No Oppo Supporters The Melt Thread

[Freo]

GWS had no other choice, Hawthorn really Geelong, Dangerfield is hardly a development player. And the etc's are?

Last little while debutants not including delisted players:

Sydney- Tom Papley, Mills, Hewett, Jake Lloyd, Zak Jones, James Rose, Harry Marsh, Oliver Florentine, Daniel Robinson, Nic Newman, Jordan Dawson, Aliir Aliir and Heney.

GWS- plenty

Hawthorn - Jade Stewart, Blake Hardwick, James Sicily, Ryan Burton, Daniel Howe, Jonathan O'Rourke, Kaiden Brand, Jonathan Ceglar, Kurt Heatherly, Teia Miles, Marc Pittonet, Ryan Burton

Geelong - Brandon Parfitt, Nakua Cockatoo, Jake Kolodnashnij, D'arcy Lang, Wylie Buzza, Jed Bews, Sam Simpson, Zack Guthrie, Mark O'Connor

 

[estibador]

Last little while debutants not including delisted players:

Sydney- Tom Papley, Mills, Hewett, Jake Lloyd, Zak Jones, James Rose, Harry Marsh, Oliver Florentine, Daniel Robinson, Nic Newman, Jordan Dawson, Aliir Aliir and Heney.

GWS- plenty

Hawthorn - Jade Stewart, Blake Hardwick, James Sicily, Ryan Burton, Daniel Howe, Jonathan O'Rourke, Kaiden Brand, Jonathan Ceglar, Kurt Heatherly, Teia Miles, Marc Pittonet, Ryan Burton

Geelong - Brandon Parfitt, Nakua Cockatoo, Jake Kolodnashnij, D'arcy Lang, Wylie Buzza, Jed Bews, Sam Simpson, Zack Guthrie, Mark O'Connor

Half those players debuted years ago. Ceglar played his first game for Hawthorn in 2013 ffs - and he wasn't even a debutant, having come from Collingwood.

You really don't think you could make an equivalent list for Lyon?

 

[ydraw]

Some of those players debuted years ago. Ceglar played his first game for Hawthorn in 2013 ffs - and he wasn't even a debutant, having come from Collingwood.

You really don't think you could make an equivalent list for Lyon?

You could make an equivalent list for Lyon - but keep in mind that none of the above named clubs have committed to a "rebuild" after only winning 4 games in a season lately. They've been consistent top 8 finishers in that time. So if you're going to make a list from Lyon, only include players who debuted before round 3 this year when we were effectively forced into a rebuild.

 

[estibador]

You could make an equivalent list for Lyon - but keep in mind that none of the above named clubs have committed to a "rebuild" after only winning 4 games in a season lately. They've been consistent top 8 finishers in that time. So if you're going to make a list from Lyon, only include players who debuted before round 3 this year when we were effectively forced into a rebuild.

Ok, in the same timeframe Freo was happy to use with the other teams (and taking out the 'restgate' R23 games of 2013/2015):

Neale
Spurr
Crozier
Sutcliffe
Sheridan
Smith
Hannath
Taberner
Michie
Simpson
Apeness
Duffy
Pearce
Weller
Langdon
Blakely
Grey
Hughes
Tucker
Collins
Yarran

 

[Freo]

Half those players debuted years ago. Ceglar played his first game for Hawthorn in 2013 ffs - and he wasn't even a debutant, having come from Collingwood. Bews debuted in 2012, the same year as Lachie Neale.

You really don't think you could make an equivalent list for Lyon from Neale onwards?

Lyon playing the youth is the issue at hand. IIRC he became coach end of 2012. Go ahead, check our debutants with Sydney et al Since then until mid 2015 when it was clear we were stuffed. Or you could go on drinking the Ross can do no wrong kool-aid

 

[estibador]

Lyon playing the youth is the issue at hand. IIRC he became coach end of 2012. Go ahead, check our debutants with Sydney et al Since then until mid 2015 when it was clear we were stuffed. Or you could go on drinking the Ross can do no wrong kool-aid

Ok, I just did. In the same timeframe as our guys I listed above Sydney had 22 to our 21. If you want an arbitrary cut off of mid-2015 it's 16 to our 13, hardly a big discrepancy (16 each if you include our R23 2013 game).

The evidence doesn't support your preconceived notions.

 

[Crippa]

Lyon playing the youth is the issue at hand. IIRC he became coach end of 2012. Go ahead, check our debutants with Sydney et al Since then until mid 2015 when it was clear we were stuffed. Or you could go on drinking the Ross can do no wrong kool-aid

For the purposes of conducting the comparison, I would suggest having a firm grasp on when Lyon became coach of Fremantle might be a useful starting point.

 

[Freo]

Half those players debuted years ago. Ceglar played his first game for Hawthorn in 2013 ffs - and he wasn't even a debutant, having come from Collingwood. Bews debuted in 2012, the same year as Lachie Neale.

You really don't think you could make an equivalent list for Lyon from

For the purposes of conducting the comparison, I would suggest having a firm grasp on when Lyon became coach of Fremantle might be a useful starting point.

oops, your quite correct Chief, that is end of 2011. Thanks for the correction

 

[salim malik]

Lyon playing the youth is the issue at hand. IIRC he became coach end of 2012. Go ahead, check our debutants with Sydney et al Since then until mid 2015 when it was clear we were stuffed. Or you could go on drinking the Ross can do no wrong kool-aid

Facts are facts, nothing to do with Ross can do no wrong.

 

[M_rash]

You guys seem to be melting wrong. Keep it up though. Really interesting stuff

Ross can't develop youth.
Yes he can.
Stop drinking the kool-aid man.

I'm more interested in the lack of game plan and players with bad ball drops

 

[salim malik]

You guys seem to be melting wrong. Keep it up though. Really interesting stuff

Ross can't develop youth.
Yes he can.
Stop drinking the kool-aid man.

I'm more interested in the lack of game plan and players with bad ball drops

Ball drops gets worse with age.

 

[Freo]

Ok, I just did. In the same timeframe as our guys I listed above Sydney had 22 to our 21. If you want an arbitrary cut off of mid-2015 it's 16 to our 13, hardly a big discrepancy (16 each if you include our R23 2013 game).

The evidence doesn't support your preconceived notions.

Compared to an arguably more talented team in Hawthorn during the peak of their greatness 2013 & 2014

Hawthorn 12 AFL debutants
Freo 7 AFL debutants

I'd say that is statistically significant

*not including the round 23 tank games

 

[meima]

Compared to an arguably more talented team in Hawthorn during the peak of their greatness 2013 & 2014

Hawthorn 12 AFL debutants
Freo 7 AFL debutants

I'd say that is statistically significant

*not including the round 23 tank games

To be fair , Ross have no young players to debut anymore apart from duman and stranadica. Should Collins and Tab play more this year ? Properly yes.

 

[Deathly]

Lyon playing the youth is the issue at hand. IIRC he became coach end of 2012. Go ahead, check our debutants with Sydney et al Since then until mid 2015 when it was clear we were stuffed. Or you could go on drinking the Ross can do no wrong kool-aid

The only problem with 2015 was our game-plan - it wasn't the fact that we didn't play youth. We were rightfully in contention and still could of won the flag that year so there was no reason to quickly find upgrades for spots. It really wasn't until that season was over and 2016 when we realized that it's time to reset. Even if we were slow to doing it and 2016 was wasted, 2017 in my eyes has been a major success in exposing and rebuilding our list so no more unnecessary Lyon bagging.

We had a successful period - we're having a successful down-time period in fixing our list which should set us up nicely for a better crack than the 13-15 era.

 

[Mudd]

The only problem with 2015 was our game-plan - it wasn't the fact that we didn't play youth. We were rightfully in contention and still could of won the flag that year so there was no reason to quickly find upgrades for spots.

No, we won 1 out of 5 games against the top 8 sides during that last half of the 2015 H&A season.

I can understand at the time how most people on here were blinded by our top of the ladder placing but I don't know how anyone with the benefit of hindsight could say we were in contention going into the finals that year.

Having said that, those first 9 games of that season was some of the best football the club has played in many years.

 

[TheMcManusNose]

Ok, I just did. In the same timeframe as our guys I listed above Sydney had 22 to our 21. If you want an arbitrary cut off of mid-2015 it's 16 to our 13, hardly a big discrepancy (16 each if you include our R23 2013 game).

The evidence doesn't support your preconceived notions.

Exactly. You can manipulate the starting and ending points of the particular eras to produce whichever result suits your narrative. For me personally I think that Lyon is slightly more conservative than the other coaches named. However, it you look through this list:

Last little while debutants not including delisted players:

Sydney- Tom Papley, Mills, Hewett, Jake Lloyd, Zak Jones, James Rose, Harry Marsh, Oliver Florentine, Daniel Robinson, Nic Newman, Jordan Dawson, Aliir Aliir and Heney.

GWS- plenty

Hawthorn - Jade Stewart, Blake Hardwick, James Sicily, Ryan Burton, Daniel Howe, Jonathan O'Rourke, Kaiden Brand, Jonathan Ceglar, Kurt Heatherly, Teia Miles, Marc Pittonet, Ryan Burton + (James Cousins)

Geelong - Brandon Parfitt, Nakua Cockatoo, Jake Kolodnashnij, D'arcy Lang, Wylie Buzza, Jed Bews, Sam Simpson, Zack Guthrie, Mark O'Connor

I think it's also reasonable to say that many of these players would not be playing if the clubs involved hadn't plunged massively at the start of the year. Specifically Sydney and Hawthorn, who also had injury issues which we didn't (thus forcing the youth in some cases as compared to Lyon's non-injury forced youth). Christ if I was a Swans supporter I would have gone nar nars over Horse's handling of Newman. GWS is silly comparison.

I think it is reasonable to say that Ross should have looked to introduce more youth in the back half of 2015. But it is also entirely reasonable to say that there was a clear objective to win a flag and that he quite obviously erred on the side of including players with multiple pre-seasons behind them who knew the game plan. One would hope he has learned from that. Overall I can't really see how anyone can be really upset with Lyon's development of players. The kids seem like they are alright, and he's been playing them preferentially for a season and a half now.

 

[Deathly]

No, we won 1 out of 5 games against the top 8 sides during that last half of the 2015 H&A season.

I can understand at the time how most people on here were blinded by our top of the ladder.

What are you trying to say? That we weren't a good top of the ladder team or we wouldn't of won the flag?

Because history says otherwise. I hated the game-plan of 2015 but it worked. Who cares who we beat in the second half of the year, we did all the work in the first half to secure the finals. We scrapped a win against Sydney and if it wasn't for a 10 minute patch in the Hawthorn game (Where our form returned) then we would of most likely won the flag that year.

No one was blinded, in fact I remember a lot of people not liking how we played that year (Me included, the first half blowout and second half defense was painful to endure season long) but the reality is with that list it was the best game-plan to put in place and it nearly got the job done.

 

[Bender571]

Compared to an arguably more talented team in Hawthorn during the peak of their greatness 2013 & 2014

Hawthorn 12 AFL debutants
Freo 7 AFL debutants

I'd say that is statistically significant

*not including the round 23 tank games

Debutants are a poor metric to use. Your narrow guidelines punish Lyon for debuting Sheridan, Crozier, Neale and Sutcliffe in their first season (2012) and rewards Clarkson for debuting Luke Lowden in his sixth season (2014).
Imagine how much criticism Ross would cop if he kept a player on the list for six years until finally giving him a debut where he kicks 3 goals only to be immediately dropped and then requests a trade to another club. Or if he had a player win the Sandover in his 3rd season at the club and still not get debut, finally get a debut in his 4th season but only play 6 games and request a trade to another club (Hallahan).
6 of those Hawks debutants debuted in at least their 4th season (Lowden, Grimley, Duryea, Hallahan, Wanganeen, Litherlan). Since the 2010 draft Freo hasn't had a single player wait four seasons for a debut. Michie and Deluca are the only senior list players that waited until their third season, the rest debuted in their first or second season.

 

[Freo]

Debutants are a poor metric to use. Your narrow guidelines punish Lyon for debuting Sheridan, Crozier, Neale and Sutcliffe in their first season (2012) and rewards Clarkson for debuting Luke Lowden in his sixth season (2014).
Imagine how much criticism Ross would cop if he kept a player on the list for six years until finally giving him a debut where he kicks 3 goals only to be immediately dropped and then requests a trade to another club. Or if he had a player win the Sandover in his 3rd season at the club and still not get debut, finally get a debut in his 4th season but only play 6 games and request a trade to another club (Hallahan).
6 of those Hawks debutants debuted in at least their 4th season (Lowden, Grimley, Duryea, Hallahan, Wanganeen, Litherlan). Since the 2010 draft Freo hasn't had a single player wait four seasons for a debut. Michie and Deluca are the only senior list players that waited until their third season, the rest debuted in their first or second season.

I think you miss the point. Clarkson managed to get new faces into what was a great premiership team at regular intervals. This is a fact.
I am happy to agree to disagree on this one.
What is very pleasing is how well the young guys have performed under Ross. With a couple more good picks and a little more experience, we should jump up the ladder in the coming years.

 

[Nodgey]

No, we won 1 out of 5 games against the top 8 sides during that last half of the 2015 H&A season.

I can understand at the time how most people on here were blinded by our top of the ladder placing but I don't know how anyone with the benefit of hindsight could say we were in contention going into the finals that year.

Having said that, those first 9 games of that season was some of the best football the club has played in many years.

And was the perfect time to blood a few younguns like Weller, Blakely & Langdon, but if my memory serves they only got chances much later in the year.

 

[salim malik]

And was the perfect time to blood a few younguns like Weller, Blakely & Langdon, but if my memory serves they only got chances much later in the year.

How do you drop players from a side playing fantastic football and not disrupt the morale ? If you want to upset a side going well dropping players to blood newbies for no other reason than they are newbies would be the perfect way to go about it.

 

[M_rash]

I WANT PROPER MELTS!!!!

Why is Suban still getting games!!!

Why did Pav retire without a premiership but de Boer and Mzungu will likely win one each this year!!!

WHY IS LIFE SO UNFAIR!!! F**KING MELT OR START A NEW THREAD PEOPLE!!!! When was reasonable and logical debate about a topic a part of this thread???

 

[Gussman]

I WANT PROPER MELTS!!!!

Why is Suban still getting games!!!

Why did Pav retire without a premiership but de Boer and Mzungu will likely win one each this year!!!

WHY IS LIFE SO UNFAIR!!! F**KING MELT OR START A NEW THREAD PEOPLE!!!! When was reasonable and logical debate about a topic a part of this thread???

Nice Melt. 10/10

 

[FreoMonocle]

It's hard to take a melt thread seriously that shows such continuous disdain for CAPS, italics, bold and punctuation, like my favourite the exclamation mark!!!!

DO YOU NOT KNOW HOW TO MELT YOU MUPPETS!!!! I blame it on Ross, or should I say, ROSS!!!!

 

[M_rash]

It's hard to take a melt thread seriously that shows such continuous disdain for CAPS, italics, bold and punctuation like my favourite the exclamation mark!!!!

DO YOU NOT KNOW HOW TO MELT YOU MUPPETS!!!! I blame it on Ross, or should I say, ROSS!!!!

This melt thread needs a serious replumb, rewire, and RESTUMP. Nothing drastic, the core is there, just lacking a little bit of finesse and effort!!!!