Review The Grand Final Disaster of 2017.

[TheLeftFist8]

Watched bits of the game again last night

I honestly think our guys just thought we would win and did not respect the opposition. There is a bit if champagne football at the start of the game to show this ie a distinct lack if defensive running.

Watched Dons presser and I think he knows this as well.



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I will never understand how this can happen in a Grand Final...what a bunch of mental pygmies to even think this way.

 

[TheLeftFist8]

- why did they pick Otten when the set up was so obviously stupid? He's a bog average player yet we made room for him. Structure is useless if the players filling it are substandard.
- why did they pick a 3rd tall, slow defender when the opposition had only one key forward. Different if he was athletic and not a cancer on the playing group but sounds like half the team didn't want Lever and here is a game where he had no role.
- I love Greenwood but he needs to repay a lot of broken trust after declaring himself fit to play
- Tex and the other leaders should've manufactured some aggression to stop the momentum of the game but whimpered out and just didn't give a crap IN A GRAND FINAL...that is their legacy now unless they can win one.

 

[pirate bob]

Good question.
In another thread I speculated that Walsh should've taken Dangerfield aside at the start of 2015 (PD's last contracted year) and told him to sign on, or rack off to Melbourne for the two first-round draft picks they offered. We'll probably never know if that happened or not, too.
With Lever, around your suggested Round 20, Pyke could've said similar --- sign on or rack off. If Pyke knew he was leaving, he would've had time to put more games, say, into Keath (or another defender of his choice --- at that stage we still had Smith).
While players can say "I'll decide at the end of the year" (which usually means, "I'm going"), the Club can say, "Well, sorry, we need to know now" and if they don't get a commitment the Coach can do what he thinks is best for the Club/team.

Without getting into a long winded argument there are a couple of points that need to be made. There are quite strict rules in relation to player contracts and coercion. You cannot in any way shape or form push a player into signing a contract. The players contracts are lodged with the AFL and all expire on the same day, at or near the end of the trading period.

Again, Adelaide could have spoken to PD and discussed a trade a year earlier to Melbourne. It still has to be his decision. You cannot force or coerce the player to go.

About the only real action the club can legitimately make is to choose not to pick them to play. A player is perfectly within their rights to put off any contract discussion until the end of the season.

 

[CrowBloke]

Sorry folks, but this Clarkson thing is a nonsense.
...
We knew your second quarters all year were unbelievable (percentage of 180). We also knew if we were within 2-3 goals at halftime then we were in with a massive show as we had been smashing teams in the second half.

Are you Hardwick, Clarkson, or one of the playing group? If yes, thanks for the insider info, which suggests that the win was inevitable, based on the past.

If not, then your post is laughable, if not ridiculous, and here's why.
How would you know what Hardwick/Clarkson/ the players "knew"?
How would you know what Hardwick and Clarkson were talking about just after the PF and during the week? Do you think for a second that Hardwick didn't ask Clarkson for some ideas?

Did they also know that in every 2017 game where the Crows led at quarter time, they won? Better give up, then, eh? (which is just as silly)

Stick to emphatic and/or orgiastic posting in your Board, mate, and leave the knowing up to Hardwick and his players.

 

[TheLeftFist8]

In another thread I speculated that Walsh should've taken Dangerfield aside at the start of 2015 (PD's last contracted year) and told him to sign on, or rack off to Melbourne for the two first-round draft picks they offered. We'll probably never know if that happened or not, too.
With Lever, around your suggested Round 20, Pyke could've said similar --- sign on or rack off. If Pyke knew he was leaving, he would've had time to put more games, say, into Keath (or another defender of his choice --- at that stage we still had Smith).
While players can say "I'll decide at the end of the year" (which usually means, "I'm going"), the Club can say, "Well, sorry, we need to know now" and if they don't get a commitment the Coach can do what he thinks is best for the Club/team.

I'd add that if it suits the club they should announce it asap that the player is intending on leaving...put it out in the open.

Their effort and performance will be scrutinised for what it is, the rest of the club doesn't have to pretend. If they perform (like Dangerfield did and Sloane would) they stay in, if they are a cancerous influence and spud up like Lever did they get dropped.

 

[CrowBloke]

You cannot in any way shape or form push a player into signing a contract.

Quite right, but a Coach and/or List manager can discuss the future with a player, and make a case for them to stay.

About the only real action the club can legitimately make is to choose not to pick them to play.

Yep.
Walshy would have been brave indeed to take that action with Diverfield. To be fair, PD played his guts out for the Crows in 2015; Club Champion, but his heart and mind were in Moggs Creek.
As for Lever, I tend to agree with this:

... if they are a cancerous influence and spud up like Lever did they get dropped.

I'm guessing that Pyke had a good idea of Lever's intentions and Pyke's dilemma would have been:
--- we're gonna be Top 4; do I play a gun defender whose heart is not with the team and causing some disunity, or
--- do I select and persevere with another defender who'll play his guts out for us and be around in 2018-19?
I'd choose the latter every day and I'll bet the playing group would prefer that, too.

 

[GROTTO]

Sorry folks, but this Clarkson thing is a nonsense.

+1

Not sure who brought it up, but its embarrassing. The Tigers were the better team on the day.

 

[CrowBloke]

I honestly think our guys just thought we would win and did not respect the opposition.

I agree that this is a major factor and showed itself at various times during the season, not just the GF eg I'd say we went down to Hobart thinking "We-should-win-this" vs NM. Ditto when we'd reached 29 points up in the second quarter against Melbourne. Ditto in the replay vs Hawthorn at AO --- "We're at home, we beat this mob before, we-should-win-this".
It's hubris. Arrogance (not the good kind). Complacency. It's a mental weakness that causes effort to fall off. Sometimes the Crows become enamoured of their own beautiful game and revert to flashy, champagne footy, handballs over the head, one bounce too many, natty little floaty kicks to teammates instead of hard stab passes etc.
The hallmark of a formidable Premiership side is mental toughness which creates ruthlessness.
Hawthorn 2013-15, Brisbane 2001-03 and some of the Sydney, Geelong and West Coast teams this century would have gone down to Hobart in top position and belted NM. Next week @ 29 points up they would have put their boots on the Dees' throats and won going away by 10+ goals.

In 2001-03, I used to think "Oh hell, we've got Brisbane this week". I doubt that the Scott twins, Clarkson, Longmire and now Hardwick think that about us.
Hawthorn found ways to win from near-impossible situations which the Crows do not. The closest the Crows came to that was ONCE, vs the Pies.

I don't question Pyke's mental toughness, but how he toughens up the Crows mentally is his biggest challenge.

 

[Boston tiger]

Its probably somewhere in between. Clarkson was interviewed in the lead up to the game and mentioned that they meet up weekly and have done for a long time. It was insinuated Clarkson was in a mentoring type role. And no problem there. If you've got access to any resources that can give an advantage, why not utilise them.

Clarkson would have been concentrating fairly hard trying to make the eight.

 

[CrowBloke]

Clarkson would have been concentrating fairly hard trying to make the eight.

Clarkson and Hardwick were seen in a one-on-one huddle after the PF. You'd have to say they were talking about the GF, surely?

 

[pirate bob]

Clarkson would have been concentrating fairly hard trying to make the eight.

I am just repeating what he spoke of in the interview. Mentoring is far more common in business than most people realise. It doesn't mean that they were discussing or plotting game plans, and it wasn't my intension to imply they were. From his interview he didn't shy away from the fact they did discuss football.

Its no secret we regularly lose games to both Geelong and North Melbourne. And the Scott brothers have been quite open about discussing tactics in the week leading up our games.

I am in no way shape or form trying to diminish Richmond's or Hardwick's achievements. You played a great game and as far as I'm concerned deserved winners. And I'm certainly not trying to imply that Clarkson was instrumental in Richmond's win, because that would be blatant B/S.

 

[Boston tiger]

Clarkson and Hardwick were seen in a one-on-one huddle after the PF. You'd have to say they were talking about the GF, surely?

So what ? Nothing changed. Might have been asking Dimma how Richmond got so good after the Geelong game.

 

[fairfooty]

Reading between the lines and observing some body language over the past week or two at least, there has been reason for one to suspect there has been trouble in the camp, which has now been confirmed. Crows staff and leadership need to make sure this is dealt with before next year, as it, along with selections which may have been related, no doubt was a factor in our Grand final performance.

Yep I had it confirmed this morning too. Apparently the leadership group asked Pykey that Lever not play the grand final as they all knew he was leaving. It was creating tremendous ill feeling. Then to cap it off Lever's father was behaving like a loud mouthed tool in front of the players before the game, bad mouthing the Club and Lever's offer. Which then explains the apparent sniping and finger pointing as they went down the race at half time and the argument in the rooms at half time. If this is half true, the game was lost before it started.

 

[King Elvis]

So what ? Nothing changed. Might have been asking Dimma how Richmond got so good after the Geelong game.

It doesn’t matter either way mate.

You guys smashed us, and it started with the coaches box.

If Hardwick was smart enough to draft Clarko in for some tactical input, then good on him - he made it happen.

Maybe we should’ve asked Blighty for some help!

 

[GROTTO]

Yep I had it confirmed this morning too. Apparently the leadership group asked Pykey that Lever not play the grand final as they all knew he was leaving. It was creating tremendous ill feeling. Then to cap it off Lever's father was behaving like a loud mouthed tool in front of the players before the game, bad mouthing the Club and Lever's offer. Which then explains the apparent sniping and finger pointing as they went down the race at half time and the argument in the rooms at half time. If this is half true, the game was lost before it started.

If this is remotely true, then Pyke dropped the ball badly by selecting Lever for the GF. Should have seen the bigger picture. Club before player.

I have said many times, something was off about the Crows performance on GF day and ffs they chose the worst day to have issues.

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

Did the Lever situation in part cause us to go tall? He's obviously in our best team but it would have been rough to force out loyal, brave clubman Andy Otten or someone who has done everything right like Hartigan or Kelly.

Left us with two choices:

1) Dump a player loved and respected by his team mates to play a guy who's told us he's taking the cash and saying goodbye.

Or 2) save ourselves a tough call and compromise our structure?

 

[pirate bob]

Did the Lever situation in part cause us to go tall? He's obviously in our best team but it would have been rough to force out loyal, brave clubman Andy Otten or someone who has done everything right like Hartigan or Kelly.

Left us with two choices:

1) Dump a player loved and respected by his team mates to play a guy who's told us he's taking the cash and saying goodbye.

Or 2) save ourselves a tough call and compromise our structure?

Or just a case of the other obvious smaller 2 replacements were perhaps either still a bit of an unknown quantity or still too underdone? (Hampton or Milera)

Both Smith and McGovern going down threw a massive spanner in the works

 

[GROTTO]

Did the Lever situation in part cause us to go tall? He's obviously in our best team but it would have been rough to force out loyal, brave clubman Andy Otten or someone who has done everything right like Hartigan or Kelly.

Left us with two choices:

1) Dump a player loved and respected by his team mates to play a guy who's told us he's taking the cash and saying goodbye.

Or 2) save ourselves a tough call and compromise our structure?

Strong Clubs and tough coaches makes good decisions for the Club.

Even before the game, a lot of posters in here were right about Otten not being included as it will make us too tall and slow.

In hindsight, dropping Lever and Otten may have at least made the margin of the loss a lot more flattering.

 

[GROTTO]

Or just a case of the other obvious smaller 2 replacements were perhaps either still a bit of an unknown quantity or still too underdone? (Hampton or Milera)

Both Smith and McGovern going down threw a massive spanner in the works

This is what shits me though, why wasnt Hampton and Milera not played in games where we had already secured top 2 berth, like against Sydney and WC???

This was the perfect opportunity to trial a few players.

 

[pirate bob]

This is what shits me though, why wasnt Hampton and Milera not played in games where we had already secured top 2 berth, like against Sydney and WC???

This was the perfect opportunity to trial a few players.

I get that they had their plans and reasons for selection. Its hard to ignore that part of the loss could be attributed to lack of match fit depth. Depending on who is picked up over the trade / draft period, I really hope we start get some games into the younger blokes.

 

[FrustratedTiger]

If this is remotely true, then Pyke dropped the ball badly by selecting Lever for the GF. Should have seen the bigger picture. Club before player.

I have said many times, something was off about the Crows performance on GF day and ffs they chose the worst day to have issues.

If it is remotely true, Pyke did the right thing by selecting him. You can't have the players telling the coaches who to select.

 

[GROTTO]

If it is remotely true, Pyke did the right thing by selecting him. You can't have the players telling the coaches who to select.

Yes you can if its the leadership group and a particular player is causing disharmony.

Dont stress, there is a myriad of reasons why we lost, Tigers being better on the day is one of them.

Why are you even here?

 

[The Karma Bus]

If it is remotely true, Pyke did the right thing by selecting him. You can't have the players telling the coaches who to select.

Sorry, you know the ins and outs of the club, what they knew, conversations they'd had, promises they'd made to each other etc.
That players agreed to accept less cash to keep the group together.
And maybe they've had enough of guys leaving.

 

[Interloperer]

If this is remotely true, then Pyke dropped the ball badly by selecting Lever for the GF. Should have seen the bigger picture. Club before player.

I have said many times, something was off about the Crows performance on GF day and ffs they chose the worst day to have issues.

If it was Blight, the players requesting Lever not play would be delisted at the end of the year.

 

[GROTTO]

If it was Blight, the players requesting Lever not play would be delisted at the end of the year.

Im not sure about that. Blight would have seen the player unrest and the fact that a player wanted to abandon the Club already at least midway of this season.

The players took salary sacrifices to keep the playing group together.