Training Pre Season

[SaintsSeptember]

Great post but who is Collins ?

oops he was the guy who trained with the group, or a submarine or something.
Austin Powers is who i meant to name.

 

[Enclosed_Animal]

Because most of the time he was still better than the next best option.

Late in the year for instance Lonie was dropped off the back of consecutive 8 disposal, 4 tackle games- with some really poor disposal amongst them- while even injured Mav was still capable of having some 16-20 disposal games with 6-7 tackles. Lones then had just 11 in his other game late in the year.

Long averaged just 9 disposals (@61%), 2.5 score involvements and 3 tackles in his 4 games.

Mav averaged 16.5 disposals (@70%), 5.4 score involvements and 3.4 tackles.

Wright averaged 9 disposals.

An overly bulky and injured Mav >>> most of the other options most of the time.

He did get dropped at one stage though, so it's not like it never happened.

The sooner we move past lonie the better

Unless he comes good.

Won't happen IMO just means we are going to miss the opportunity of giving some of the younger talent a game.

Isn't he a younger player still? His 2016 was very good. He needs to get back to what he was doing the year before but he must have more opportunity than Wright and Minch still surely. He'd be up against Long and guys that specifically play the pressure forward role.

Can I just add my two cents to this as the Lonie situation gives me the absolute sh1ts (and no I am not Jacks father).

Lonie nearly won the Sandy B+F while ALSO playing 12 games in the Seniors. Long played roughly double the amount of games at Sandy and got 50 less votes. Minchi played almost the same amount of Sandy games and got half the votes.

Why does Lonie keep getting a game in the Seniors? Because he dominates games in the 2s as a MIDFIELDER. No Saints player came close to having the impact he has in the middle at Sandy. Not Koby, Dunstan, Acres or any other mid that bounces between AFL and VFL.

Last game at Sandy was 33 touches and BOG. Game before 34 touches and BOG. Kicked multiple goals too, but all from the midfield.

Then he comes into the seniors, and is stuck in a forward pocket and everyone wonders why he gets a game. All while we say, gee it would be nice to find an outside mid from somewhere.

The kid is a not a very good small forward. He has had enough chances at AFL for us to make a reasonable determination on that. We are killing his career playing him there.

Either we add him to the mid rotations in the AFL, or we say he is just too small and delist him. But for those who say he is too small, remember Caleb Daniel is 6cm shorter and going just fine (has passed 50 games and averages over 20 touches). Jade Gresham is also only about 2cm taller, but we think he will be a gun AFL mid.

We are doing the same thing to him we did to Tom Lynch and to a lesser extent Jackson Ferguson. Honestly don't blame the kid for looking at his trade options last year.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Can I just add my two cents to this as the Lonie situation gives me the absolute sh1ts (and no I am not Jacks father).

Lonie nearly won the Sandy B+F while ALSO playing 12 games in the Seniors. Long played roughly double the amount of games at Sandy and got 50 less votes. Minchi played almost the same amount of Sandy games and got half the votes.

Why does Lonie keep getting a game in the Seniors? Because he dominates games in the 2s as a MIDFIELDER. No Saints player came close to having the impact he has in the middle at Sandy. Not Koby, Dunstan, Acres or Sincs.

Last game at Sandy was 33 touches and BOG. Game before 34 touches and BOG. Kicked multiple goals too, but all from the midfield.

Then he comes into the seniors, and is stuck in a forward pocket and everyone wonders why he gets a game. All while we say, gee it would be nice to find an outside mid from somewhere.

The kid is a not a very good small forward. He has had enough chances at AFL for us to make a reasonable determination on that. We are killing his career playing him there.

Either we add him to the mid rotations in the AFL, or we say he is just too small and delist him. But for those who say he is too smallm remember Caleb Daniel is 6cm shorter and going just fine. Jade Gresham is also only 2cm taller but we think he will be a gun AFL mid.

We are doing the same thing to him we did to Tom Lynch and to Jackson Ferguson. Honestly don't blame the kid for looking at his trade options last year.

When he can win 10 contested possessions at AFL level, he's too small for what? The only thing i hear is his tackles don't stick.
He will get bigger to some extent. ( Minchington got 10 contested possessions once at age 22. )
Not writing Long off, but as of RIGHT NOW... Lonie is the better player in any role.

 

[aussierulesrules]

I posted a few times this year that I don't see why Lonie couldn't be effective on the wing. Like say Sincs.

Like Sincs might not have, I'm not sure Lones has ever played wing before, but he has a good tank and to me has the skills and smarts required, so I find it strange that if we think he's too small to play on the inside, we don't give him a go on the outside.

It's probably a bit of a miracle that we actually tried Sincs there and it worked from the get-go, otherwise he'd probably still be stuck in that revolving door in the FP.

 

[BrutThough]

Can I just add my two cents to this as the Lonie situation gives me the absolute sh1ts (and no I am not Jacks father).

Lonie nearly won the Sandy B+F while ALSO playing 12 games in the Seniors. Long played roughly double the amount of games at Sandy and got 50 less votes. Minchi played almost the same amount of Sandy games and got half the votes.

Why does Lonie keep getting a game in the Seniors? Because he dominates games in the 2s as a MIDFIELDER. No Saints player came close to having the impact he has in the middle at Sandy. Not Koby, Dunstan, Acres or Sincs.

Last game at Sandy was 33 touches and BOG. Game before 34 touches and BOG. Kicked multiple goals too, but all from the midfield.

Then he comes into the seniors, and is stuck in a forward pocket and everyone wonders why he gets a game. All while we say, gee it would be nice to find an outside mid from somewhere.

The kid is a not a very good small forward. He has had enough chances at AFL for us to make a reasonable determination on that. We are killing his career playing him there.

Either we add him to the mid rotations in the AFL, or we say he is just too small and delist him. But for those who say he is too small, remember Caleb Daniel is 6cm shorter and going just fine (has passed 50 games and averages over 20 touches). Jade Gresham is also only about 2cm taller, but we think he will be a gun AFL mid.

We are doing the same thing to him we did to Tom Lynch and to a lesser extent Jackson Ferguson. Honestly don't blame the kid for looking at his trade options last year.

First off, our VFL team was crap so it is not like he was competing against many people for the award. And lots of players dominate at VFL level but never make it at AFL level - thats nothing new and will never change. He was able to stand out playing midfield at VFL level because he was against opposition who are less developed physically than a true AFL midfielder. He would get eaten alive playing against big-bodied midfielders like Bont, Fyfe, Kennedy etc.

The reason why a small guy like Caleb Daniel is able to play well in an AFL midfield is because he was great skills and a true football brain to help counteract his deficiencies. The same this Gresh, his ability to side step opponents and his natural flash counteract that he is short. These are traits that Lonie does not have and are vital because he won't be able to use his body to intimidate opponents. Lonie is an okay footballer but he doesn't have that brilliance that someone like Gresh has shown no matter the position he is playing. Currently, Lonie tries to do flashy things but just doesnt have the ability to pull them off, and his constant borderline diving isnt helping his cause.

Also, to say no other Saints players has had impact at VFL level is also incorrect - they played well enough to earn AFL spots, and then kept their positions as they were able to transfer that form to a higher level. Lonie struggles with this, maybe because he goes back to the forward pocket, but if he wants to play in the midfield he needs to show something at AFL level like warrant this move - in the same way Sinclair showed he had the skills and silk to play up the ground while he was stuck as a small forward.

But in reality, if Lonie had something to counteract his height deficiencies and warrant a midfield spot, he would have shown it by now. It is time to accept he has 1 year to show he is capable of being an AFL quality small forward.

 

[Enclosed_Animal]

When he can win 10 contested possessions at AFL level, he's too small for what? The only thing i hear is his tackles don't stick.
He will get bigger to some extent. ( Minchington got 10 contested possessions once at age 22. )
Not writing Long off, but as of RIGHT NOW... Lonie is the better player in any role.

Agree there mate. Long is an interesting one. He will be 21 this year, which is the same age as Lonie is now.

In the AFL he averages 9 touches, 3 tackles and no score (admittedly from a very small sample). But this is actually very consistent with his VFL output.
14 touches, 1 tackle, 1 goal
13 touches, 2 tackles, 1 goal
13 touches, 1 tackle, no score
12 touches, 5 tackles, no score
12 touches, 2 tackles, 1 goal
9 touches, 1 tackle, two goals
9 touches, 3 tackles, 1 goal
7 touches, 5 tackles, no score
Watched a few of those games, and only realised he was playing when I looked at the stats. Was dropped to the Dev league at one stage too.

I acknowledge there are reasons for this, given he played a year in the NT and this was his first AFL year. And yes he had 13 touches, 5 tackles and kicked 6 goals in a VFL prelim the year before.

But he only kicked 7 goals for the rest of the 2016 VFL year and averaged under 10 touches.

At this stage (outside of one good quarter where he kicked 5 in junk time) he has been pretty consistently a player that gets about 10 touches, a couple of tackles and a maybe a goal a game at any level.

I understand people are optimistic about Long. But at this stage Lonie is a far superior footballer in every aspect.

 

[VDS66]

Along with Alex Marcou, Spiro Kourkoumelis, Wow Jones and Peter McConville.

Pretty sure they wanted to sack Hudson.

Kenny said if he goes, I go and the rest is history.

We were turning the corner early nineties and then the Winmar dispute erupted.

I reckon Stan got the job by default because Barker passed away.

 

[VDS66]

I posted a few times this year that I don't see why Lonie couldn't be effective on the wing. Like say Sincs.

Like Sincs might not have, I'm not sure Lones has ever played wing before, but he has a good tank and to me has the skills and smarts required, so I find it strange that if we think he's too small to play on the inside, we don't give him a go on the outside.

It's probably a bit of a miracle that we actually tried Sincs there, otherwise he'd probably still be stuck in that revolving door in the FP.

Jack told me that the aim in 2017 was more midfield tine.

As to why it didn't happen is anyone's guess.

That he only got 1 year speaks volumes to me.

 

[Enclosed_Animal]

Also, to say no other Saints players has had impact at VFL level is also incorrect - they played well enough to earn AFL spots, and then kept their positions as they were able to transfer that form to a higher level. Lonie struggles with this, maybe because he goes back to the forward pocket, but if he wants to play in the midfield he needs to show something at AFL level like warrant this move - in the same way Sinclair showed he had the skills and silk to play up the ground while he was stuck as a small forward.

But in reality, if Lonie had something to counteract his height deficiencies and warrant a midfield spot, he would have shown it by now. It is time to accept he has 1 year to show he is capable of being an AFL quality small forward.

I didn't say no other player had any impact at VFL level. I said that as a mid, Lonie outperformed and had more of an impact than any other Saints player when they were at VFL (Dunstan, Koby, etc - Steele was the exception). But they all played well enough to get a call up.

The difference is when the other players got called into the AFL they got time on the ball. Lonie didn't.

If he has one year to show he can be an AFL small forward then he will likely be delisted. My only point is when given any opportunity in the midfield he seems to consistently outperform his peers (despite his deficiencies).

You seem certain he cant play midfield at AFL. That is your opinion. Personally I wouldn't know if he can play midfield or not at the AFL because unlike all the other guys I mentioned I have never seen him play AFL midfield. He has never got the chance

Its like saying Jakson Ferguson was a rubbish KPD in the AFL. He was. But he never played there in his life before he played AFL, so it is little surprise he wasn't very good. But the coach said, you are big so we will play you as a KPD (even though he was a flanker). Ruined he career.

We are doing the same thing with Lonie. Small player = small forward at AFL regardless of whether you are any good there or not

 

[George]

Pretty sure they wanted to sack Hudson.

Kenny said if he goes, I go and the rest is history.

We were turning the corner early nineties and then the Winmar dispute erupted.

I reckon Stan got the job by default because Barker passed away.

We had that lull between 93-96 but we really should've gone a lot deeper in '92 and I thought we could've dominated the entire 90's decade if not for those things you speak of. But I am thankful for it because prior to '91 we were a shambles. Those Carlton boys coming over in 86/87 really turned our culture around and since then we have been a much better football club.

 

[BrutThough]

I didn't say no other player had any impact at VFL level. I said that as a mid, Lonie outperformed and had more of an impact than any other Saints player when they were at VFL (Dunstan, Koby etc). They all played well enough to get a call up.

The difference is when the other players got called into the AFL they got time on the ball. Lonie didn't.

If he has one year to show he can be an AFL small forward then he will likely be delisted. My only point is when given any opportunity in the midfield he seems to consistently outperform his peers (despite his deficiencies).

You seem certain he cant play midfield at AFL. That is your opinion. Personally I wouldn't know if he can play midfield or not at the AFL because unlike all the other guys I mentioned I have never seen him play AFL midfield. He has never got the chance

Its like saying Jakson Ferguson was a rubbish KPD in the AFL. He was. But he never played there in his life before he played AFL, so it is little surprise he wasn't very good. But the coach said, you are big so we will play you as a KPD (even though he was a flanker). Ruined he career.

We are doing the same thing with Lonie. Small player = small forward at AFL regardless of whether you are any good there or not

Lonie hasnt shown anything at AFL level to warrant playing him in the midfield at the expense of a real midfielder. With Sinclair and Gresham, they showed skills while playing in other positions to help counteract their shortness while playing in the middle. Lonie has nothing special about him and doesn't possess an elite quality like the other two. That's why whenever he comes into the senior team he plays forward pocket and that's why I am 100% certain he will never make it as a midfielder.

Also try finding a better example than Jackson Ferguson. He was a late rookie pick who never really showed anything at either level. We didnt ruin his career, he was never going to be an AFL player no matter where on the ground he played.

 

[Smoke_Me_AKipper]

Plugger came out of no where to be a star , when he first got in the side we still had Mark Jackson at full forward telling every other player to get out of the forward 50 . Hard to imagine Plugger getting an order like that lol. Fortunately Jackson was gone soon after and they settled with Plugger at full forward .

But the early 80’s was terrible for the Saints apart from those very rare times when we actually won a game . Usually about three wins for a season .

Ah yes but didnt we celebrate those 3 wins? LOL

 

[pebblesofsand]

The thing about Ben Long that people seem to miss is that he was suspended for the first two games of the season last year, but was then named emergency for the Seniors for the third round then named starting 22 for the next two games.

That to me indicates that he was doing everything right in the eyes of the selectors and they see lots of potential.

I'm expecting a big improvement from Long this year. Ferocious tackler, good game and goal sense. There's a permanent spot available on our forward line if he wants to to take it.

 

[Dr Spaceman]

Saw Paddy Mccartin at work today in a moon boot

Footage has now become available

 

[sunny3193]

Pretty sure they wanted to sack Hudson.

Kenny said if he goes, I go and the rest is history.

We were turning the corner early nineties and then the Winmar dispute erupted.

I reckon Stan got the job by default because Barker passed away.

Stan did get the job because Barker passed away.
Absolutely.

 

[Enclosed_Animal]

Lonie hasnt shown anything at AFL level to warrant playing him in the midfield at the expense of a real midfielder. With Sinclair and Gresham, they showed skills while playing in other positions to help counteract their shortness while playing in the middle. Lonie has nothing special about him and doesn't possess an elite quality like the other two. That's why whenever he comes into the senior team he plays forward pocket and that's why I am 100% certain he will never make it as a midfielder.

Also try finding a better example than Jackson Ferguson. He was a late rookie pick who never really showed anything at either level. We didnt ruin his career, he was never going to be an AFL player no matter where on the ground he played.

So why does Lonie keep getting call ups to the AFL? It is certainly not because he is any good at being a small forward. It is because he did this at VFL in his games this year:

34 touches, 2 goals (BOG)
33 touches, 2 goals (BOG)
30 touches, 8 I50s, 2 goals (BOG)
23 touches, 3 I50s, 4 R50s, 3 goals (Best Saint named)
30 touches, 2 goals (BOG)
22 touches, 7 I50s, 1 goal 3
25 touches, 5 I50s, 2 goals
And he missed our big thumpings of non VFL standard teams some players got their best stats.

Players like Koby, Acres, Weller and Dunstan all played mid at VFL and only broke 30 touches twice between them (Steele and Sincs only played one game there each so its hard to compare). All is I am saying is he outperforms many of his midfield peers when given the opportunity.

How, based on those numbers, is Lonie exclusively a small forward and not worth a 5 minute run on the ball a quarter to prove himself? Or does he have to prove his midfield skills playing defensive forward? Because that is ridiculous.

As for a better example, Tom Lynch played on the back flank at VFL. Then had to swing forward at AFL for us and struggled to adapt. Adelaide settled him in one spot at both levels. He seems to be going okay at that

 

[StCicatriz]

Can I just add my two cents to this as the Lonie situation gives me the absolute sh1ts (and no I am not Jacks father).

Lonie nearly won the Sandy B+F while ALSO playing 12 games in the Seniors. Long played roughly double the amount of games at Sandy and got 50 less votes. Minchi played almost the same amount of Sandy games and got half the votes.

Why does Lonie keep getting a game in the Seniors? Because he dominates games in the 2s as a MIDFIELDER. No Saints player came close to having the impact he has in the middle at Sandy. Not Koby, Dunstan, Acres or Sincs.

Last game at Sandy was 33 touches and BOG. Game before 34 touches and BOG. Kicked multiple goals too, but all from the midfield.

Then he comes into the seniors, and is stuck in a forward pocket and everyone wonders why he gets a game. All while we say, gee it would be nice to find an outside mid from somewhere.

The kid is a not a very good small forward. He has had enough chances at AFL for us to make a reasonable determination on that. We are killing his career playing him there.

Either we add him to the mid rotations in the AFL, or we say he is just too small and delist him. But for those who say he is too small, remember Caleb Daniel is 6cm shorter and going just fine (has passed 50 games and averages over 20 touches). Jade Gresham is also only about 2cm taller, but we think he will be a gun AFL mid.

We are doing the same thing to him we did to Tom Lynch and to a lesser extent Jackson Ferguson. Honestly don't blame the kid for looking at his trade options last year.

whilst i agree on the part in bold, the reason why Lonie doesnt get midfield time is because he cant win a one on one contest nor can he compete in the air. its not about the height, as you said there are players of a similar height who can play in there. its just that he's not suited to AFL football

the reason why gresham is successful and lonie is not at AFL level is down to their contested game. you watch when the ball is kicked high to gresham, one out with his opponent, he has a way of making sure he will at a minimum put up a contest, try bring the ball to ground or win it outright. in the same situation lonie is easily out positioned and the ball comes straight back as a turn over. now this will be where you bring up the stats comparison based on averages which will show you that lonie in some cases is better than gresham if not very very close. but if you actually watch the game and like you said, he's not very good in the role. where as gresham as been amazing in his ability to influence games. that says it all about the stats these days. which is what lonies big wrap was, great statistically in pressure acts, tackles. hence why he was ranked within the top 25 in his draft year by champion data. he's a stats footballer.

now your argument that because lonie can compete in the midfield at VFL level means he should be tried there at AFL level, i think he has and it hasnt worked, albeit an extremely small sample size. i can re-call games he attended the center square bounce. i can re-call him pushing up. the coaching group would know how he goes based on the training drills involving clearances etc.

if you want a good example of how an ineffective small forward at AFL level can absolutely dominate the state league then look at ashton hams. he's an amazing mid at that level but he would never have been an AFL level mid, because the bodies are bigger, the tempo is quicker and there's literally no place to hide. he couldnt cut it at AFL level as a small forward for the same reason. the similarities between the two are uncanny.

but going back to minch and wright. they're all in the exact same position. out of contract at the end of next season. all fringe players. all struggle for consistency. all have big weaknesses. impact on games minimal.

 

[Cleanupsoup]

Unpopular opinion:
Lonie has one of the best football brains in the club, if he can improve his skills to allow him to do what he tries to, he could become a pretty good AFL player

 

[SaintsSeptember]

The thing about Ben Long that people seem to miss is that he was suspended for the first two games of the season last year, but was then named emergency for the Seniors for the third round then named starting 22 for the next two games.

That to me indicates that he was doing everything right in the eyes of the selectors and they see lots of potential.

I'm expecting a big improvement from Long this year. Ferocious tackler, good game and goal sense. There's a permanent spot available on our forward line if he wants to to take it.

Yeah but Lonie is crap despite the same selectors giving him 12 games.

 

[SaintsSeptember]

whilst i agree on the part in bold, the reason why Lonie doesnt get midfield time is because he cant win a one on one contest nor can he compete in the air. its not about the height, as you said there are players of a similar height who can play in there. its just that he's not suited to AFL football

the reason why gresham is successful and lonie is not at AFL level is down to their contested game. you watch when the ball is kicked high to gresham, one out with his opponent, he has a way of making sure he will at a minimum put up a contest, try bring the ball to ground or win it outright. in the same situation lonie is easily out positioned and the ball comes straight back as a turn over. now this will be where you bring up the stats comparison based on averages which will show you that lonie in some cases is better than gresham if not very very close. but if you actually watch the game and like you said, he's not very good in the role. where as gresham as been amazing in his ability to influence games. that says it all about the stats these days. which is what lonies big wrap was, great statistically in pressure acts, tackles. hence why he was ranked within the top 25 in his draft year by champion data. he's a stats footballer.

now your argument that because lonie can compete in the midfield at VFL level means he should be tried there at AFL level, i think he has and it hasnt worked, albeit an extremely small sample size. i can re-call games he attended the center square bounce. i can re-call him pushing up. the coaching group would know how he goes based on the training drills involving clearances etc.

if you want a good example of how an ineffective small forward at AFL level can absolutely dominate the state league then look at ashton hams. he's an amazing mid at that level but he would never have been an AFL level mid, because the bodies are bigger, the tempo is quicker and there's literally no place to hide. he couldnt cut it at AFL level as a small forward for the same reason. the similarities between the two are uncanny.

but going back to minch and wright. they're all in the exact same position. out of contract at the end of next season. all fringe players. all struggle for consistency. all have big weaknesses. impact on games minimal.

So why is Lonie credited with a reasonable number of contested possessions.?

 

[Loading]

Whos the player with the big tribal tattoo on the bicep??

 

[BrutThough]

Unpopular opinion:
Lonie has one of the best football brains in the club, if he can improve his skills to allow him to do what he tries to, he could become a pretty good AFL player

when has a showed a football brain for you to make this assessment?

 

[Enclosed_Animal]

now your argument that because lonie can compete in the midfield at VFL level means he should be tried there at AFL level, i think he has and it hasnt worked, albeit an extremely small sample size. i can re-call games he attended the center square bounce. i can re-call him pushing up. the coaching group would know how he goes based on the training drills involving clearances etc.

if you want a good example of how an ineffective small forward at AFL level can absolutely dominate the state league then look at ashton hams. he's an amazing mid at that level but he would never have been an AFL level mid, because the bodies are bigger, the tempo is quicker and there's literally no place to hide. he couldnt cut it at AFL level as a small forward for the same reason. the similarities between the two are uncanny.

I can recall him pushing up into contests when in our forward half, but never in the middle. Regardless, we are in agreement that it is a small sample size that he has ever played in the middle.

What I am wondering is why pick him then? The only reason I can see that he gets picked is because of his midfield performances. As someone mentioned he was also told he would get more midfield time this year. The reason he was upset and looking at his options certainly had a lot to do with a lack midfield time.

Its not like we have had any midfield depth in previous years. We have a little now, but still not much. All as I am saying is on merit he has done everything he can to earn the opportunity for us to at least find out if he can play there or not.

A couple of people seem absolutely adamant he cant play there at AFL. That's their opinion. But with little to no exposed time in this role, nobody actually knows if he can or cant. They just say ridiculous things like he cant win contested ball or he isn't quick.

If we have decided to only ever play him as a small forward (because he is too small for the midfield), then why don't we let him develop that part of his game in the 2s? Then if he plays a good small forward game he can be rewarded by being asked to play the same role at AFL. That way he is being prepared to execute what he practices.

But if he is only ever going to be a small forward why train him as a mid, promise him mid time, let him dominate the midfield at VFL then play him in a forward pocket? Makes 0 sense and is unfair on the kid

 

[SaintSteele9]

Did Robbo end up in hospital after copping a slower ball from Sav?!

 

[st_trav_ofWA]

i think Lonie gets games in the AFL because in the VFL he touches the ball so many times so the hope is he can bring that to the AFL but playing as the small forward he isnt going to get those possessions ... so yes he is played out of position in the AFL but you couldnt play him in the same position in the AFL as he does in the VFL he would get destroyed he could play the Sincs Gresh spot but honestly they are better than him in those spots so you wouldnt move them to put a lesser player in their spot...
i guess we will see in the preseason games what the plan is for Lonie but my thinking is he will need to either embrace that small forward role or he will be a VFL player