samFFC, and not wanting to come across as a Taberner basher, but I get along to most Peel games and I haven't seen him tear a game apart this year - which you would expect from a 197cm forward with 5 - 6 AFL preseasons under his belt.

Someone commented in the Peel game day thread that Tabs doesn't come into his own until the second half of games and this is pretty accurate. From memory he had 5 possessions and no goals at half time (may not be exact, but is indicative).

The big benefit of all those AFL preseasons is that he has an AFL sized tank, and as the game wears on he is still able to cover the ground where his WAFL opponent might have his tongue hanging out. This does not make Taberner a good player, it makes him a fit player - or if you like an "athlete".

He is neither strong enough in the air not agile enough on the ground to win one-on-one contests early in a game when his opponent is competing strongly, and at AFL level he is not able to run his opponents off their feet, so never gets those easy possessions late in a game. There have been games where he has played well, but unfortunately there have been far too many where he has been a liability. He needs to close the gap between his best and worst to the point that even when he is not playing at his best he is still competitive and plays his part.

I genuinely hope he achieves that, and I would be happy to see him playing for us again - I just don't think he answers any of our current questions.

Thanks for the perspectives. As said I don't catch much of the PT action so am not too sure how he is travelling there.

 

[StingBitten]

I have a sneaking, unhappy feeling that Taberner could be let go this year. McCarthy's here for the long-term, Apeness is still contracted and they'll persevere with Kersten for a while longer I think.

Taberner's been in and out of the side and is typically the first be dropped after a poor performance (in comparison to a number of others). If he doesn't get another lifeline his time here is done - the club just aren't willing to have 4 forwards who aren't bonafide. They're most confident in McCarthy but I think they know they need to be looking for the next Pavlich to back him up.

Poor Taberner probably will never be that, but he does provide a lot more than people here give him credit for. I know I've made Kersten my buddy this year but I think Tabs offered more to us in the long-term - if they'd just give him a run of more then half a dozen games to prove his worth.

For next year's draft I don't think there's any way the club are willing to still have those 4 on the list (in addition to Cox and Strnadica) - he needs to impact the scoreboard immediately at WAFL and get a solid run here for the rest of the year. Will they do it? I don't know - but this club can get a little weird when it comes to KPP's...

 

[ydraw]

Are you sure ? You can rubbish me that I don't know about AFL , but in my opinion WTG and DD watched Tab live or on TV more than you and know more than you in term of AFL .

How does 187cm Marlon Pickett go at boundary throw ins?

Having a nice leap is fine for centre bounces but most ruck contests are wrestles that are decided by strength and reach.

The thing with being tall is that it isn't really about how high your head is, it's about how high your reach is. That's why being 6'4" is such a disadvantage because a bloke who is 6'6" has almost 10cm greater reach because taller people have longer arms.

 

[meima]

How does 187 Marlon Pickett go at boundary throw ins?

Having a nice leap is fine for centre bounces but most ruck contests are wrestles that are decided by strength and reach.

The thing with being tall is that it isn't really about how high your head is, it's about how high your reach is. That's why being 6'4" is such a disadvantage because a bloke who is 6'6" has almost 10cm greater reach because taller people have longer arms.

Then tell me how Melbourne win game when max gawn and Spencer not around? Tom McDonald and Petersen Is their ruckmen . when WTG said Mario Pickett got good leap what he mean if I not mistaken is Pickett as south freo second Ruckmen do a reasonable job , just as Tab with Sandi or griffin as second Ruckmen) .

 

[ydraw]

We've won games with Zac Dawson as our ruckman, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's a good long term option. If the only bloke you've got to fill in is 6'4" then obviously that's what you go with. But that's not a long term solution to the 2nd ruck position. If you're here to say that you think Cox is going to be a forward/ruck then I'm here to tell you why he's not.

Cox is most likely going to play as a KPD for us. He's not going to be playing in the ruck unless he grows another 5cm.

 

[meima]

We've won games with Zac Dawson as our ruckman, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's a good long term option. If the only bloke you've got to fill in is 6'4" then obviously that's what you go with. But that's not a long term solution to the 2nd ruck position. If you're here to say that you think Cox is going to be a forward/ruck then I'm here to tell you why he's not.

Cox is most likely going to play as a KPD for us. He's not going to be playing in the ruck unless he grows another 5cm.

Cox is not mean to be second ruck , but in a rebuild you need to explore option . Tab is an option but he is not a long term solution either . I am not really confident with cam Mac tab and Cox combination.

Cox is roughly the same height as cam Petersen and tom McDonald's. If injury strike at least you can go with Tab and Cox combo or Alex Pearce and Cox combo .

 

[wayToGo_]

Cox is most likely going to play as a KPD for us. He's not going to be playing in the ruck unless he grows another 5cm.

I know you'll find some convenient excuse why this is the case but Cox's rucking stats yesterday are actually better than Taberner's have been...

Cox had 9 hit outs, 22 disposals, and 8 marks including 3 contested marks yesterday in his 2nd ever AFL game and first as a backup ruck/fwd.

Tabs (in his 5 games this season as a fwd/ruck) has averaged 5.6 hit outs, 9.8 disposals, and 4 marks including 2.2 contested.

I know Cox wasn't up against a "real" ruckman but I don't recall Taberner being up against a "real" ruckman either. Do I think Cox is a better ruck than Tabs? No. Do I think Cox's performance (as just a first year KPP) proves that Tabs deserved to be dropped back to WAFL. Yes. Is it unfair that Kersten is still playing despite similarly poor performances? Yes.

 

[ydraw]

I know you'll find some convenient excuse why this is the case but Cox's rucking stats yesterday are actually better than Taberner's have been...

Cox had 9 hit outs, 22 disposals, and 8 marks including 3 contested marks yesterday in his 2nd ever AFL game and first as a backup ruck/fwd.

Tabs (in his 5 games this season as a fwd/ruck) has averaged 5.6 hit outs, 9.8 disposals, and 4 marks including 2.2 contested.

I know Cox wasn't up against a "real" ruckman but I don't recall Taberner being up against a "real" ruckman either. Do I think Cox is a better ruck than Tabs? No. Do I think Cox's performance (as just a first year KPP) proves that Tabs deserved to be dropped back to WAFL. Yes. Is it unfair that Kersten is still playing despite similarly poor performances? Yes.

I've got no problem with Cox's performance. I just don't think he's in the running to be our backup ruckman going forward.

 

[Tbonefreo]

I know you'll find some convenient excuse why this is the case but Cox's rucking stats yesterday are actually better than Taberner's have been...

Cox had 9 hit outs, 22 disposals, and 8 marks including 3 contested marks yesterday in his 2nd ever AFL game and first as a backup ruck/fwd.

Tabs (in his 5 games this season as a fwd/ruck) has averaged 5.6 hit outs, 9.8 disposals, and 4 marks including 2.2 contested.

I know Cox wasn't up against a "real" ruckman but I don't recall Taberner being up against a "real" ruckman either. Do I think Cox is a better ruck than Tabs? No. Do I think Cox's performance (as just a first year KPP) proves that Tabs deserved to be dropped back to WAFL. Yes. Is it unfair that Kersten is still playing despite similarly poor performances? Yes.

Those are nice stats for a 2nd gamer