Were West Coast really a 'state team' in the early 90s?

[iameviljez]

So much easier joining a league watered down on club talent a decade later that has salary cap in place and 15 existing clubs evened out than the time of 1987 when less clubs with the top teams much stronger lists to compete against as talent more concentrated on the top super clubs that not been reeled in by salary caps yet and drafting measures new to the league.

Two points:
1) I agree with you, the Bears were on a hiding to nothing.
2) Perhaps the usage of the comma wouldn't kill?

 

[iameviljez]

Any of Brisbane/WC/Adelaide/Port/Freo could've been given the same concessions as GWS and would've sucked. The draft only really took hold as the list building mechanism in the late 90s.

Totally agree. Check out the hit/miss rate of the top ten picks on a year by year basis, I reckon you'd probably see a distinct improvement every five years or so. Recruitment has just gotten so much better than it was.

 

[footyfan1978]

Two points:
1) I agree with you, the Bears were on a hiding to nothing.
2) Perhaps the usage of the comma wouldn't kill?

ha ha
Agreed on the second point.
It would kill. I am an outlaw to comma's

 

[Scotland]

Brisbane Bear's entry concessions

• Find you own ******* way.

The VFL ****ed up the entry of the Bears big time, but let's be honest - all they wanted was the $4m.

 

[footyfan1978]

The VFL ****** up the entry of the Bears big time, but let's be honest - all they wanted was the $4m.

The league genuinely wanted expansion. It was the 7 to 9 clubs in financial mess that wanted the money and could not give a toss about what Bears got for players. I think the existing clubs had to nominate two of their players goto the Bears. Most of them were guys on last legs in twilight of career, being chopped, or reserve players.

It would be like starting out a team now with likes of Pops Kelly, Steve Johnson, Lids, Dale Thomas, Ryan Griffen, Jesse White, Troy Menzel, Sam Gibson, Zac Clarke, Jaksch and Mullett as your seasoned players to begin with next year and saying good luck with pick 1 for first season and after that you on your own.

 

[JackOutback]

Total ignorance.
Brisbane Bears made what Fremantle got seem like luxury concessions.
Anybody saying Brisbane Bears did not have the worst entry concessions by far must have been mentally asleep or not around then.

Good call, pretty much forgot the Bears' entry.

 

[Cold Sober]

Back then we called them the 'Steroid State'. Check out a few replays from early 91 and compare to mid 92, interesting.

 

[Forward Press]

Back then we called them the 'Steroid State'. Check out a few replays from early 91 and compare to mid 92, interesting.

You're going there? Really? Do you know which team you support? Just saying...

 

[raffrox]

Dean kemp - pick 117.

We had a good amount of players who retrospecively would have formed a large part of the state team true.

But picking up gems like that at 117 isnt “gifted”

Its astute drafting or blind good luck take your pick.

I think it was neither. I'm pretty sure there were draft concessions which meant that all clubs except for West Coast could only pick one WA player.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_VFL_draft

Dean Kemp "lasted" until he did as by that stage no one else could pick him.

 

[Scotland]

I think it was neither. I'm pretty sure there were draft concessions which meant that all clubs except for West Coast could only pick one WA player.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_VFL_draft

Dean Kemp "lasted" until he did as by that stage no one else could pick him.

There were still 15 players drafted from the WAFL and two pre-draft picks, so Kemp was effectively the 18th player picked.

 

[Always Ballin]

Back then we called them the 'Steroid State'. Check out a few replays from early 91 and compare to mid 92, interesting.

All natural. Hard work.

 

[raffrox]

There were still 15 players drafted from the WAFL and two pre-draft picks, so Kemp was effectively the 18th player picked.

The fact remains that West Coast could effectively suck dry whatever was left in the state. There was bound to be some "shrewd drafting" when you can keep on picking out of the lucky dip pretty much for as long as you like when no one else can.

 

[Forward Press]

The fact remains that West Coast could effectively suck dry whatever was left in the state. There was bound to be some "shrewd drafting" when you can keep on picking out of the lucky dip pretty much for as long as you like when no one else can.

Good luck trying that with a Perth 3 team, though.

"We'll allow you to pick the best from WA after the other 18 clubs have had their turn"

It worked back then because the draft was amateur and scouting networks were virtually non-existent. Wouldn't work now.

Yeah the Eagles benefited from the concessions (more than they were intended to, anyway), but let's not pretend that they were gifted a State team at inception which is what a lot on here seem to believe. We get it, Freo were shafted upon startup but taking it out on their rivals down the road doesn't make sense. It is what it is. Benefit of hindsight and all that...

 

[estibador]

Back then we called them the 'Steroid State'. Check out a few replays from early 91 and compare to mid 92, interesting.

Matt Barber, the eagles S&C guy during that period, later became embroiled in a doping scandal when one of his athletes was banned for steroids.

Just sayin...

 

[Damon_3388]

All natural. Hard work.

Honestly, if you look at the age profile of the list at the time (14 of the 20 players that went on to play in the 1992 GF were under 24 at the start of that season), I think there's something to this.

You've got a bunch of guys who are naturally going to get bigger and stronger as they go from teens and early 20s into their prime as footballers, especially if they're "ahead of the curve" compared to other teams in terms of preparation, training methods and loads.

I don't know the truth, but it's certainly not outside the realms of possibility that it was all done naturally.

 

[Matchu]

Misleading once again Matchu with regards to 1986-1991's predraft picks from the WAFL. Take a look at the WA players drafted before your bolded ones if it helps...

Please see the following:



The Eagles got lucky in that the concessions did not work as intended - to hobble them long enough so that the Vic clubs could still have the pick of the talent from a competition that has never recovered to its full strength before the Eagles.

We're doing this again? Okay, here we go...

In case some arent across history, the Eagles commenced with a list of 37 players v existing VFL sides which had 52.

We already established the reasoning behind this was due to West Coast not having a reserves team. There was no ill intention behind it, they just thought only having a seniors team would require less players. It was rectified after two seasons when the VFL realised it was a disadvantage. Hardly something you should keep bringing up as it didn't affect them at all in the 90s. Plus, they made the finals in 1988 with a reduced list so it can't have been as bad as you're making it out to be.

At the end of 1987, we did not participate in the draft but instead again got unrestricted access to the WAFL. The same WAFL that in the previous season had 47 players taken from it i.e. there wasnt much left.

And yet they still managed to find Langdon, McKenna and Waterman in 1987. Funny that. Any team in the VFL/AFL would be ecstatic if they managed to recruit three exceptional players like the above listed in one off season.

At the end of 1988, the Eagles got 5 priority picks (again WAFL only) and then took place in a draft that was compromised in that all the other clubs could only take 1 player each from the WAFL (huge concession )

It was compromised because the five most highly rated players from the WAFL were already drafted to West Coast before anyone else could look at WA players. The Eagles got Pyke, Sumich, Turley, Jackson and Watters from those concessions so I think it's pretty obvious West Coast picked up some very talented players (again).

In 1989, we were down to 2 pre-draft selections (compare this with Brisbane's 6 and Sydneys 4). Again, all teams were then restricted to one WAFL player, this resulted in the unusual situation of 6 of the first 9 picks being from WA. West Coast with its normal first round pick at 4 (based on finsihing 4th last in 1988) got Matera. Then players such as Brad Rowe, Mark Brayshaw, Stephen Edgar, Brad Tunbridge, Dale Kickett, Ben Allan, Gavin Rose, Peter Cransberg & Dennis Repacholi were picked up before West Coast got Tony Evans (64), Brett Heady (92), Dean Kemp (117).... So every club passed on those 3. No concession at all.

You mean the pre-draft selections that landed Brisbane the Jarman brothers? Oh wait, they never got either of them, despite attempting to draft them. Of those 12 pre-draft selections, the only guy that managed more than 15 games for his club was Ryan Turnbull. I'm sure I don't have to tell you that Turnbull played 129 games for the Eagles, was a premiership player and WAS a concession. They also got lucky with no one else picking up Dean Kemp before West Coast's post-draft concessions but I take your point that this was much less of a concession than others as every club had access to him. Another advantage West Coast got in 1989 that absolutely must be mentioned was the father-son exclusive access they were given to Ashley McIntosh. McIntosh's father, John, played over 51 games for St Kilda, which made Ashley very much eligible to be a father-son pick for the Saints but he was father-son drafted to West Coast instead. Ash ended up becoming a dual premiership player for the Eagles and played 242 games for them. Very handy concession.

1990, West Coast got 2 pre-draft picks, again, Sydney got 6 and Brisbane 5.

Again, this is so misleading. Brisbane got one noteworthy player (Darryl White) from those pre-draft selections in 1990 and Sydney got none. West Coast, on the other hand, managed to secure Glen Jakovich and Mitchell White. Both premiership players and both played over 150 games for the Eagles.

You also failed to mention West Coast got another pre-draft selection in 1991 (You know, the year they made the grand final. Totally fair, right?) Jason Ball played over 100 games for the Eagles and was a premiership player.

You've presented the information in the quotes above in an extremely misleading way. Well done.

 

[raffrox]

Good luck trying that with a Perth 3 team, though.

"We'll allow you to pick the best from WA after the other 18 clubs have had their turn"

It worked back then because the draft was amateur and scouting networks were virtually non-existent. Wouldn't work now.

Yeah the Eagles benefited from the concessions (more than they were intended to, anyway), but let's not pretend that they were gifted a State team at inception which is what a lot on here seem to believe. We get it, Freo were shafted upon startup but taking it out on their rivals down the road doesn't make sense. It is what it is. Benefit of hindsight and all that...

Taking it out?

I'm just telling it as it is which you seem to agree with anyway. The conditions were put in place for West Coast to create a team that had the majority of the state team.

Intended or otherwise.

 

[Forward Press]

Taking it out?

I'm just telling it as it is which you seem to agree with anyway. The conditions were put in place for West Coast to create a team that had the majority of the state team.

Intended or otherwise.

Exactly. Like my post stolen from someone else on the Eagles board from way back on the first page of this sordid mess - unknown or unintended by the Victorian clubs at the time, the concessions given allowed the Eagles to assemble a very strong team because it coincided with a whole bunch of talented WA youngsters coming through the ranks which the other clubs mostly ignored. The blueprint for modern AFL success using the draft.

 

[Forward Press]

We're doing this again? Okay, here we go...

You bumped the thread. You wanted some more bites, obviously. I'm not looking to 'do this again' but if you insist on peddling misinformation I will keep peddling the first post I copied in this very thread.

 

[raffrox]

Exactly. Like my post stolen from someone else on the Eagles board from way back on the first page of this sordid mess - unknown or unintended by the Victorian clubs at the time, the concessions given allowed the Eagles to assemble a very strong team because it coincided with a whole bunch of talented WA youngsters coming through the ranks which the other clubs mostly ignored. The blueprint for modern AFL success using the draft.

To be fair I havent gone through this thread in a while but what you're saying is simplifying it too much.

 

[WCE_phil]

We're doing this again? Okay, here we go...

We already established the reasoning behind this was due to West Coast not having a reserves team. There was no ill intention behind it, they just thought only having a seniors team would require less players. It was rectified after two seasons when the VFL realised it was a disadvantage. Hardly something you should keep bringing up as it didn't affect them at all in the 90s. Plus, they made the finals in 1988 with a reduced list so it can't have been as bad as you're making it out to be.


And yet they still managed to find Langdon, McKenna and Waterman in 1987. Funny that. Any team in the VFL/AFL would be ecstatic if they managed to recruit three exceptional players like the above listed in one off season.

It was compromised because the five most highly rated players from the WAFL were already drafted to West Coast before anyone else could look at WA players. The Eagles got Pyke, Sumich, Turley, Jackson and Watters from those concessions so I think it's pretty obvious West Coast picked up some very talented players (again).

You mean the pre-draft selections that landed Brisbane the Jarman brothers? Oh wait, they never got either of them, despite attempting to draft them. Of those 12 pre-draft selections, the only guy that managed more than 15 games for his club was Ryan Turnbull. I'm sure I don't have to tell you that Turnbull played 129 games for the Eagles, was a premiership player and WAS a concession. They also got lucky with no one else picking up Dean Kemp before West Coast's post-draft concessions but I take your point that this was much less of a concession than others as every club had access to him. Another advantage West Coast got in 1989 that absolutely must be mentioned was the father-son exclusive access they were given to Ashley McIntosh. McIntosh's father, John, played over 51 games for St Kilda, which made Ashley very much eligible to be a father-son pick for the Saints but he was father-son drafted to West Coast instead. Ash ended up becoming a dual premiership player for the Eagles and played 242 games for them. Very handy concession.

Again, this is so misleading. Brisbane got one noteworthy player (Darryl White) from those pre-draft selections in 1990 and Sydney got none. West Coast, on the other hand, managed to secure Glen Jakovich and Mitchell White. Both premiership players and both played over 150 games for the Eagles.

You also failed to mention West Coast got another pre-draft selection in 1991 (You know, the year they made the grand final. Totally fair, right?) Jason Ball played over 100 games for the Eagles and was a premiership player.

You've presented the information in the quotes above in an extremely misleading way. Well done.

So cutting out all the bullshit, what your saying is that we picked the right players. It becomes a huge concession not because of what it was or who else had access but because we drafted the right players.


Idiot.

 

[Forward Press]

To be fair I havent gone through this thread in a while but what you're saying is simplifying it too much.

Perhaps but the main point in my view is that that we became a State team with a bit of luck and unintended consequences of the concessions and stalling tactics. Plenty of WA stars were signed up before the Eagles entered because of the stalling (there's a big list on the first page), and with the amateurism of the draft it meant the unknown WA kids got given a go because the Vic clubs ignored them or didn't rate them as highly - and many turned out to be seriously talented.

However when some try to downplay 92/94 with 'oh well they hid their players/they had priority access to a WAFL already ravaged of talent/concessions were too generous it irks me quite a bit as you can tell.

 

[jatz14]

I think it was neither. I'm pretty sure there were draft concessions which meant that all clubs except for West Coast could only pick one WA player.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_VFL_draft

Dean Kemp "lasted" until he did as by that stage no one else could pick him.

So, every club had picked a West Aussie by then?

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

 

[kranky al]

Good call, pretty much forgot the Bears' entry.

I think it was neither. I'm pretty sure there were draft concessions which meant that all clubs except for West Coast could only pick one WA player.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_VFL_draft

Dean Kemp "lasted" until he did as by that stage no one else could pick him.

How many other clubs were there - they all had one pick / they all picked someone else.

 

[raffrox]

How many other clubs were there - they all had one pick / they all picked someone else.

This is tiring stuff. You could still keep on picking when no one else could. So no, not every club had one pick.