Is Ross Lyon averse to risk?

[blue shark]

He has a contract, the club have a four year plan so he is not going anywhere, unless we fall of a cliff. I'd rather the club have a contingency plan,
have a coach in waiting to take over the reins, like Melbourne.
Chase the next best talent off the field, Hodge has the brains, legacy to inspire the next generation, someone like him, would be a coup, just like
the Lyon masterstroke.
A commander is only as good as his generals, we lead the way in training facilities, why not in the coaching box?

 

[meima]

He has a contract, the club have a four year plan so he is not going anywhere, unless we fall of a cliff. I'd rather the club have a contingency plan,
have a coach in waiting to take over the reins, like Melbourne.
Chase the next best talent off the field, Hodge has the brains, legacy to inspire the next generation, someone like him, would be a coup, just like
the Lyon masterstroke.
A commander is only as good as his generals, we lead the way in training facilities, why not in the coaching box?

You are asking for a backlash from Ross supporter , people already want hale and guerra out .As for me I really don't mind Hodge Vs Mitchell in the west as assistant coach .

 

[blue shark]

You are asking for a backlash from Ross supporter , people already want hale and guerra out .As for me I really don't mind Hodge Vs Mitchell in the west as assistant coach .

Ten years for a senior coach is enough time before things start to get stale. Unless that coach brings ultimate success,
changes the game.

 

[wehavethepassion]

I think by putting a time limit on the rebuild which coincides with his contract extension ie 4 yrs has been disconcerting. The rebuild started last year once Johnno, Fyfe & Sandi went down and the club put a line thru De Boer, Mzungu, C.Pearce etc. The likes of Weller, Blakely Langdon , tucker, Collins , Tabener all got a lot of game time. so we are into our second year but he erred by not going for youth from Rd 1. he mistakenly thought that with Fyfe, Sandi and Johnno back he might be a sneaky for 7th or 8th. after Rd 2 the combination of youth and experience did get them 6 wins out of seven.

The side V geelong with the addition of Fyfe, Sandi, Langdon & Balic (out Kersten, Suban, Sheridan & Spurr) should be played win or lose till end of season.

 

[Nodgey]

"You play your way in and play yourself out."

While this is a pithy statement that on the surface makes some sense, it can be detrimental. In early 2015 when we were careering along undefeated, no-one was effectively "playing themselves out" - after all, why change a winning formula. Yet there were (young) blokes at Peel in excellent form not rewarded by being given an opportunity to "play their way in".

This IMHO was a flaw of Ross and the selection committee which by and large has been rectified in 2017.

 

[ydraw]

He has a contract, the club have a four year plan so he is not going anywhere, unless we fall of a cliff.

We already have fallen off a cliff

We went from a prelim to what is looking like 2 consecutive bottom 3 finishes.

 

[ydraw]

I think by putting a time limit on the rebuild which coincides with his contract extension ie 4 yrs has been disconcerting. The rebuild started last year once Johnno, Fyfe & Sandi went down

That's when the rebuild *should* have started. In reality it only started round 3 this year.

The likes of Weller, Blakely Langdon , tucker, Collins , Tabener all got a lot of game time.

We were forced to pick them because we literally had 25-27 fit players for most of last season. The team we selected in rounds 1 and 2 this year showed pretty unequivocally that the coach and rest of the club brass didn't consider us to be in a rebuild until we got spanked by port in round 2.

 

[ydraw]

"You play your way in and play yourself out."

While this is a pithy statement that on the surface makes some sense, it can be detrimental. In early 2015 when we were careering along undefeated, no-one was effectively "playing themselves out" - after all, why change a winning formula. Yet there were (young) blokes at Peel in excellent form not rewarded by being given an opportunity to "play their way in".

This IMHO was a flaw of Ross and the selection committee which by and large has been rectified in 2017.

Josh Simpson was the epitome of "play your way in" when he dominated the 1 quarter he was given as a sub. He was then dropped the following week for Mayne (returning from injury, still injured), who never once played in the reserves in his entire career at Fremantle despite spending 2 years trying to play his way out of the team.

Mayne lasted 3 games at his new club before being dropped.

Lyon's "play your way in" mantra" was and is absolute horseshit, he's never even tried to pick people on form before this year. He just chose the player most suited towards the role he wanted.

 

[wehavethepassion]

Josh Simpson was the epitome of "play your way in" when he dominated the 1 quarter he was given as a sub. He was then dropped the following week for Mayne (returning from injury, still injured), who never once played in the reserves in his entire career at Fremantle despite spending 2 years trying to play his way out of the team.

Mayne lasted 3 games at his new club before being dropped.

Lyon's "play your way in" mantra" was and is absolute horseshit, he's never even tried to pick people on form before this year. He just chose the player most suited towards the role he wanted.

Yes.

 

[FreoMonocle]

I couldn't give a stuff about this season. We are nowhere near it but in a situation like that I would have preferred if he tried to be a bit more attacking and see what the outcome was. If we lose, so be it but at least we find out something about ourselves. Maybe something we can work on. Now all we know is no more than what we already know; our defence can't stand up.

Geelong scored 74 points. It wasn't our defence that lost the game, it was lost up forward.

 

[ydraw]

Geelong scored 74 points. It wasn't our defence that lost the game, it was lost up forward.

Geelong did miss about 8 easy shots though. They could easily have scored 100 if they kicked straighter.

 

[masai]

Too many negative nellies here, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Lyon is slowly rotating the "oldies" out and "whippersnappers" in. This time last year, Dawson & D. Pearce were glued in the senior team, now gone and Blakely, Weller & Tucker starting to thrive.

Change is occurring, you have to do blending of players, you can't throw in raw players. Peel is serving its role.

 

[FreoMonocle]

Geelong did miss about 8 easy shots though. They could easily have scored 100 if they kicked straighter.

Geelong could have kicked straighter. Part of that was conditions on the day, a bit blustery. Another part of that was just yips and/or footy gods, but fair credit to the defenders, part of Geelongs accuracy woes was from feeling under pressure.

That the ball goes to our defence because of issue further up the ground, isn't entirely our defenders fault is it? If the ball comes in to defence often enough, there comes a point where the opposition should kick a winning score unless there is a perfect defence (and there is no such thing).

2nd quarter stuffed with the cat's mindset, the beauty of scoreboard pressure. That we kicked 3 goals in the last half just gifted them some respite and a chance to get back in to the game.

 

[Nightrain]

Geelong scored 74 points. It wasn't our defence that lost the game, it was lost up forward.

Marking up their loose man in defence would have allowed us to determine that with confidence. Brian Lake would have been having fond memories of the '13 grand final if he saw the way we were picking out Geelong's spare defender with our F50 entries. That is, when we weren't kicking scrubbers into the arc.

 

[Outshined]

We already have fallen off a cliff

We went from a prelim to what is looking like 2 consecutive bottom 3 finishes.

We fell off the cliff last year. Given we've already won 2 more games this season than last, I'd say it's a fair assumption we've started to make our way back up.

 

[FreoMonocle]

Marking up their loose man in defence would have allowed us to determine that with confidence. Brian Lake would have been having fond memories of the '13 grand final if he saw the way we were picking out Geelong's spare defender with our F50 entries. That is, when we weren't kicking scrubbers into the arc.

We must have practiced kicking to Harry Taylor for the last month to do it so precisely

 

[scon]

As for stifling youth, I don't see Blakely, Weller or Langdon as looking stifled in their development. They served maybe a slightly longer apprenticeship than some may have liked but boy do they look polished now. Or for that matter Walters who had not established himself in the team before Ross arrived.

They undoubtedly did a longer apprenticeship than some liked but listening to Blakely describe how he feels it helped round out his game and make him a much more complete and confident footballer,alongside the development of the other two you mention,and the fact that Connor's just signed up for the rebuild and will likely commit to the club for his career,suggest another aspect to this supposed risk aversion.
Maybe the risk he's averse to is the risk the talented youngsters won't reach full potential,with as complete a set of skills as they're capable of if they're not developed judiciously.That they will not feel they are in the best learning environment with the most mature and focused footy education and future ahead of them and with a vision and strategy that they can commit their professional careers to.
Avert that sort of risk and you're paving the way to develop and retain your young talent and give your list and club best chance of actualising its potential and therefore chances for long term stability and success.
As you say they certainly don't appear stifled and are playing with a maturity and polish beyond their years.The creativity,penetration and hurt factor in Blakely's kicking in particular has just skyrocketed.
That said I don't mind a bit of playing the percentages.

 

[DudleyDocker]

They undoubtedly did a longer apprenticeship than some liked but listening to Blakely describe how he feels it helped round out his game and make him a much more complete and confident footballer,alongside the development of the other two you mention,and the fact that Connor's just signed up for the rebuild and will likely commit to the club for his career,suggest another aspect to this supposed risk aversion.
Maybe the risk he's averse to is the risk the talented youngsters won't reach full potential,with as complete a set of skills as they're capable of if they're not developed judiciously.That they will not feel they are in the best learning environment with the most mature and focused footy education and future ahead of them and with a vision and strategy that they can commit their professional careers to.
Avert that sort of risk and you're paving the way to develop and retain your young talent and give your list and club best chance of actualising its potential and therefore chances for long term stability and success.
As you say they certainly don't appear stifled and are playing with a maturity and polish beyond their years.The creativity,penetration and hurt factor in Blakely's kicking in particular has just skyrocketed.
That said I don't mind a bit of playing the percentages.

Ignored this one, it does not fit the narrative. Ross doesn't play youth because he is risk averse and plays favourites, not because he wants to build a better team. Sheesh, get with the agenda scon!

 

[Banker]

Ross Lyon is the next Mick Malthouse of coaches.

Eventually he will win a flag if given enough games but he will fail more often than not. Anyone with a brain could see bringing Ballas back was a sign he was desperate to make finals this year. Sure Ballas played well but the spud ultimately cost us momentum in the end with his greedy kick for goal.

 

[Outshined]

Ross Lyon is the next Mick Malthouse of coaches.

Eventually he will win a flag if given enough games but he will fail more often than not. Anyone with a brain could see bringing Ballas back was a sign he was desperate to make finals this year. Sure Ballas played well but the spud ultimately cost us momentum in the end with his greedy kick for goal.

Exactly this.

Bringing in Ballantyne when we had so many other small-forward options to chose from languishing at Peel was a disgrace. Not sure why he's letting that young talented KPF Dawson rot in the 2s either.

Why haven't we sacked this guy yet?

 

[estibador]

Ross Lyon is the next Mick Malthouse of coaches.

Eventually he will win a flag if given enough games but he will fail more often than not.

Every coach fails more often than not, even Clarkson.

Not every coach is capable of winning one though, which is why I'm happy to stick with Lyon during the rebuild and give him another shot - he's proven capable of getting teams contending, which is more than you can say for most coaches.

So much luck involved in footy when you think about it. Even besides Lyon's well publicised bad luck with the bounce of the ball and the inaccuracy of his charges, there's the issue of timing. He's been unfortunate to run into the two greatest teams of this generation and pushed them both down to the wire. Imagine his 2009 Saints in this season instead - they'd finish 5 games clear on top and likely cruise to a premiership win.

 

[salim malik]

There is a rumour that the club is looking at extending his contract beyond the four years so the Lyon haters might need to look at a hair transplant in the next few years.

 

[yoong]

Here's my take.
Playing a young team that is being pounded by their opponent every week is a bad way to develop young players. See how long it takes Melbourne to dig themselves out despite a talented list. Or Brisbane. The best youth will not want to stick around a losing team. Not to mention star players will go as well.

The tricky bit is to find the happy middle, with enough senior players to guide and protect our young players while they develop, while playing as many youth as possible. That's probably why MJ and Spurr is still in the team. Ballantyne and Suban injected a lot of battle hardness into the team this week, which appears to be what was lacking. We were running just as hard before the bye, but this week the running created the intensity that caused geelong to turn the ball over.

Players develop way better in a winning culture, or at least in one where they have a decent chance of winning every week.

 

[tonygeeks]

Marking up their loose man in defence would have allowed us to determine that with confidence. Brian Lake would have been having fond memories of the '13 grand final if he saw the way we were picking out Geelong's spare defender with our F50 entries. That is, when we weren't kicking scrubbers into the arc.

I prefer scrubbers into the arc myself , scrounger goals are our forte


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[Fat Nyfe]

Its his blind spot and the main thing that keeps him from being a great coach as opposed to a very good one.
The very best leaders know when to take a risk.
Ross calls it loyalty and I expect thats part of what gets the players to buy in but IMO there is no disputing that he backs in incumbent players beyond the point of what is reasonable at times.

The most notable examples:
Picking Chris Mayne over and over again and not even trying to see what Duffy or someone else might have been able to bring to the role. We've seen what happens at Collingwood where Mayne is part of a squad where he is selected on results. In the case of a Mayne I believe Lyon actually does the player a disservice not just the team by not dropping them when the players themselves might actually benefit from being out of the spotlight and with the pressure taken off to work on their game and confidence.

Refusing to bring in Blakely or Weller or Langdon in 2015 when blind Freddy could see the team dynamics were completely screwed.
Please note that I'm not saying that playing any or all of those players would have won us a flag I'm saying that SOMETHING, anything needed to be tried to shake things up. It was worth the gamble when were coasting toward finals to try changing the dynamics.

Starting out this year with the most unimaginative and conservative team selection possible & most recently he said after the Brisbane game that Darcy was not ready to play AFL and its very probably Darcy wouldn't have been selected if Griffin was fit.

Having said all that I believe he is a brilliant man manager and an excellent tactician who is doing an excellent job of developing the team.
Note to people who dislike this kind of conjecture, its possible to discuss hight performance roles and disagree with certain aspects of the way someone does something and still consider them generally excellent at what they do. The way elite people become elite is by being open to criticism and ergo improvement. Lyon himself is constantly saying things like failure is feedback and does not shirk from self criticism and I think he needs to learn when to take a risk.
Lyon is a superb coach but he needs to learn the Napolean touch.

Very well summed up and there are numerous more examples than the ones you mentioned, though those are the probably the most memorable, especially the 2015 team selections.

Ross has always been an excellent coach, and as a devout Freo fan I am totally aware of the effect he had on our club. The ability to get every player on and off field to buy in was something we had never before seen at Fremantle. Watching our side put in great effort week in and week out both home and away was infinitely more satisfying than seeing the historically flaky Fremantle.

Ross 2017 is doing a good job overall. The reluctancy to play Darcy was frustrating and classic Lyon. But you can't underestimate the effect of his messages on our younger players. Whether he's coach in 5 years or not, they will be learning invaluable knowledge and mental toughness from him right now.