Why don't we play well in finals?

[iameviljez]

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2017/09/13/cats-not-genuine-top-four-says-former-star/

I don't necessarily agree with all of it but these are Cam Mooney's thoughts on us this year.

I agree with that. Lose one or two of those close games this year - the draw against GWS, or missed shots from Walters or Smith, or Dixon not taking too long to kick at goal, or GHS not getting a free kick - and that's where we'd sit.

 

[jaydee2323]

He got a little annoyed when he was questioned about his poor record of late in finals. He reverted to the fact that the teams have been vastly different over time. He did not however acknowledge the one one common denominator over this period. He has been the senior coach of all these teams !! He has to take responsibility for that. Credit where it is due he did a great job in 2011 and rejuvenated the champs but he has got to a point where he has built this team and now it falls on him. Clearly fri night we are up against it and this will further condemn his record. He has largely escaped criticism due to his unparalleled h&a record and great media performances. I think the qf has put him in the spotlight and more pressure will mount unless finals are won. That is what it is all about after all

One thing that annoyed me in his comments was trying to tell us that this team is vastly different to the team that played in last year's finals and unfair to lump together. I took a look at last year's prelim team compared to last weeks team and out of the 22, 16 players played in both games and there were an additional 3 players that played in the prelim and are still on the list but didn't play last week. I understand that there can internal and external messages, but to quote Denis Pagan "Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining".

 

[you pick one]

This Geelong side and finals is like Gary Hocking and finals,to few doing the heavy lifting in the home and away to get there resulting in being burnt out come finals time.

 

[Partridge]

6. Playing to win games and not to develop a side that can win a flag. I've said it many times Chris Scott just picks the best 22 players regardless of structure. Dropping a senior player is going to weaken the side in the short term but in the long term its normally a good thing to do.

I'd reword it slightly - Chris Scott picks his favourite 22 players regardless of structure and particularly regardless of form.

I'd add one more.

7. Too many players who under finals pressure turn to s**t.
Including, but not limited to - Motlop, Blicavs, Murdoch, and starting to see worrying signs from Menegola and Henderson. Be interesting to see how many redeem themselves Friday night.

 

[kickazz]

We've had a bad run with injuries over the last few years I recon.

This leads to playing blokes that perhaps shouldn't be playing yet.

That's fine, it happens. It can be turned to a positive way of developing the youngsters.

But I think the lack of talent drives us to subsequently use an overly defensive, structured game plan that doesn't develop the players as well as it might.

The alternative is risky, you probably lose more games by big margins but I think the players learn more.


I'd like to see them mix it up this Friday and throw caution to the wind. If it fails it fails. But * me, anyone watching the end of that Port vs WCE final will know that instincts, courage and endeavour are paramount to winning finals

 

[MarkCatsFan]

There has definitely been an air of complacency about the Cats over the last 6 years throughout this period.

I hate the media, I despise every so called footy journo with zero exceptions, but they do have a way of driving change when they light their torches and bang at the doors of a club. I really hope that if and when we lose yet another final that they come at us hard, I want to see some absolutely brutal things written about this footy club all summer long, because rightly or wrongly they won't be ignored.

 

[Reppie]

Too many players getting gifted games while under performing.
Don't feel the need to improve as in no fear of being dropped.
Unless your unlucky enough to be a Menzel or Buzza.
One guy that is actually is capable of kicking goals and the other who actually competes.
Yeah... don't want them types playing.

 

[Biggy_Boy]

Too many players getting gifted games while under performing.
Don't feel the need to improve as in no fear of being dropped.
Unless your unlucky enough to be a Menzel or Buzza.
One guy that is actually is capable of kicking goals and the other who actually competes.
Yeah... don't want them types playing.

Buzza tries, but he's not all that good yet.

 

[Reppie]

Buzza tries, but he's not all that good yet.

Neither is Motlop.
Yet he get gifted games week after week.
And puts in no effort.

 

[rmcq]

As an outsider, it seems pretty simple.

Geelong have a 3-4 goal home ground advantage at KP. Mostly because of the odd ground shape.

So by the end of the HA season, they win more games than average, so seem to be better than they really are.

In finals you have to play on normal grounds, like the MCG or Adelaide Oval. Geelong just haven’t had enough practice playing on those grounds.

Geelong have traded home and away wins (and therefore more finals appearances) for finals wins.

I'm sure it’s more complicated than that, but if they wanted to win in September, their redevelopment of KP should have included alteration to the shape of the playing surface.

 

[UnitedWarrior93]

This Geelong side and finals is like Gary Hocking and finals,to few doing the heavy lifting in the home and away to get there resulting in being burnt out come finals time.

Pretty much this, over the course of the year we rely to heavily on to few to get us over the line, and now come finals, you need 22 players contributing, we only have a handful, and you can't win when half the team is down all together in finals.

 

[iameviljez]

The one thing I would deny is the usage of terms like "effort" and "willing" - I don't think *any* AFL player thinks oh, it's a final, we'll win this, I won't try as hard today. I don't think anything much changes - bar the pressure, and we don't handle that well.

 

[iameviljez]

I'm sure it’s more complicated than that, but if they wanted to win in September, their redevelopment of KP should have included alteration to the shape of the playing surface.

Unfortunately there's no space on the outer wing, where it backs straight up onto a six-lane road.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Why don't nearby Geelong players provide blocking moves for our ball-carriers. We NEVER seem to block much, or shepherd. Think of Scarlo's toepoke in the 2009 Grand Final. He followed up his work by shepherding Little Gaz until he kicked it in to a waiting Varcoe and, of course, the Bald Knight.

I want to see lots of that s**t on Friday.

 

[Mahlepi]

I agree with that. Lose one or two of those close games this year - the draw against GWS, or missed shots from Walters or Smith, or Dixon not taking too long to kick at goal, or GHS not getting a free kick - and that's where we'd sit.

similar could be said for a number of teams
swans - essendon not letting goddard be a tool

 

[God Mode]

As an outsider, it seems pretty simple.

Geelong have a 3-4 goal home ground advantage at KP. Mostly because of the odd ground shape.

So by the end of the HA season, they win more games than average, so seem to be better than they really are.

In finals you have to play on normal grounds, like the MCG or Adelaide Oval. Geelong just haven’t had enough practice playing on those grounds.

Geelong have traded home and away wins (and therefore more finals appearances) for finals wins.

I'm sure it’s more complicated than that, but if they wanted to win in September, their redevelopment of KP should have included alteration to the shape of the playing surface.

The team of 07-11 never had a problem adjusting to the G. In fact I'd confidently say we played BETTER at the MCG in this time period. The problem is the gameplan/mindset of the current era.

 

[xtatik222k]

Port Adelaide in 2013 and Hawthorn last year, for example - we won, but we didn't play well.

It infuriates me that Scott uses the Hawthorn game to dispell the idea that we play poorly off the bye. A game in which we won because someone else missed a sitter after the siren... Give me strength...

 

[Moggy]

We just don't handle high pressured contested footy well, we have too many that either go missing completely... or panic and cough the ball up wherever they get it.

I agree, but I also remember Jimmy Bartel going all fumbly under intense Freo pressure in 2012 or 2013. Its like a virus that spreads throughout the team.

Maybe that's where leadership really gets put to the test. Take the heat. Show the rest the way and do it early before the sickness spreads.

 

[David the Cat]

Neither is Motlop.
Yet he get gifted games week after week.
And puts in no effort.

That's not so.....

 

[Claude Balls]

I'd be interested to see an analysis of our performances by venue over the last few years.

I am sure the extra pressure of finals football is a significant factor, however the question could well be re-phrased to "why don't we play well at the G", and be just as pertinent.

The answer for mine is a mixture of gameplan and personnel, the latter affecting the former. I.e. At the G we struggle to lock it in our forward 50 as effectively as we do at KP, and struggle to break out of our defensive 50 when the oppo looks it in. We also move it too slow when we have it but that's not unique to the G.

It's my belief that these flaws are a combo of poor tactics and probably more telling, simply lacking the cattle:

We have only one good ball carrier who can rack it up AND reliably deliver it well inside 50 (Duncan). The team overall is lacking in kicking skill and smarts.

We have no small crumbling forwards

We have no A-grade small or medium defenders who can get the ball out of a congested backline by running with it.

 

[Moggy]

After a winning dynasty, a club that craves stability has topped up with decent players as generational players left or retired.

They have achieved a low amplitude wave up the top end of the ladder - with minimal distance between peaks and troughs.

This is great for stabilizing a club, building a stadium and clearing debt. It seems to be Brian Cook's preferred way.

It's not so great for snagging the talent that can push you to the flag. For that you need a high amplitude wave that takes you from the top to the bottom and back up again.

If (when?) we lose in Friday, I think the time has come to seriously look at switching strategies.

 

[xtatik222k]

After a winning dynasty, a club that craves stability has topped up with decent players as generational players left or retired.

They have achieved a low amplitude wave up the top end of the ladder - with minimal distance between peaks and troughs.

This is great for stabilizing a club, building a stadium and clearing debt. It seems to be Brian Cook's preferred way.

It's not so great for snagging the talent that can push you to the flag. For that you need a high amplitude wave that takes you from the top to the bottom and back up again.

If (when?) we lose in Friday, I think the time has come to seriously look at switching strategies.

Couldn't agree more. In a soft year, this list was perfectly positioned for a flag tilt. If we bomb out in straight sets, time to try something else.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Too many players willing to leave too much of the work to too few.

Interesting this.

We watched for over a season when Danger came in and it was the Dangerfield-Selwood show. And oh how we scorned the other mids for being lazy. Like when Selwood got himself all lazy in the 2010 final against Collingwood. Or when Menegola decided it was his turn to be lazy against Richmond after a BOG performance the previous week.

But wait! That doesn't sound right. So, whats going on? Players aren't lazy, they are given roles to play that don't get the best out of them in the game, and that is what is happening. So for every star that is starring, but there are 3 players left to run in patterns doing SFA. It's not good enough to say players are just lazy. Some of the players that have been pilloried here do huge kms during the game. These players are doing their job, and its winning games. But this works during the season, and not at the pointy end when it should be all hands on deck because its red-hot out there.

Which gets me to the core issue: skills. Role players don't need much in the skill department, do they now? So if that is the thinking, that will be the coaching. And it shows up in finals games.

An example of this is that Selwood is from the 2007-11 era. Dangerfield is the "New Geelong". They personify the direction of this team. For all of Danger's attributes, the finer skills of execution passing etc aren't among them. Its no coincidence it was Selwood that marked and turned on a penny and gave the perfect pass under pressure to Hawkins in the dying seconds of that game against Hawthorn.

jmo

 

[rmcq]

The team of 07-11 never had a problem adjusting to the G. In fact I'd confidently say we played BETTER at the MCG in this time period. The problem is the gameplan/mindset of the current era.

That’s because the 07-11 team was full of stars. They were good enough to win anywhere. The current side just isn’t as good, and the competition is much tighter. You need everything going your way to win, and relying on home and away wins is not enough for September.

 

[Gavin Excell]

I noticed when we played the Swans that when the Swans get the ball they play on straight away and then they look for options further down the field. They do not wait for someone to lead. They just run off with the ball and then select the best option of the players who are moving.

Our current game looks far too stagnant to me. They do not play like the old Cats of '07 to 11 (but then again they are not the Cats of that time). But to my way of thinking they do not make it easy to hit the scoreboard as they just move the ball too slowly. That was a problem of the 2006 season.

Yes. Agree entirely

But is this a talent thing? While its unfair to expect same level of results from this group compared to the 2007-11 glory years, is it reasonable to think that the team could play more aggressive and attacking football?