Is Ross Lyon averse to risk?

[tonygeeks]

We just like to argue for the sake of it. Fact or no Fact .

What do you mean fact or no fact ? Are you insane ? If only more people on here would listen to the absolute truth that fires from my fingertips every time I post something we would wouldn't be I this predicament let me tell you , in fact the whole world would be covered in awesome sauce if only people would just bloody well listen to ME


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[meima]

What do you mean fact or no fact ? Are you insane ? If only more people on here would listen to the absolute truth that fires from my fingertips every time I post something we would wouldn't be I this predicament let me tell you , in fact the whole world would be covered in awesome sauce if only people would just bloody well listen to ME


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The true fact is nobody will .

 

[DudleyDocker]

What do you mean fact or no fact ? Are you insane ? If only more people on here would listen to the absolute truth that fires from my fingertips every time I post something we would wouldn't be I this predicament let me tell you , in fact the whole world would be covered in awesome sauce if only people would just bloody well listen to ME


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It's pr!cks like you who think you know it all who make life difficult for those of us who do.

 

[ydraw]

There are plenty of people a player can attribute their success to...
Their captain, their formal captain, senior players, their high school coach, their neighbour, their neighbour's dog, nic nat's sms....

There is absolutely no need for players to attribute their development to any coach if they feel the coach did diddly squat for them.

There is when you're still playing for that coach.

 

[wayToGo_]

Who would have predicted this thread would have turned into the dumbest one on our board so quickly?

Some apparently 17yo comes on and says "go ask a St Kilda fan how they liked all the development by Ross"
Someone else references an article where a St Kilda player gives a big thumbs up to Ross' impact on their development
And the highly credible rebuttal is just that the player is lying.

This also opens another stream about Blakely praising Lyon for his development.
To which the response is no-one developed him, he would have turned out fine regardless.

Quick! Someone needs to tell the AFL to scrap all these development coaches. I mean what a waste of money, these kids can develop themselves just as well.

Now I get that a 17yo has never worked in a professional environment but even if they applied their own current/recent experience with teachers you'd think they might understand the importance of good mentors etc. It is moments like this I start to lose hope that future generations might have a clue. I just wasted 10 minutes of my life I'll never get back reading this tripe.

 

[Nightrain]

I prefer scrubbers into the arc myself , scrounger goals are our forte


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Seriously though, how bad has the delivery been into the F50 this year? It's either kicking it to the opposition defender or a shank off the side of the boot. And the culprits have been some of our better kicks in the Hills and Walters. Perhaps some of the blame lies with the forward structures and leading patterns but you'd think some of our blokes were brick layers by the way the kicks come off the boot and cross the 50 arc.

Apologies to any brick layers out there reading this.

 

[Nodgey]

Who would have predicted this thread would have turned into the dumbest one on our board so quickly?

I thought my observations re 'play your way in; play your way out' were rather astute and well argued.

 

[tonygeeks]

Who would have predicted this thread would have turned into the dumbest one on our board so quickly?

Some apparently 17yo comes on and says "go ask a St Kilda fan how they liked all the development by Ross"
Someone else references an article where a St Kilda player gives a big thumbs up to Ross' impact on their development
And the highly credible rebuttal is just that the player is lying.

This also opens another stream about Blakely praising Lyon for his development.
To which the response is no-one developed him, he would have turned out fine regardless.

Quick! Someone needs to tell the AFL to scrap all these development coaches. I mean what a waste of money, these kids can develop themselves just as well.

Now I get that a 17yo has never worked in a professional environment but even if they applied their own current/recent experience with teachers you'd think they might understand the importance of good mentors etc. It is moments like this I start to lose hope that future generations might have a clue. I just wasted 10 minutes of my life I'll never get back reading this tripe.

Ah ok , you seem to have some sand in your jocks about those posts which is fine
There's no fun in everyone agreeing
I would have just let it be till I read the bit about highly credible rebuttals...I'll see if I can't do a better job with this one , shoot for your lofty standards
1 I ain't 17
2 I managed to upset a few Saints fans on their preview thread the
other day I said something like " how long have you guys been
rebuilding now ? " Well I'm sure it's no great surprise that it
attracted a bit of heat probably a record for me on here.Every
single one was a reference to Ross and what he is going to do to
our list and just massive resentment about the hole he left them
in so seems pretty valid to me , go post something similar and see
how you go
3 I said ask a saints FAN and he dug up some player interviews ?
but anyway I then replied that far from being some huge tick for
Ross you can find exactly the same type of interviews for heaps of
coaches and some who wouldn't have been anywhere near as
successful as Ross Lyon ....Experienced player credits early coach
for showing him the ropes ..... player interview cliche # 28 for mine

I'm going for tea but I'll finish this later


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[Outshined]

So your argument basically amounts to - "you can't trust what AFL players who were coached by Lyon say, but Saints fans on bigfooty are an a-grade reference."

Riiiiiiight.

 

[wayToGo_]

I'm going for tea but I'll finish this later

I wouldn't bother because if you think this is reaching my "lofty" standards then you'd be mistaken

I'm all about solid debate but seriously the arguments you made were terrible. Things like... a fan's opinion has more weight than a player's. wtf? we might all be passionate supporters but we really have no clue what coaches do behind closed doors. You know who does? The players. Thinking coaches have no impact on the development of a player. just wtf x infinity. And now... coaches that are less successful than Ross have had players say they were important to their development. Individual player development and team success are not the same things you know?

What motivation does a player have to give kudos to a (especially past) coach that doesn't deserve it? None. So why is it a cliche? Because it happens all the time? Of course it happens plenty because there are thousands of coaches out there in the big wide world making a massive positive impact on professional athletes lives.

 

[gungho]

Who would have predicted this thread would have turned into the dumbest one on our board so quickly?

Some apparently 17yo comes on and says "go ask a St Kilda fan how they liked all the development by Ross"
Someone else references an article where a St Kilda player gives a big thumbs up to Ross' impact on their development
And the highly credible rebuttal is just that the player is lying.

This also opens another stream about Blakely praising Lyon for his development.
To which the response is no-one developed him, he would have turned out fine regardless.

Quick! Someone needs to tell the AFL to scrap all these development coaches. I mean what a waste of money, these kids can develop themselves just as well.

Now I get that a 17yo has never worked in a professional environment but even if they applied their own current/recent experience with teachers you'd think they might understand the importance of good mentors etc. It is moments like this I start to lose hope that future generations might have a clue. I just wasted 10 minutes of my life I'll never get back reading this tripe.

Who makes you the moral barometer on what can be said on these discussions? The point your "17yo" was making is that there was quite clearly a problem with youth development at St Kilda during Ross Lyon's tenure. This is really not an opinion, it is pretty much fact as there was a giant whole in the list of players between the age of 22 - 27 when he left. I think it is a pretty good point to be honest......and relevant to the discussion.

 

[Square Peg]

It isn't really fully relevant to a discussion about Lyon being risk averse. Unless that term applies to playing players that aren't ready. Is Lyon risk averse, of course he is. It's how he has one of the best h&a records. It's why the club hired him, to make us a competitive team week in week out. Rosich is on the record as saying that he values consistent performance i.e. finals every year over a flag.
We are getting what we paid for, a bloody good coach but not the best

 

[wayToGo_]

Who makes you the moral barometer on what can be said on these discussions? The point your "17yo" was making is that there was quite clearly a problem with youth development at St Kilda during Ross Lyon's tenure. This is really not an opinion, it is pretty much fact as there was a giant whole in the list of players between the age of 22 - 27 when he left. I think it is a pretty good point to be honest......and relevant to the discussion.

And maybe there is a valid argument - my issue was with how he argued not the argument itself. But how is it fact? Because some St Kilda fans say so? You can't classify something as fact from an opinion or opinions - you need credible evidence proving firstly that the list was worse when he left it and secondly that he was responsible for that. Are you sure a hole in players of a certain age range is the responsibility of the head coach and not the recruiters? Tbh I really don't care about St Kilda. I don't think Ross is faultless but he's brought us more to be happy about that any other coach and all the youngsters look to be developing quite well under his and his teams stewardship so I don't understand the continuous negativity by a few. Suspect it is a case of the grass seems greener.

edit - his profile says 17 so assumed that was his age.

 

[tonygeeks]

4 Look at the players he quoted exactly the type of talent challenged but gutsy foot soldiers Ross plays too often and sticks
with too long. Is that not what the discussion on this threads about

5 Never called any player a liar , just don't see how interviews like that do much too prove a coaches worth

6 If you would of finished reading the post about Blakley before the red mist descended . Never said development doesn't matter just that all AFL clubs are pretty standardised in the way they go about all that stuff so it doesn't really matter who does the developing Blakley would have been a good player for whoever he ended up with. I was making an observation that I didn't really buy it when clubs get wraps for developing players when they have just done a better job of talent ID

There consider yourself rebutted ha ha good onya no hards from me

Oh yeah there was one FACT in amongst my opinions a lot of Saints fans blame Lyon for leaving their list in a bad way that I can guarantee


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[Frank J Moose]

If there was a giant hole in StKildas list when Ross left it was the recruiters and not the coach. Years up the top tend to make it difficult and a couple of recruiting errors can leavr you with big problems.

That is not the coaches fault. They don't do the recruiting. Do you think any AFL coach has watched any U18s national games let alone TAC cup or WAFL colts. Yet clubs will have their big boards already well on there way.

 

[estibador]

Who makes you the moral barometer on what can be said on these discussions? The point your "17yo" was making is that there was quite clearly a problem with youth development at St Kilda during Ross Lyon's tenure. This is really not an opinion, it is pretty much fact as there was a giant whole in the list of players between the age of 22 - 27 when he left. I think it is a pretty good point to be honest......and relevant to the discussion.

Clearly a problem with youth development or a problem with talent identification (drafting)?

It's been pointed out numerous times that none of these young players Ross wouldn't give games to were picked up by other clubs and went on to have good careers. He didn't play them because they were no good, and other clubs obviously agreed since none of them were interested.

 

[scon]

Pertinent comments in today's presser re the two Harleys.
eg Harley Balic:
'He's in my office today saying "I'm up for it. I wanna play this weekend."
We know he's got the talent,we want to get the time into him,but then we've got Jason Weber and the S&C guys saying hang on there's his KPIs.If they're not met there may be soft tissue problems down the road....'
My rough-as-guts paraphrase...but it was germane.

 

[malpaso]

Please close this stupid thread

 

[FreoMonocle]

Never said development doesn't matter just that all AFL clubs are pretty standardised in the way they go about all that stuff so it doesn't really matter who does the developing Blakley would have been a good player for whoever he ended up with. I was making an observation that I didn't really buy it when clubs get wraps for developing players when they have just done a better job of talent ID

I dunno...

Walters went unchallenged about the extra pies or chips in his diet (or whatever) until Ross came. Stayed motivated since. While he always had the talent, which I guess your alluding to, I doubt he could do the gut running that let's him get and use the ball like he does now, if he was still a couple of dozen pies overweight.

Get the ball 10 times a game, the learning you get on game day is only as good as 10 a game, but being fitter and getting to the ball more often hones the skills to a point he never could have achieved before from just raw talent. I doubt it was just a difference of Harvey or Ross, I suspect that he'd always gotten away with slack diet and training, had the raw talent and didn't have to work as hard as the others.

He has repeatedly praised Ross for helping him get to this point today and it's more than just staying in the game as a professional instead of being delisted and flipping burgers somewhere. He is motivated because it unlocks a future for his kids that was probably inaccessible, his perspective on Ross's influence is that he has been a life changing catalyst, not just that he taught him how to tackle or kick or get in to better position or cuss better.

or the tldr version. Without Ross would be delisted and flipping burgers, with Ross is an elite player.

 

[tonygeeks]

I dunno...

Walters went unchallenged about the extra pies or chips in his diet (or whatever) until Ross came. Stayed motivated since. While he always had the talent, which I guess your alluding to, I doubt he could do the gut running that let's him get and use the ball like he does now, if he was still a couple of dozen pies overweight.

Get the ball 10 times a game, the learning you get on game day is only as good as 10 a game, but being fitter and getting to the ball more often hones the skills to a point he never could have achieved before from just raw talent. I doubt it was just a difference of Harvey or Ross, I suspect that he'd always gotten away with slack diet and training, had the raw talent and didn't have to work as hard as the others.

He has repeatedly praised Ross for helping him get to this point today and it's more than just staying in the game as a professional instead of being delisted and flipping burgers somewhere. He is motivated because it unlocks a future for his kids that was probably inaccessible, his perspective on Ross's influence is that he has been a life changing catalyst, not just that he taught him how to tackle or kick or get in to better position or cuss better.

or the tldr version. Without Ross would be delisted and flipping burgers, with Ross is an elite player.

But he didn't have enough magic beans to go around for Colin Sylvia , Josh Simpson and Shane Yarran ?


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[Crippa]

But he didn't have enough magic beans to go around for Colin Sylvia , Josh Simpson and Shane Yarran ?

You're beginning to sound like Matthew the Apostle: "Jesus could not perform miracles in Nazareth".

 

[meima]

I don't know the current Ross ( this year) is risk averse or not. But he definitely improve as a coach compare to St kilda days .
I am more interested to see how he handle the next phase of player like Cox , stranadica , grey and deluca development than tucker , blakely and Weller . He never had a problem with mundy ,Sandi,fyfe,Walters type of player but ( sherriden,d.pearce , suban, sutty,croz) type just go disappeared when the core is off .
Cam Mac , Kersten ,b.hill and hamling is all exclude from this discussion as they are not in freo list in the first place .

 

[Joao]

6 If you would of finished reading the post about Blakley before the red mist descended . Never said development doesn't matter just that all AFL clubs are pretty standardised in the way they go about all that stuff so it doesn't really matter who does the developing Blakley would have been a good player for whoever he ended up with. I was making an observation that I didn't really buy it when clubs get wraps for developing players when they have just done a better job of talent ID

Wait, what?

It is entirely Ross' fault that he didn't develop the Saints players but it doesn't matter which club a player is at they will develop similarly?

That sir, is a contradiction. Either those Saints players are spuds regardless of which club they ended up at, or Lyon had some influence on Blakely's development.

You can pick.

Oh yeah there was one FACT in amongst my opinions a lot of Saints fans blame Lyon for leaving their list in a bad way that I can guarantee
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It is a FACT that your FACT is just a statement of a group of peoples OPINION. There is no world where a fairly successful coach leaves a sporting team, that team declines and his new team improves markedly, that the supporters don't blame him for everything. That is just human nature.

 

[FreoMonocle]

But he didn't have enough magic beans to go around for Colin Sylvia , Josh Simpson and Shane Yarran ?

The coach can only provide the tools and attempt to inspire. It's still up to the individual to do something about it, they are humans and not programmable robots.

 

[wayToGo_]

The coach can only provide the tools and attempt to inspire. It's still up to the individual to do something about it, they are humans and not programmable robots.

We at BigFooty only deal in absolutes.

We win a premiership OR we suck
It is all their fault OR it is not their fault
Spud OR Greatest of all time
...