Opinion Vent & Offtopic

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OB11 said:
Black was from WA, but carry on
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True that, my mistake - took it at face value that he was born in Queensland. Didn't consider he moved to WA at an early age and spent his formative footy years there.

OB11 said:
If they are the last couple spots on the list then no issue with it as a kid from QLD looks to develop and settle better (e.g. Joyce, Spencer) than a kid relocating from interstate when the difference in talent is marginal.

Clearly the first 2 picks in most drafts most years will go to interstate kids where there is a clear difference in talent.
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Absolutely. When there's a clear difference in talent (ie, early picks), you should just go for the most talented kid at that pick (unless they're Chad Wingard, screw that guy) - but when you get into the later picks, it all becomes extremely speculative, and the rawness / talent / skills are all pretty similar - so the club may as well invest in a hard-working local talent that might only be marginally less talented than an interstate choice.
 
SUNS said:
Haha :D

Best clubman in the our darts association. It is the equivalent of the brownlow. Best and fairest - Just without the best part :p
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That's not true, You can throw a mean dart!

Provided you're not aiming to not hit someone in the finger :p
 

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Mr Bods said:
GC and the other areas in our zone produces great athletes-it’s a top quality genetic pool. As more kids play (which is exactly what’s happening) the stars will come.
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To take it one step further - top 4 Queenslanders in the AFL in 2017? This is what I would have said:
  1. Dayne Zorko (Surfers Paradise/Broadbeach)
  2. Dayne Beams (Carrara/Southport)
  3. Nick Riewoldt (Broadbeach/Southport)
  4. Charlie Cameron (Mornington Island/Gulf of Carpentaria)
All from the Gold Coast's zone, yet none playing for the Suns.
 
jackenny said:
FYI, I purposefully didn't mention May due to him being from the Northern Territory. It doesn't seem right to include players from the Northern Territory when talking about the local talent our state is producing; otherwise, I'd be banging on about what a great 'local talent' we produced in Cyril Rioli. In saying that, I definitely think there's merit in what you're saying. When the Brisbane Lions were at the top of their game, they had a small handful of genuine star-studded Queensland-bred talent. It starts at grass roots football, certainly. But, we'd be waiting for a perfect storm. The Brisbane Lions had Voss, Black, and Akermanis in their team's midfield (all Queenslanders, all Brownlow medalists), simply damn lucky. Remembering, of course, that Akermanis cracked the poos and went to the Bulldogs - not 100% blemish free.

Thinking on it, putting aside list space specifically for Queensland kids could be beneficial if it's not resources devoted to immediate depth. Basically, it's devoting list spots for locals to run around in our magoos - but also giving them the chance to rise to AFL level and be put under some professional microscope, hopefully growing the game. They probably already do this, though - don't quote me on this, not entirely familiar with our magoo's list of players.
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The Lions had quite a number of premiership players from Queensland. Voss and Akermanis were the obvious ones - Black was drafted from WA with a pick from Hawthorn which the Lions obtained by trading Jon Barker who was one of the few Fitzroy players in the merger - but Clark Keating, Marcus Ashcroft, Jamie Charman, Robert Copeland, and Tim Notting are the other Queenslanders to win premierships for the Lions. 7 out of 28 premiership players
Darryl White came from NT and Brett Voss was unlucky in missing the hatrick. Chris Johnson came from Fitzroy, while Alistair Lynch had earlier been recruited from Fitzroy and Martin Pike had played for Fitzroy too. Luke Power had grown up a Fitzroy fan and Jonathan Brown was a Father/Son recruit for Fitzroy. Basically, half the players were invested in the culture of the place and the others bought in. It took ages longer than the Suns short history to achieve and it only lasted 4 seasons, but it was glorious.

By the way, Aker didn't choose to leave the Lions, they sacked him. Aker wasn't a saint, but he played his entire career for significantly less money than he could have got elsewhere for the good of the team. Naturally, he accepted media deals to augment his income. The Lions were hypocrites about paying him unders and taking offence at his media comments. It is one of the reasons I decided to switch allegiances from the Lions to GC17. As the Suns club started to form, mismanagement at the Lions made it easy to sever ties.
 
Matchu said:
To take it one step further - top 4 Queenslanders in the AFL in 2017? This is what I would have said:
  1. Dayne Zorko (Surfers Paradise/Broadbeach)
  2. Dayne Beams (Carrara/Southport)
  3. Nick Riewoldt (Broadbeach/Southport)
  4. Charlie Cameron (Mornington Island/Gulf of Carpentaria)
All from the Gold Coast's zone, yet none playing for the Suns.
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Riewoldt was in the Brisbane Lion zone 100km radius of the Gabba, but the AFL changed the rules to 50km and Big Nick went to the Saints. Beams chose the Lions for reasons of his own, just as Kurt Tippett preferred Sydney. It may have had something to do with their brothers, something the Suns have had zero luck with. Clay Cameron is somewhat of a long bow to draw as he went from Mt Isa to WA to Adelaide, so not exactly a boomerang. Chuck Dixon might as well be on that list too.
 
OB11 said:
If they are the last couple spots on the list then no issue with it as a kid from QLD looks to develop and settle better (e.g. Joyce, Spencer) than a kid relocating from interstate when the difference in talent is marginal.

Clearly the first 2 picks in most drafts most years will go to interstate kids where there is a clear difference in talent.
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And when a team is winning.
You only delist/ retire the 3 minimum players you need to draft.

So in theory we only want to be drafting 4 kids max a year.
Or our turnover will forver hurt us.
And keep the team young.

When we lose.. and your players are spuds.
You delist 6 and trade your 3 best players away for future picks.


We are the latter atm. :(
 
Ben Drever said:
And when a team is winning.
You only delist/ retire the 3 minimum players you need to draft.

So in theory we only want to be drafting 4 kids max a year.
Or our turnover will forver hurt us.
And keep the team young.

When we lose.. and your players are spuds.
You delist 6 and trade your 3 best players away for future picks.


We are the latter atm. :(
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It's glass half full again from you, Ben. The actual best case scenario is when we have a top draft prospect to spend our highest pick on, which means our best assets are locked away because the wantaway factor is so much lower. Rookie category B can be used on Academy Players so it is win-win if one of them turns out to be useful after a couple of years of NEAFL.
The thing about our high draft picks playing into form and then demanding to be traded is that those players have been the focus of jealous clubs who scouted them from the get go. Melbourne clubs have been jealous of the draft concessions the Suns and Giants received, so Richmond and Hawthorn paid overs for injury-prone players while Port paid too much for a guy we were shopping around.
This year we traded away a player most fans hate in return for a skinny kid from WA who could end up being the next Simon Black or else we break even and trade him back West in 4 years if he hasn't stuck. In the case of the former, call it it paying the Gaz investment return forward and in the latter the trade return on a 22 year old could be anything from getting a #2 back from Freo to getting a third round pick like we did for Matera.
 
17er said:
The Lions had quite a number of premiership players from Queensland. Voss and Akermanis were the obvious ones - Black was drafted from WA with a pick from Hawthorn which the Lions obtained by trading Jon Barker who was one of the few Fitzroy players in the merger - but Clark Keating, Marcus Ashcroft, Jamie Charman, Robert Copeland, and Tim Notting are the other Queenslanders to win premierships for the Lions. 7 out of 28 premiership players
Darryl White came from NT and Brett Voss was unlucky in missing the hatrick. Chris Johnson came from Fitzroy, while Alistair Lynch had earlier been recruited from Fitzroy and Martin Pike had played for Fitzroy too. Luke Power had grown up a Fitzroy fan and Jonathan Brown was a Father/Son recruit for Fitzroy. Basically, half the players were invested in the culture of the place and the others bought in. It took ages longer than the Suns short history to achieve and it only lasted 4 seasons, but it was glorious.

By the way, Aker didn't choose to leave the Lions, they sacked him. Aker wasn't a saint, but he played his entire career for significantly less money than he could have got elsewhere for the good of the team. Naturally, he accepted media deals to augment his income. The Lions were hypocrites about paying him unders and taking offence at his media comments. It is one of the reasons I decided to switch allegiances from the Lions to GC17. As the Suns club started to form, mismanagement at the Lions made it easy to sever ties.
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You left out one of the most important Queenslanders the Lions had during their triple premiership era - Mal Michael. Although he was born in PNG, he moved to Brisbane at age three and was very much a Queenslander who attended St Peter's Lutheran College and played junior footy for Morningside. The Bears had access to him in the mid-90s but decided not to pick him up and he went to Collingwood instead. The Pies then traded him home in 2000.

17er said:
Riewoldt was in the Brisbane Lion zone 100km radius of the Gabba, but the AFL changed the rules to 50km and Big Nick went to the Saints. Beams chose the Lions for reasons of his own, just as Kurt Tippett preferred Sydney. It may have had something to do with their brothers, something the Suns have had zero luck with. Clay Cameron is somewhat of a long bow to draw as he went from Mt Isa to WA to Adelaide, so not exactly a boomerang. Chuck Dixon might as well be on that list too.
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  • Nick Riewoldt got very close to joining the Suns back in their inaugural year in the AFL but thought the Saints were on the cusp of a premiership after two successive grand finals so he decided to stay.
  • Tippett likewise was very close to joining GC in 2012 but changed his mind when the then premiership winning Swans chased him a few days after their GF win.
  • The Suns had access to Dayne Beams in 2008 but couldn't convince him to forego the draft and spend two years in the TAC Cup/VFL.
  • Gold Coast also had access to Claye Beams in 2010 but weren't interested in recruiting him. Perhaps Dayne Beams would be running around in the red and gold now had they drafted Claye back in the day.
  • The Suns actually drafted Dayne Zorko in 2011 and instantly traded him to the Lions. Possibly the biggest recruiting blunder in the club's history.
  • Charlie Cameron spent his childhood in Mornington Island (Gold Coast's zone) and then his teenage years in Brisbane. He was a part of the Lions academy program for six months and played Aussie rules for Marist so it's a bit rich to claim he is anything other than a Queenslander. However, it's not debatable that his hometown is most definitely a part of the Suns' zone.
  • Charlie Dixon had some issues while with the Suns (remember the story about drinking the night before games?) so they got rid of him mostly to improve the culture. In an ideal world, Dicko would have never left and the Suns would have had an extremely imposing forward line, but it is what it is.
From reading the above points it's pretty obvious the Suns have been a bit unlucky with how things have played out but some of it is self inflicted also. I think it's also evident that the Gold Coast has a pretty good history with producing AFL players for a small city that many people consider 'rugby league territory'. So I think it's just a matter of time before the Suns stumble upon some local superstars and I think Bailey Scott could be the first of a wave of exceptional local talent over the next 5-10 years.
 

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Matchu said:
You left out one of the most important Queenslanders the Lions had during their triple premiership era - Mal Michael. Although he was born in PNG, he moved to Brisbane at age three and was very much a Queenslander who attended St Peter's Lutheran College and played junior footy for Morningside. The Bears had access to him in the mid-90s but decided not to pick him up and he went to Collingwood instead. The Pies then traded him home in 2000.


  • Nick Riewoldt got very close to joining the Suns back in their inaugural year in the AFL but thought the Saints were on the cusp of a premiership after two successive grand finals so he decided to stay.
  • Tippett likewise was very close to joining GC in 2012 but changed his mind when the then premiership winning Swans chased him a few days after their GF win.
  • The Suns had access to Dayne Beams in 2008 but couldn't convince him to forego the draft and spend two years in the TAC Cup/VFL.
  • Gold Coast also had access to Claye Beams in 2010 but weren't interested in recruiting him. Perhaps Dayne Beams would be running around in the red and gold now had they drafted Claye back in the day.
  • The Suns actually drafted Dayne Zorko in 2011 and instantly traded him to the Lions. Possibly the biggest recruiting blunder in the club's history.
  • Charlie Cameron spent his childhood in Mornington Island (Gold Coast's zone) and then his teenage years in Brisbane. He was a part of the Lions academy program for six months and played Aussie rules for Marist so it's a bit rich to claim he is anything other than a Queenslander. However, it's not debatable that his hometown is most definitely a part of the Suns' zone.
  • Charlie Dixon had some issues while with the Suns (remember the story about drinking the night before games?) so they got rid of him mostly to improve the culture. In an ideal world, Dicko would have never left and the Suns would have had an extremely imposing forward line, but it is what it is.
From reading the above points it's pretty obvious the Suns have been a bit unlucky with how things have played out but some of it is self inflicted also. I think it's also evident that the Gold Coast has a pretty good history with producing AFL players for a small city that many people consider 'rugby league territory'. So I think it's just a matter of time before the Suns stumble upon some local superstars and I think Bailey Scott could be the first of a wave of exceptional local talent over the next 5-10 years.
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Some nice insights there, although some of it is rather tenuous. You can't blame Dayne Beams for not wanting to risk his future when he had some of the biggest clubs vying for his services and his career choices since have been pretty solid too. Charlie Cameron also chose a different path into the AFL and clearly chose the Lions as his destination in QLD. Tippett and Riewoldt were probably the most written about potential Suns, but the lure of GFs was always going to be a tough choice and I believe that money was a contributing factor too.

I didn't overlook Mal Michael, I just left him out given his PNG heritage. He was born at a time when PNG was a territory of Australia and moved after their independence. He probably deserves to be mentioned because the Lions clearly had a recruitment policy for local players and continue to do so. They are quite a bit better at it than the Suns too.

The Lions slide down the ladder can be attributed to two main things: Fevola and the Suns. Fev's recruitment and the Lions' policy of bringing in recycled players to boost their chances destroyed their list and opened the door for players to walk away, not to mention the wasted money on Fev when his contract had to be paid out. When Brown and Fevola played together the Lions were undefeated, however, both were injured a lot then Fev got sacked.

The Suns arrival hurt the Lions more than any other club with the recruitment of Brennan and Rischitelli as well as the compromised drafts and zone selections. There will be a day where QLD teams can aspire to having 25% of their lists coming from their own State, it is just that the AFL needed to bring in GC17 for it to be possible as the prospect of the Lions having 20 odd local players in a one team State would have been unfair. Based on current growth and with better scouting and recruitment the Suns can become the dominant team in Queensland just like the Sharks have been for over 30 years in the QAFL.
 
17er said:
Some nice insights there, although some of it is rather tenuous. You can't blame Dayne Beams for not wanting to risk his future when he had some of the biggest clubs vying for his services and his career choices since have been pretty solid too. Charlie Cameron also chose a different path into the AFL and clearly chose the Lions as his destination in QLD. Tippett and Riewoldt were probably the most written about potential Suns, but the lure of GFs was always going to be a tough choice and I believe that money was a contributing factor too.

I didn't overlook Mal Michael, I just left him out given his PNG heritage. He was born at a time when PNG was a territory of Australia and moved after their independence. He probably deserves to be mentioned because the Lions clearly had a recruitment policy for local players and continue to do so. They are quite a bit better at it than the Suns too.

The Lions slide down the ladder can be attributed to two main things: Fevola and the Suns. Fev's recruitment and the Lions' policy of bringing in recycled players to boost their chances destroyed their list and opened the door for players to walk away, not to mention the wasted money on Fev when his contract had to be paid out. When Brown and Fevola played together the Lions were undefeated, however, both were injured a lot then Fev got sacked.

The Suns arrival hurt the Lions more than any other club with the recruitment of Brennan and Rischitelli as well as the compromised drafts and zone selections. There will be a day where QLD teams can aspire to having 25% of their lists coming from their own State, it is just that the AFL needed to bring in GC17 for it to be possible as the prospect of the Lions having 20 odd local players in a one team State would have been unfair. Based on current growth and with better scouting and recruitment the Suns can become the dominant team in Queensland just like the Sharks have been for over 30 years in the QAFL.
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I don't blame D.Beams either. He was clearly ready to enter the AFL in 2009 so why waste two extra years in the lower leagues? Instead of wasting the 2010 season playing for Gold Coast in the VFL, he played 25 senior AFL games for the Pies and won an AFL premiership. Despite that, it doesn't change the fact that the Suns had access to him if they were able to convince him to forego the draft. Rory Thompson is an example of a player that was also on the radars of several AFL teams leading into the 2008 draft but Gold Coast were able to convince him to forego the draft.

I think Mal Michael definitely deserves a mention. He moved to Brisbane when he was three and spent the vast majority of his upbringing in Queensland unlike Michael Voss who moved to Beenleigh when he was 11 years old, yet is still considered one of Queensland's greatest products.

There is enough talent in Queensland for the Suns and Lions to co-exist while also filling 25-50% of their lists with talented locals. In reality, we're talking about 40-50 players from a state population of just under 5 million. It's just important that junior participation continues to grow, the pathways are clear and the retention policies are strong.
 
Matchu said:
I don't blame D.Beams either. He was clearly ready to enter the AFL in 2009 so why waste two extra years in the lower leagues? Instead of wasting the 2010 season playing for Gold Coast in the VFL, he played 25 senior AFL games for the Pies and won an AFL premiership. Despite that, it doesn't change the fact that the Suns had access to him if they were able to convince him to forego the draft. Rory Thompson is an example of a player that was also on the radars of several AFL teams leading into the 2008 draft but Gold Coast were able to convince him to forego the draft.

I think Mal Michael definitely deserves a mention. He moved to Brisbane when he was three and spent the vast majority of his upbringing in Queensland unlike Michael Voss who moved to Beenleigh when he was 11 years old, yet is still considered one of Queensland's greatest products.

There is enough talent in Queensland for the Suns and Lions to co-exist while also filling 25-50% of their lists with talented locals. In reality, we're talking about 40-50 players from a state population of just under 5 million. It's just important that junior participation continues to grow, the pathways are clear and the retention policies are strong.
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Population size doesn't really make a difference. SA and WA are far smaller than QLD, yet they dwarf QLD in term of drafted players and they are only able to support 2 teams. I do agree with you though, the game is growing against the other 3 footy codes. 30 years ago Labrador Under 11s had to travel to Beenleigh and Coolangatta to get a game, while nowadays they probably have 5 Under 11s teams and twice as many clubs.

I was a member of the Tigers team that thrashed Surfers Paradise Demons twice in the regular season before facing them in the Grand Final. The Demons had a pair of ring-ins who teamed up in the ruck and dominated hitouts all day. The match actually went to overtime, but they pinched it with a goal to their huge rucks. Aaron and Clark Keating played basketball and were registered to play footy once their rep commitments were finished. Aaron went on to play in the 1997 Crows GF win despite only playing 3 AFL games prior as St Kilda had lost all their ruckmen - brilliant strategy. Mr September, Clark Keating, was the other brother who would go on to become the best finals ruckmen of the modern era. He was brilliant anyway, but in finals he was sublime and the stats show he rose to the occasion. The AFL introduced the ruck circle to counter Crackers IMHO
 
I see Freos pick 2 just extended his contract to 4 years, good news story for them.

I feel like we owe Freo a punch to the anus with
1. the lowballing on Harley admittedly that is more a win / win now but they didn’t know he would miss so much football
2. Screwing us for pick 2, while giving nothing for Matera

In all the cases above we shot ourselves in the foot ( telling the world we would trade Harley, telling Weller we would get the deal done) but they have shown no compassion, what do the rest of you feel?
 
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Yeah
Wont be any love lost at the trade table in years to come if they come knocking for a deal
Just as an aside and for future consideration- how painful is an anus punch?
It seems it would be a technically challenging blow to land requiring a rather complicated set-up at the very least
 
SandyToes said:
Yeah
Wont be any love lost at the trade table in years to come if they come knocking for a deal
Just as an aside and for future consideration- how painful is an anus punch?
It seems it would be a technically challenging blow to land requiring a rather complicated set-up at the very least
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Takes years of training at Mardi gras
 
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