Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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Harry Hook said:
Ted "Janey"O'Neill

Weekly Times 21 September 1940

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article223193309

This article says he played in 1901 to 1902.
Click to expand...

Thank you
Im glad you found this reference because 2-3 years ago, the family of O'Neill came in and told us his father had played in the VFA and tentatively pointed him out in a team photo - so its good to connectthe dots more.

Cheers
Rhett
 
rbartlett said:
For those asking about Richmond VFA players - here is our most up-to-date list we have.
Of course I'm trying to get first names for all players ( a mighty task), so if anyone ever comes across one they can identify then go for it!
It's a lot of fun solving these puzzles.
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=VFA+Players
Click to expand...
Did you mean to have Charlie Ricketts on this list, as this is obviously the same person who later played for (and coached) Richmond in the VFL? # He also played for South Melbourne (1906-12) and St Kilda (1921 - he coached the Saints as well):- http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/C/Charlie_Ricketts.html
'The Encyclopedia' says "Ricketts made his reputation in the VFA with Richmond, and crossed to the VFL with ease."

George 'Sugar' Sparrow played for South Melbourne and St Kilda (who he also coached):- http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/G/George_Sparrow.html
From the same book "Played with Richmond in its VFA days."

A Henry Allender played 1 game for Carlton in 1899. "Ex-Collingwood Juniors." Probably this bloke:-
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/H/Henry_Allender.html

# I see it says this on the page: An asterix* indicates they continued their Richmond career into the VFL.

William Bourke played in the VFL for Richmond (1908-09). I would think that would have to be the 1906-07 VFA player. "Ex-Collingwood Trades."

Jim Dowdall also played for Collingwood in 1897:- http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/J/Jim_Dowdall.html

The J.E. Youlden should be Joseph E./Joe who played for Fitzroy in 1906:- http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/J/Joe_Youlden.html
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/198609057 (May 1907) "Jos. E. Youlden, Fitzroy to Richmond"

Percy Gibb played for Collingwood (1905-14). "Ex-Richmond VFA." Brother of Len Gibb who played 1 game for Richmond in 1914:- http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/P/Percy_Gibb.html

You have George Gibson* (Played Ess 1906-07) playing for Richmond in 1907, but it probably has to be a different player. 'Gibson' was named in the best players for Richmond in this game on 20 July 1907, but he was meant to be playing his final game for Essendon on that day!!:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/198611038 || http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/G/George_Gibson.html
Same thing 25 May 1907:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/221259075

Edit: Yikes!!! Here's a permit in early May 1907 for "G. Gibson, Essendon (League) to Richmond;" http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/198611647
You have him playing 18 games for Richmond in 1907 yet he's meant to have played 8 that year for Essendon. Something doesn't seem right there!

There's also permits for A. Beck, Ballarat to Richmond; J. Jones, Western Australia to Richmond; and W. Hendrie, Richmond to Hawthorn.
 
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A Trove hint for people chasing permits.

If for instance you are looking for players getting permits from NM, go to Trove, do an advanced search with the specified date range and type in "North melbourne football permit to" in the panel "all of these words".

You then get 100s or 1000s of entries. Don't despair. press the panel "detailed lists, results, guides" on the side and that will delimit your search significantly and allow you to focus on the actual lists of permits. If you include "articles" you will also encompass all those other incidental articles that waste time.

You can then alter the sort function of the search to "date first" or "date latest" and get a chronological listing of the reduced amount of entries.

Another trick is to then delimit your search to the Age\Argus |Weekly Times or any other papers that included the actual lists.

The key thing though is to delimit your search at first to "detailed lists" as they should give you most of the permits granted.

Good hunting folks.
 
35Daicos said:
<snip>

You have George Gibson* (Played Ess 1906-07) playing for Richmond in 1907, but it probably has to be a different player. 'Gibson' was named in the best players for Richmond in this game on 20 July 1907, but he was meant to be playing his final game for Essendon on that day!!:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/198611038 || http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/G/George_Gibson.html
Same thing 25 May 1907:- http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/221259075

Edit: Yikes!!! Here's a permit in early May 1907 for "G. Gibson, Essendon (League) to Richmond;" http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/198611647
You have him playing 18 games for Richmond in 1907 yet he's meant to have played 8 that year for Essendon. Something doesn't seem right there!
<snip>
Click to expand...

Mmm..Gibson..yes - bit of digging going on here...

at start of 1913 season he is cleared from Richmond to Brunswick
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/a...d to brunswick"&searchLimits=l-state=Victoria

He died on 31 Dec 1933, so at start of 1934 there are a few articles about him. Sad end, he copped a bullet at Gallipoli in WWI and it remained lodged in one of his lungs for the rest of his life:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/111873066
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203382944
 
the croucher said:
Edit: Yikes!!! Here's a permit in early May 1907 for "G. Gibson, Essendon (League) to Richmond;" http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/198611647
You have him playing 18 games for Richmond in 1907 yet he's meant to have played 8 that year for Essendon. Something doesn't seem right there!

There's also permits for A. Beck, Ballarat to Richmond; J. Jones, Western Australia to Richmond; and W. Hendrie, Richmond to Hawthorn.
Click to expand...

Yes, there appears to be a potential data issue with George Gibson as spotted by Harry Hook
Our records have Gibson playing every game for Richmond in 1907 VFA except for Sept 7. Therefore he couldn't possibly have played 8 games for Essendon VFL that same season. (Gibson went on to play for Richmond til 1912 in VFL)
 
the croucher said:
Mmm..Gibson..yes - bit of digging going on here...

at start of 1913 season he is cleared from Richmond to Brunswick
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10781120?searchTerm="george gibson" "richmond to brunswick"&searchLimits=l-state=Victoria

He died on 31 Dec 1933, so at start of 1934 there are a few articles about him. Sad end, he copped a bullet at Gallipoli in WWI and it remained lodged in one of his lungs for the rest of his life:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/111873066
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/203382944
Click to expand...

George Stormouth Henry Gibson ( b 1 Jan 1885 - d 31 Dec 1933 )
1914 electoral roll has him listed as living in Gipps St East Melbourne, occupation tram conductor
 
the croucher said:
George Stormouth Henry Gibson ( b 1 Jan 1885 - d 31 Dec 1933 )
1914 electoral roll has him listed as living in Gipps St East Melbourne, occupation tram conductor
Click to expand...

Gibson's photo is here btw: http://www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au/George+Gibson
He is quite noticeable in team photos I've seen at Richmond Museum.
It will be interesting if we find an Essendon 1907 team photo that purports to show Gibson.

Btw the croucher your birthday of Gibson differs from AFL Tables/Wiki/Tigers of Old book
They have Jan 1 1885. I wonder if there was an entirely new player called 'Gibson' who played for Ess in 1907
 
rbartlett said:
Gibson's photo is here btw: http://www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au/George+Gibson
He is quite noticeable in team photos I've seen at Richmond Museum.
It will be interesting if we find an Essendon 1907 team photo that purports to show Gibson.

Btw the croucher your birthday of Gibson differs from AFL Tables/Wiki/Tigers of Old book
They have Jan 1 1885. I wonder if there was an entirely new player called 'Gibson' who played for Ess in 1907
Click to expand...


...or rather than a new player, possibly it is Phil Gibson who plays on, having been at Essendon in 1906
http://www.essendonfc.com.au/our-club/history/past-player-profiles/past-player-profiles-g
 

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the croucher said:
...or rather than a new player, possibly it is Phil Gibson who plays on, having been at Essendon in 1906
http://www.essendonfc.com.au/our-club/history/past-player-profiles/past-player-profiles-g
Click to expand...
I think this is the most likely answer. It seems George Gibson was cleared to Richmond early enough for him to have played 18 games in 1907, of course he couldn't still have been playing for Essendon at the same time!

It's interesting that the Essendon past player profile says "A half-back, George Gibson played 12 games in 1906 and 1907 before joining Richmond (VFA) in late 1907" when it was at the start of that season. They also have his DoB as 23/06/1885, which is what AFL Tables has.

It would appear that any error with this must be at the Essendon end. George and Phil Gibson were of similar age and size, and both played half-back. Chances are that Phil was the one still playing at that club in 1907. That same page says "He went on to play with Essendon Association between 1909 and 1914", he was probably still at Essendon in 1907.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/73260474 (24 April 1909)
Rumour has it that Phil. Gibson of Yarraville, played with Essendon (A.) last Saturday. Such is not the
case. Phil. is playing with the Yarraville Pressos, and will captain this natty team throughout the season.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/73260526 (8 May 1909)
Phil. Gibson, of Yarraville, played with Essendon (A) last Saturday. He played well, too, and kicked two goals, I hereby apologise to Dame Rumour for stating that her rumourings were incorrect in regard to Gibson's intentions.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/73260770 (3 July 1909)
This suggests that he was captain of Yarraville Presbyterian FC in 1908 (but where was he in 1907?!):- "and on his left Mr. Phil Gibson, last season's captain".
 
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rbartlett said:
Gibson's photo is here btw: http://www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au/George+Gibson
He is quite noticeable in team photos I've seen at Richmond Museum.
It will be interesting if we find an Essendon 1907 team photo that purports to show Gibson.

Btw the croucher your birthday of Gibson differs from AFL Tables/Wiki/Tigers of Old book
They have Jan 1 1885. I wonder if there was an entirely new player called 'Gibson' who played for Ess in 1907
Click to expand...
You can see what Phil Gibson looked like on page 34 of the 2008 Rd. 4 Football Record, but finding that Essendon 1907 team photo (with him and not the other Gibson in it) is clearly the tricky part. As you probably saw, Boyle's site has plenty of 1908 team photos for Essendon but none for 1907.
 
rbartlett said:
Gibson's photo is here btw: http://www.boylesfootballphotos.net.au/George+Gibson
He is quite noticeable in team photos I've seen at Richmond Museum.
It will be interesting if we find an Essendon 1907 team photo that purports to show Gibson.

Btw the croucher your birthday of Gibson differs from AFL Tables/Wiki/Tigers of Old book
They have Jan 1 1885. I wonder if there was an entirely new player called 'Gibson' who played for Ess in 1907
Click to expand...

Yes, date difference noted, obviously needs checking with reliable sources.

The digital copy of George Gibson's WWI enlistment document dated 17 August 1914 gives his age as 27 yrs 6 mths which implies birth date around Jan/Feb 1887, but that is inaccurate from all I can find. His age upon death (48) which is listed at Vic BDMs ties in with him being born in 1885.

By the way, the war service record shows his height as 5ft 7in (abt 170 cm),
and his weight as 12 stone (abt 76 kg).

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/Sea...eports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=5038617&isAv=N
 
George Gibson of Brunswick Football Club DID serve in WW1.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article87755498

Very sad letter of George Gibson published in the Brunswick and coburg Leader on 10 September 1915 which describes how he got a bullet in his stomach in 1915 (the letter was dated 14 June 1915) Everybody take a moment to read this letter because it is a contemporary record of the contribution of one of our young men who fought in World War 1 and was forever scarred (quite apart from him being an ex footballer).

So if we refer back to this article:

Recorder 5 January 1934 (which is a copy of a Melbourne article)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article95793228

his Brunswick footballing status as well as his injuries are confirmed.

More to the point this report of George Gibson being missing in 1915 in the Age states that he played for Richmond Essendon and Brunswick and worked on the trams and that his initials were George SH Gibson

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article154949352

This report further confirms the 1934 report.
 
More on George Gibson.

He went to Essendon from Bunbury in West Australia.

See the permit of the Age of 31 May 1906 which specifically names him as George Gibson

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article189368601

which makes his permit history as follows:

Bunbury to Essendon to Richmond.

The Bunbury connection is also confirmed by this enigmatic report about the rumoured death of George Gibson in 1906 in the Bunbury Herald of 16 May 1906

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article87211419

Intriguingly this report of the Daily News in WA of 9 August 1906 names the Gibson playing as P Gibson ( although this could be a typo.....)

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article87211419
 
More confirmation of the the 1915 and the 1934 reports re Gibson.

Here is the 1913 permit from Richmond to Brunswick for G Gibson

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article199439210

So we now have the complete permit history for George Gibson

1906 Bunbury to Essendon

1907 Essendon to Richmond

1913 Richmond to Brunswick

And this version of events matches up with the Richmond data, the contemporary permit reports, the 1915 report and the 1934 death reports.

The only thing it doesn't match up with is the 1907 AFL records for George Gibson and all consequent Wikipedia reports.

AFL tables lists him as playing for Essendon in 1907 from 27 April 1907 to as late as July 1907 ( 2 months after the permit from Essendon to Richmond).

I note that in the report of the permit from Essendon to Richmond for Gibson , it referred to Essendon (League) rather than just Essendon and the report of Madden in the same sets of permits says "Madden Ess (League) to Essendon".

The problem probably comes about because AFL Tables has Phil Gibson playing 4 games for Essendon in 1906 and George Gibson playing 6 in 1906 but in 1907 has George Gibson playing 8 games and Phil Gibson 0 games. Indeed in one game at least in 1906 both unrelated Gibson's played in the same Essendon team.

Against this the contemporary evidence, to my knowledge, does not record any permit for P Gibson to Richmond or elsewhere but does show evidence that G Gibson was transferred to Richmond, therefore leaving P Gibson presumably ( said with some apprehension).

The problem is exacerbated by the fact that the age report that published the 1907 G Gibson permit is not replicated to my knowledge in the Argus (I might have missed it though).

Bottom line is that it is a simple error in attribution.

Essendon records that G Gibson played in 1907 but it was in fact P Gibson who played the games.

As to who Phil Gibson was the geneologists can work that out.

That Phil Gibson played for Essendon there is no doubt as this Sporting Globe retrospective report suggests

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article189126967
 
Harry Hook said:
<snip>

Essendon records that G Gibson played in 1907 but it was in fact P Gibson who played the games.

As to who Phil Gibson was the geneologists can work that out.

That Phil Gibson played for Essendon there is no doubt as this Sporting Globe retrospective report suggests

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article189126967
Click to expand...

Phil Gibson's death date is recorded on australianfootball website as 4 October 1939
http://australianfootball.com/players/player/Phil+Gibson/2110

His death notice is in The Argus issue of 5 October 1939
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/a...|l-state=Victoria|||l-category=Family+Notices

I note that it finishes with the phrase "late of Yarraville."
 
Just a side note. While not being able to contribute over the last week I still applaud the efforts of those who have.

Harry Hook said:
The only thing it doesn't match up with is the 1907 AFL records for George Gibson and all consequent Wikipedia reports.
Click to expand...

It may well be time for the AFL to appoint a few of us to do some crosschecking of records and newspaper reports and Club Records. There seems to be a period of 40 years or so where the records blur into inconsistency. The above quote highlights how 1 error can be perpetuated.

This is not to say all records are wrong, and all news reports are right, but if we have found these few so quick then how many must be out there?
 
Well, the croucher 35Daicos Harry Hook - between the 3 of you, did one of you want to email a brief to Col H / Stephen Rodgers at AFL outlining the 1907 games attributed to George Gibson and Phil Gibson.
We don't really have a process in place / or a spokesperson on behalf of this group - but it seems fair that whoever found the inaccuracy (or worked on it) should submit it to AFL.

(I've already submitted a separate email regarding Ollie McKelson's first name, and the start time for Rd 2 1921 match to them)
 
rbartlett said:
Well, the croucher 35Daicos Harry Hook - between the 3 of you, did one of you want to email a brief to Col H / Stephen Rodgers at AFL outlining the 1907 games attributed to George Gibson and Phil Gibson.
We don't really have a process in place / or a spokesperson on behalf of this group - but it seems fair that whoever found the inaccuracy (or worked on it) should submit it to AFL.

(I've already submitted a separate email regarding Ollie McKelson's first name, and the start time for Rd 2 1921 match to them)
Click to expand...
Please do so. I have no particular interest in personal attribution, hence my use of a nom de plume. Look up the name Harry Hook one day.......
 
GreyCrow said:
Just a side note. While not being able to contribute over the last week I still applaud the efforts of those who have.



It may well be time for the AFL to appoint a few of us to do some crosschecking of records and newspaper reports and Club Records. There seems to be a period of 40 years or so where the records blur into inconsistency. The above quote highlights how 1 error can be perpetuated.

This is not to say all records are wrong, and all news reports are right, but if we have found these few so quick then how many must be out there?
Click to expand...
As I have said Trove is a game changer and most records on AFL tables were compiled prior to Trove and nobody ever checked.

In a way, I already like checking the old AFL tables records but I do it for fun and the challenge as well as because it is a way in which history can be used positively.

That being said, the records will not change unless we have historians who wish to verify their own records without fear. Rhett is prepared to open the Richmond records, especially VFA to scrutiny and hence gets a return.

Not every historian would be so generous.

Also Bigfooty gets a bad reputation sometimes for being social media. This way we also contribute something tangible.
 
Gents need your thoughts
Our records 1902 has a player called MANNING playing 7 games (3/5, 24/5, 31/5, 7/6, 14/6, 26/7, 2/8)
Yet the Richmond Annual Report does not list amongst the players for that season.
However the Annual Report does list ERNEST VOLLUGI as a player for that season (Vollugi would go to Melbourne for the 1904 season).
Now.. in the 1902 Richmond Minute Book there is a match report cutting from Rich vs Port Melbourne 3/5/1902 that reads "Little Vol-I mean Manning- got a nasty toss from Infant Bliss. Had to be carried off for repairs but he soon reappeared and made his presence felt too".
So... is the 7 games of Manning for Richmond in 1902 , actually Vollugi in disguise. It's a peculiar sentence. Or is it merely a reference to Manning having similiar skills to Vollugi.

Unrelated or not in the 13 May 1902 Minute Book it reads:
Mr Beachcroft the Hon Secretary stated that Mr Donald McDonald, the eminient War Correspondent had been lecturing in the suburbs upon his expenses in the Boer War with great success. As Mr McDonald had not given his entertainment in Richmond, the Hon Secretary thought it would be a great draw. r O'Briend was requested to interview Mr Vollugi to ascertain if he had an objection as to his name appearing in this matter. Mr Vollugi said he had no objection.
It was moved by....to wait on Mr McDonald to ascertain if that gentleman would give his services one evening on the occasion of a complimentary benefit to be tendered by Mr Vollugi.

So perhaps is Vollugi not well, therefore it can't be him playing those games, and that Manning infact a completely different player.

EDIT UPDATE: I think I answered my own question. Looks like Vollugi was quite ill
Newspaper cutting in Minute Book: 'in the Richmond Town Hall on next Wednesday week, 23rd inst, at a benefit concert to be tendered to Mr E Vollugi, a player of the Richmond Football Club who has just recovered from a long and painful illness." I suspect the earlier 'Little Vol- I mean Manning' was more of a homage to indicate Manning had taken Vollugi's place.

I'll keep this post up so as to show my production line of thinking and research items I used to answer my own question.
 
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