Training Pre Season

[austinnn]

I've said this before, but for me it's not how good we are, but how we match up against the opposition. For me the guys in our team that we often talk about as our leading lights probably will be guns for the club, but I'm concerned with how well they match up with the guns of the top 10 teams.

I don't have enough time or analytical nous to actually do that comparison, and to be fair it does involve a significant amount of speculation, but my overall feeling is that unless we see rapid, sustained and marked improvement from the significant players on our team, we'll have a really hard time breaking into the top 6 on players alone.

This is not to say that our coaching, or teamwork, or effort/desire or whatever factors you can link success to won't push us into that top bracket on the ladder, but other teams have more elite talent both established and coming through that will stand between us and domination of the comp.

Hope that I'm wrong. It's not a very informed view, so I could easily be typing out of my exhaust fan, but when I read us talking up our players, I always wonder "Yeah, but what about the (insert position player) at (insert club)?"

 

[sunny3193]

I've said this before, but for me it's not how good we are, but how we match up against the opposition. For me the guys in our team that we often talk about as our leading lights probably will be guns for the club, but I'm concerned with how well they match up with the guns of the top 10 teams.

I don't have enough time or analytical nous to actually do that comparison, and to be fair it does involve a significant amount of speculation, but my overall feeling is that unless we see rapid, sustained and marked improvement from the significant players on our team, we'll have a really hard time breaking into the top 6 on players alone.

This is not to say that our coaching, or teamwork, or effort/desire or whatever factors you can link success to won't push us into that top bracket on the ladder, but other teams have more elite talent both established and coming through that will stand between us and domination of the comp.

Hope that I'm wrong. It's not a very informed view, so I could easily be typing out of my exhaust fan, but when I read us talking up our players, I always wonder "Yeah, but what about the (insert position player) at (insert club)?"

Good argument.
Organic growth is always relative.
With the fourth youngest and second least experienced list, we should expect significant and above industry average growth.
Unfortunately the counter argument is: but it’s from a low base....

So it’s reasonable that we see growth in our team, the key will be if that growth moves us relative to our near competitors in the short term and to the upper echelon in the longer term.

Crystal ball needed.

 

[hayes]

Still think you lack a true elite mid.

Steele will never be JPK

Seb Ross however has potential to be a gun

Billings will be / is fast becoming the same feared type as Chad & Toby

Jack Steven solid citizen but never gonna be elite

Armitage... 2 levels below elite

Acres is my pick of the Saints see Fyfe. Just needs to have someone train with him and push him to top 0.01% elite fitness and strength levels

That's a horrific description of Steven. If he's a solid citizen then so was Dane Swan.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Good argument.
Organic growth is always relative.
With the fourth youngest and second least experienced list, we should expect significant and above industry average growth.
Unfortunately the counter argument is: but it’s from a low base....

Is it from a low base though? Last year we won 12 games and this year we won 11 (from a much harder draw), so I would have thought it's from a medium base. Teams like Carlton and Brisbane are the ones coming from the low bases.

 

[AFLOnline]

Jeez rors is generally an ok poster but that sobfest was cringe

 

[AFLOnline]

Can I just add my two cents to this as the Lonie situation gives me the absolute sh1ts (and no I am not Jacks father).

Lonie nearly won the Sandy B+F while ALSO playing 12 games in the Seniors. Long played roughly double the amount of games at Sandy and got 50 less votes. Minchi played almost the same amount of Sandy games and got half the votes.

Why does Lonie keep getting a game in the Seniors? Because he dominates games in the 2s as a MIDFIELDER. No Saints player came close to having the impact he has in the middle at Sandy. Not Koby, Dunstan, Acres or any other mid that bounces between AFL and VFL.

Last game at Sandy was 33 touches and BOG. Game before 34 touches and BOG. Kicked multiple goals too, but all from the midfield.

Then he comes into the seniors, and is stuck in a forward pocket and everyone wonders why he gets a game. All while we say, gee it would be nice to find an outside mid from somewhere.

The kid is a not a very good small forward. He has had enough chances at AFL for us to make a reasonable determination on that. We are killing his career playing him there.

Either we add him to the mid rotations in the AFL, or we say he is just too small and delist him. But for those who say he is too small, remember Caleb Daniel is 6cm shorter and going just fine (has passed 50 games and averages over 20 touches). Jade Gresham is also only about 2cm taller, but we think he will be a gun AFL mid.

We are doing the same thing to him we did to Tom Lynch and to a lesser extent Jackson Ferguson. Honestly don't blame the kid for looking at his trade options last year.

Who is Jackson Ferguson

 

[JG22]

Who is Jackson Ferguson

Future hall of famer

 

[toxic]

That's a horrific description of Steven. If he's a solid citizen then so was Dane Swan.

Maybe Solid Citizen was not exact, certainly no knock on Jack i don't see him as elite.

Would he be ranked in the top 20mids? Top 30 mids? In the comp.
Curious as to where you see him

 

[Stewart66]

Still think you lack a true elite mid.

Steele will never be JPK

Seb Ross however has potential to be a gun

Billings will be / is fast becoming the same feared type as Chad & Toby

Jack Steven solid citizen but never gonna be elite

Armitage... 2 levels below elite

Acres is my pick of the Saints see Fyfe. Just needs to have someone train with him and push him to top 0.01% elite fitness and strength levels

With respect Jack Steven is elite was injured last year with Ribs just lacked support .

Acres has everything endurance , power , just needs to not switch off during games very lanconic and requires
to be played in stoppages not sitting on the pine.

Freeman was going fantastic last year , deserved opportunity then got injured ankle .

Think you might be underrating a bloke called Dunstan too.

We are work in progress ...rapt with Rucks, Forwards , Backs we have on list

 

[pebblesofsand]

Still think you lack a true elite mid.

Steele will never be JPK

Seb Ross however has potential to be a gun

Billings will be / is fast becoming the same feared type as Chad & Toby

Jack Steven solid citizen but never gonna be elite

Armitage... 2 levels below elite

Acres is my pick of the Saints see Fyfe. Just needs to have someone train with him and push him to top 0.01% elite fitness and strength levels

Pick 7 AFL draft 2017.

Edit - I just had another look at his highlights package - jeez he's going to be a beauty!!!!



On K107 using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Diehard Saint]

Maybe Solid Citizen was not exact, certainly no knock on Jack i don't see him as elite.

Would he be ranked in the top 20mids? Top 30 mids? In the comp.
Curious as to where you see him

Can’t really judge him on last season... was just a little bit hindered by a punctured lung!

 

[sunny3193]

Is it from a low base though? Last year we won 12 games and this year we won 11 (from a much harder draw), so I would have thought it's from a medium base. Teams like Carlton and Brisbane are the ones coming from the low bases.

Ah, that’s the debate....
And why an accurate understanding of our list health and maturity by our key decision makers is crucial.

 

[toxic]

Can’t really judge him on last season... was just a little bit hindered by a punctured lung!

I'm not judging him on 2017 alone.

More looking at his past 5 years as a whole type conversation point

 

[PaddysurDaddy]

Still think you lack a true elite mid.

Steele will never be JPK

Seb Ross however has potential to be a gun

Billings will be / is fast becoming the same feared type as Chad & Toby

Jack Steven solid citizen but never gonna be elite

Armitage... 2 levels below elite

Acres is my pick of the Saints see Fyfe. Just needs to have someone train with him and push him to top 0.01% elite fitness and strength levels

JPK was never going to be JPK

 

[toxic]

With respect Jack Steven is elite was injured last year with Ribs just lacked support .

Acres has everything endurance , power , just needs to not switch off during games very lanconic and requires
to be played in stoppages not sitting on the pine.

Freeman was going fantastic last year , deserved opportunity then got injured ankle .

Think you might be underrating a bloke called Dunstan too.

We are work in progress ...rapt with Rucks, Forwards , Backs we have on list

I think Dunstan will be underrated by the average afl supporter for his career tbh.

 

[Sab22]

Sinclair - Steele - Steven
Longer - Ross - Armitage

Would like to think that midfield is very good when on form and fit. Steven on the wings, gives a much needed outside speed.

Dunstan, Newnes, Acres, Billings, Savage all rotating. Add Mav and Gresh.

Really think our chances of finals relies on the likes of Steele, Dunstan, Acres, Billings, Gresham, Roberton, A FIT STEVEN and ARMITAGE

 

[toxic]

JPK was never going to be JPK

JPK was born JPK, was never going to be anyone else

 

[VDS66]

Steven is A but not elite...

 

[King_Steele]

I think Dunstan will be underrated by the average afl supporter for his career tbh.

Yep.

Perfect meat & potatoes footballer.

I can see why you view Stuv that way tbh. He isn’t elite but he is very very good footballer on his day.

 

[sunny3193]

I think Dunstan will be underrated by the average afl supporter for his career tbh.

Cannot really disagree with you there, but I hope the glimpses of leadership I saw in the last few rounds proves us wrong.

 

[BrutThough]

I'm not judging him on 2017 alone.

More looking at his past 5 years as a whole type conversation point

That makes your assessment of him even worse.
I could understand calling him average in 2017 alone where he did struggle with injuries but over 5 years he has been an absolute star.
It doesnt matter where you are on the ladder, you dont win 3 bnfs in that time if you aren't a star.

 

[Stewart66]

I think Dunstan will be underrated by the average afl supporter for his career tbh.

Fair call .

Luke is a smart & dedicated player which is a couple things more talented players who don’t cut it aren’t.

 

[Premium]

Still think you lack a true elite mid.

Steele will never be JPK

Seb Ross however has potential to be a gun

Billings will be / is fast becoming the same feared type as Chad & Toby

Jack Steven solid citizen but never gonna be elite

Armitage... 2 levels below elite

Acres is my pick of the Saints see Fyfe. Just needs to have someone train with him and push him to top 0.01% elite fitness and strength levels

Toxic you must understand Steele is 21 only played 37 games and this year came off a injury and missed most of his preseason , he averages over 22 disposals a game and ranks 2nd in tackles per game in the AFL.

If you compare him to Kennedy at the same stage of his career he had 19 disposals a game and averaged 4 tackles compared to 22 disposals and 8 tackles which Steele had.
Steele has huge upside and the way he is going could surpass Kennedy - I expect Steele to have a great year this year.

Steven , ok he had a bad year by his standards - mainly due to getting a punctured lung in round 3 , he came back in round 5 and played some good footy for the next 4 or 5 rounds then they started tagging him where his form dropped off, the same thing happened to Rockcliff when he had his punctured lung , just lost a little bit of his speed , a good preseason and the guy will be back to his best.
A elite player can change a game in a short period of time and Steven can do that , you will see Billings do the same next year as well.
We have a lot of these kids who have the games under their belt now and you should see vast improvement. Sinclair , Billings , Dunstan , Acres , Steele , I could not be more pleased with how the team is going.

 

[saintscott]

I'm not judging him on 2017 alone.

More looking at his past 5 years as a whole type conversation point

2015 20th in brownlow in a year we won not many

2016 20th in brownlow again

2017 25th despite punctured lung

He won a few best and fairests during that 5 year period. And you might say against who, but we still had roo and joey playing.

Brownlow votes aren't the be all and end all, but it shows when he is on, he is one of the most damaging players.

So how do you define elite? Someone that consistently racks up touches with no hurt factor ie rockliff? Someone more flashy like Steven? Or is it a combo of both? If so, there aren't too many in that category. Martin, danger, fyfe, ???

 

[pebblesofsand]

JPK was born JPK, was never going to be anyone else

That's why Hawthorn traded him and Ben McGlynn to Sydney for picks 39, 46, and 70.

Not saying Steele will equal JPK but his career so far bares a remarkable similarity.

JPK - 13 games in two seasons with Hawthorn - average 16 disposals a game - traded got more game time and his first season at Sydney 24 games @ 20 possessions a game.

Jack Steele - 17 games in two seasons with GWS - average 15 disposals a game - traded and his first season first season with the Saints (on a very limited pre-season) 22 games @ 22 possessions a game.

Game time build confidence - confidence brings results - so according to JPK's trajectory (and most AFL players) Jack Steele still has at least another two seasons of probable improvement before he really start to hit his peak.