Play Nice First transgender player in the AFLW

[Rance2Mewtwo]

At the end of the day, I think it's the AFL managing the perception of the game.

A large portion of supporters would view the women's league as a bit of a joke, rightly or wrongly, if a transgender person who clearly looks like a large man was allowed to play.

I daresay if she was 170cm and 65kgs, she would've been approved, with everything else being equal.

Perception is crucial for a competition in its infancy.

 

[PrideOf]

Reading the various articles today, it does seem that there was considerable consultation between all parties, and none of those involved seem to have a bad word to say about the process - only people on the outside looking in.

This. I've read a handful of articles and it seemed it was a considered decision with input from the right people. Credit to Hannah for the gracious follow-up tweets too.

The only dissenting voice at this stage (bearing in mind the opinion piece writers haven't yet penned tomorrow morning's shot at publicity) is a lawyer, who thinks it's opened a can of worms. Which you'd expect a lawyer to do, being pond scum* and all that.

* Hopes Malifice isn't a lawyer-loving mod.

 

[Pessimistic]

There's any number of sports which make discriminatory rulings

International cricket for example, there's fairly lax criteria saying how you qualify to be in a certain countries team

But I don't believe you can play for Australia if you say you 'feel' Australian if no other qualifications apply

I suppose the AFL are their own worst enemy with grabbing every 'inclusive' cause but surely the have the right to make distinctions.

AFLw is designed to appeal to women. End of story

 

[Rance2Mewtwo]

No you dont get to choose her gender. Its not your life to live. She gets to choose her gender. She doesnt get to choose your gender either. The door swings both ways.

She was born a biological man. We get that. Thats a statement of objective fact. However she chooses to identify as a woman. You dont get the right to take that choice away from her, trivialse that choice or belittle her on that choice.

This isnt a question of debate. Dont do it. Its ignorant at best, and a form of discrimination at worst.

Out of curiosity, could the same logic be applied to race? Could I choose to identify as Indigenous without being genetically Indigenous because of what I've seen in my environment growing up? Sorry if this question sounds ignorant.

 

[Malifice]

Does my racial identity determine my race?

Its part of it to be sure. What 'race' or ethnicity you identify as is vital.

For ethnicity it boils down to [self identification], [acceptance by others of that ethnicity], and an element of [descent] (not necessarily biological, but almost always so).

You tick those three boxes and you're a member of that ethnicity. You can have more than one.

 

[Jugada]

Correct decision. A prerequisite for playing womens sport has to be that you are actually a woman, otherwise its completely unfair for women, and as much as some people like to think so you cant decide whether you are male or female based on how you feel. It doesn't work like that and screaming "ignorance" at people doesn't make it so

 

[AstroboyUK]

That should not be happening...

Pre-puberty? Jesus!

not that it has much to do with this AFLW, I found this statement compelling: here http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/1...sm-is-real-completely-destroys-it-with-truth/ (ignore the inflamitory article heading, watch the video.) if a child is chemically castrated pre-puberty then that is child abuse and nothing less.

As for adults who transition, gods speed and good luck to them in trying to find what works for them. Adults can choose and should be free to choose.
At the same time, the question of whether biologically born men -because they take hormone pills and/or have some cosmetic surgery -can inherit all the attributes and rights of women (including competing in womens' sport) - in areas where we cant pretend the inherent biological differences are irrelevant - I have my doubts. I'm yet to hear a convincing argument for it. Its mostly argued along the lines of something that boils down to "kindness" towards that person, irrespective of the unkindness to the other competitors and a request to ignore biological facts in order not to cause offence/foster inclusiveness. I think that's a weak argument- especially if its essentially me being asked to pretend that objective biological facts aren't real in order to achieve this. If anyone has a better case I'd be pleased to hear and consider it.

 

[Malifice]

Out of curiosity, could the same logic be applied to race? Could I choose to identify as Indigenous without being genetically Indigenous because of what I've seen in my environment growing up? Sorry if this question sounds ignorant.

The three legal critereon for determining if you belong to an ethnic group (including an Aboriginal ethnic group) are:

1) Self identity,
2) Acceptance by others of that group as you being a member, and
3) Descent (usually, but not always biolgical)

Tick those three boxes and you're a member of that ethnic group.

Its similar principle but different with gender.

 

[RobbieK]

While Hannah seems satisfied, albeit disappointed, with the process, it is bewildering to me that the AFL can decide she is eligible to play at lower levels but not at the AFLW level.

As their decision seems to largely be based on concerns about Hannah's physical size, why wouldn't this be less or a problem at the highest level of competition than it would be at lower levels?

The decision is just illogical and contradictory. Either she is eligible to play womens sport, or she isn't, yeah? If she is, let her play at whatever level she is worthy of. If she isn't, why is she allowed to compete at any level?

 

[yakka man]

I actually respect the decision that the AFL made. They couldn't easily gone along with the outside noise, but they tried to protect the integrity of the newly formed women's competition. 197cms and 100kg's is enormous. That is far bigger than the average male. I don't understand the debate and I am more liberal than most.

 

[yakka man]

While Hannah seems satisfied, albeit disappointed, with the process, it is bewildering to me that the AFL can decide she is eligible to play at lower levels but not at the AFLW level.

As their decision seems to largely be based on concerns about Hannah's physical size, why wouldn't this be less or a problem at the highest level of competition than it would be at lower levels?

The decision is just illogical and contradictory.

Possibly because of the outroar if she was banned from all leagues.

 

[The_Wookie]

While Hannah seems satisfied, albeit disappointed, with the process, it is bewildering to me that the AFL can decide she is eligible to play at lower levels but not at the AFLW level.

As their decision seems to largely be based on concerns about Hannah's physical size, why wouldn't this be less or a problem at the highest level of competition than it would be at lower levels?

The decision is just illogical and contradictory.

Difference between elite and non elite competition i believe.

 

[Malifice]

* Hopes Malifice isn't a lawyer-loving mod.

Hillariously, I'm a lawyer.

 

[ABSOLUTE MADMAN]

Its part of it to be sure. What 'race' or ethnicity you identify as is vital.

For ethnicity it boils down to [self identification], [acceptance by others of that ethnicity], and an element of [descent] (not necessarily biological, but almost always so).

You tick those three boxes and you're a member of that ethnicity. You can have more than one.

Why do others need to accept my self identification. Pretty intolerant and bigoted way to go about it IMO. Who are they to say otherwise.

 

[BlazeOfGlory]

While Hannah seems satisfied, albeit disappointed, with the process, it is bewildering to me that the AFL can decide she is eligible to play at lower levels but not at the AFLW level.

As their decision seems to largely be based on concerns about Hannah's physical size, why wouldn't this be less or a problem at the highest level of competition than it would be at lower levels?

The decision is just illogical and contradictory.

It's the part I don't get either.
Maybe they didn't wanna seem like dicks to the general public who get upset over everything they hear, so still allowed her to have involvement in the sport.

 

[Timewaster]

A victory for reality against feels. The AFLW could quickly descend into a circus and lose all drawing power as a family-friendly sport.

 

[NarniMagic]

The way I see it, it depends when you transitioned. If you did it as a child, with using puberty blockers, sure who cares.

The issue is one somebody transitions in their mid twenties, after theyve fully gone through puberty, and experienced the biological physical advantages men have over women.

You've also considering that adding to this, not obly have they gone through full puberty as a male, but theyve done it with am athletic predisposition toward their fitness to maximise their bilogical assets.

 

[Linda_Lovelace]

At the end of the day, I think it's the AFL managing the perception of the game.

A large portion of supporters would view the women's league as a bit of a joke, rightly or wrongly, if a transgender person who clearly looks like a large man was allowed to play.

I daresay if she was 170cm and 65kgs, she would've been approved, with everything else being equal.

Perception is crucial for a competition in its infancy.

Simpler than that. She has not had the surgery, still technically more a man than a woman and under the discrimination act they have an outrider that allows the sport to take the power, strength etc into account. I heard a specialist lawyer on SEN discussing it and he said its a fair ruling it was not what he expected.

That is why the AFL said they are happy to reconsider next year when she is further progressed re the gender change process ie less muscle mass.

 

[Theprofessional]

The fighter who beat Fox is now 2-3 in the UFC, so she isn't exactly tearing it up. As I've mentioned previously in this thread I'm not educated enough on this topic to lay down a ruling on what the acceptable guidelines for MtF athletes are, but if the advantage was as big as many here claim you'd have expected Fox to do a lot better than losing to the only high level opponent she faced (who herself struggles at the highest level). If she waltzed in and KO'd some big names in women's MMA (Rousey, Nunes, Holm, Shevchenko, etc.) then that would be a very strong argument. But that didn't happen, not even close.

When they fought, it was also Evans-Smith's 2nd professional fight vs. Fox's 4th professional fight. So she had more fight experience and still lost.

As for fighters having their first fight at 37 I'm sure it happens a fair bit in the lower levels that Fox was fighting in. At the top level, not so much, but you do have Yoel Romero making his UFC debut at 36. Daniel Cormier is the UFC Light-Heavyweight champion at 38, and Michael Bisping is the UFC Middleweight champion at 38. So competing at the highest level at that age is possible.

You are talking about Romero a olympian in the year 2000 who started competing in MMA in 2007 so not remotely compareable to that- or people who have been competing for 10+ years and are champions of their sport.

She walzed in at her late 30's lost one fight in controversial stances against someone who failed a drug test in their next fight and hasn't been as convincing. Furthermore, they've gone on to fight in the UFC.

The girls themselves have said that they can tell the physical difference- by the same understanding of we can't dictate opinions on people- why can't we take the girls word for it? Including Ashley Smith who said that their was an advantage DESPITE her winning. It's a large advantage maybe not always insurmountable but certainly an unfair advantage.

 

[BlazeOfGlory]

Hillariously, I'm a lawyer.

I could definitely believe that.

 

[AstroboyUK]

Scientific consensus is that in many cases, pre puberty transition is best. Scientific consensus is how science works.

There are specific puberty blocker drugs and so forth that stop a woman (born a boy) from the testosterone surge and developing a beard, body hair, muscle mass, thicker bones etc during puberty.

In addition to blocking testosterone, they can give estrogen to encourage growing natural breasts etc.

The other option is let the kid go through puberty as a boy, then try and undo the changes of puberty.

Physcially and psychologically, assiting a transgender kid through puberty as the gender they identify with is much better for the kids mental health, and cuts out a lot of problems later on.

Depends on the child. They dont just start pumping hormone blockers into a boy that gets caught playing with Barbie dolls. There is a fair bit more to it than that.

The US college of paediatricians begs to differ:
here http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/1...sm-is-real-completely-destroys-it-with-truth/ (ignore the inflamitory article heading, watch the video.) if a child is chemically castrated pre-puberty then that is child abuse and nothing less.

 

[Timewaster]

Having a 100kg former bloke running around in the AFLW would turn the comp into parody. The AFL is trying to get families to bring their girls into the game - this would put a real spanner in the works. They've already other demographic problems to deal with, why make things worse?

 

[Timewaster]

Simpler than that. She has not had the surgery, still technically more a man than a woman ...

Indeed a man in all but self-identification.

 

[Malifice]

Why do others need to accept my self identification. Pretty intolerant and bigoted way to go about it IMO. Who are they to say otherwise.

Ethncity (unlike gender) is a completely arbitrary social construct. It has no objective basis in biology.

Accordingly there needs to be a social agreement that you are what you say you are, by others of that group.

You can try and be postmodern and ignore that social construct. But then you might as well call yourself an ethnic 'Flangnozian' or whatever else you want to make up.

 

[nahnah]

Big win for equality today