Were West Coast really a 'state team' in the early 90s?

[Dazzler9]

The majority of the best players from a state representing the one and only team in that state? Outrageous!

 

[footyfan1978]

The majority of the best players from a state representing the one and only team in that state. Outrageous!

It is amusing the 2nd team from expansion states in the 90's sook and seem to expect the conditions of the ones in front of them can be duplicated when the pioneering expansion was far more experimental and conditions of new drafting and anything surrounding it cannot be the same. It was so different going from 12 club league to 14 club league overnight to what came later. Some people just do not get how much a big move this was into the unknown from league point of view, existing club point of view and one brand new team in state point of view. This was way bigger than even recently GWS and Gold Coast added.

1986 drafting and salary were in the earliest of stages of introduction and know how. Add two expansions teams in one off season was really out there. All those conditions brought unique opportunity. Mistakes were made that not going to be done years later once a more experienced league with drafting and equalisation measures starting to take shape.

 

[Matchu]

You bumped the thread. You wanted some more bites, obviously. I'm not looking to 'do this again' but if you insist on peddling misinformation I will keep peddling the first post I copied in this very thread.

Where's the misinformation? I was giving context to extremely misleading statements like "In 1990, West Coast got 2 pre-draft picks, again, Sydney got 6 and Brisbane 5."

 

[footyfan1978]

They were pretty good and keeping their best players out West (and hiding a few too from recruiters). Hit the ground running unlike Brisbane who were given just discards from other teams.

Just randomly come across practice match in WA 1986.

Transcript from Trove

PERTH: Victorian Football League
premier Esscndon and 1986 big im
provers Carlton both came up with
the goods in interstate practice
matches yesterday.
Esscndon, fielding a strong and
proven side, won the "battle of the
premiers", beating West Australian
champions East Fremantle
21.12(138) to 13.15(93) at East
Fremantle Oval.
Carlton, which has staged a
massive Australian-wide recruiting
campaign this year, thrashed Claremont 37.16 (238) to 9.7 (61) at Claremont Oval.

So Claremont lose at home in a practice match by 177 points and
Weeks later.... win in first round over South Fremantle by 147 points.... WTF?

1986 WAFL
Round 1

Claremont 7.6 16.15 22.17 33.18 216 Mon 31-Mar-1986 12:00 pm Claremont Oval 7,855
South Fremantle 2.0 4.2 7.5 10.9 69 Claremont won by 147 points

Perth 6.3 10.8 11.10 13.15 93 Sat 29-Mar-1986 12:00 pm Lathlain Park 8,121
West Perth 1.2 6.7 9.12 13.15 93 Perth drew with West Perth

East Fremantle 5.3 6.5 10.8 12.11 83 Sat 29-Mar-1986 12:00 pm East Fremantle Oval 10,118
Subiaco 5.1 9.5 12.6 18.9 117 Subiaco won by 34 points

East Perth 3.4 13.8 17.9 22.12 144 Mon 31-Mar-1986 12:00 pm Perth Oval 10,405
Swan Districts 1.5 4.10 14.14 21.20 146 Swan Districts won by 2 points

Claremont 7.6 16.15 22.17 33.18 216 Mon 31-Mar-1986 12:00 pm Claremont Oval 7,855
South Fremantle 2.0 4.2 7.5 10.9 69 Claremont won by 147 points

 

[Snake_Baker]

They picked the eyes out of the greatest under 18 side that ever came out of W.A., so pretty much yes.

 

[kranky al]

They picked the eyes out of the greatest under 18 side that ever came out of W.A., so pretty much yes.

so if the question was was west coast really the best of the western australian state team of year xxxx

you would answer yes


however the question was - were west coast a state team - if you had access to every single wa product - would it look different to the west coast team - of course it would - there were a heap of players playing for various teams that would have been picked over eagles players

which means it wasnt a state team

 

[Snake_Baker]

so if the question was was west coast really the best of the western australian state team of year xxxx

you would answer yes


however the question was - were west coast a state team - if you had access to every single wa product - would it look different to the west coast team - of course it would - there were a heap of players playing for various teams that would have been picked over eagles players

which means it wasnt a state team

Feel free to make your own extrapolations however you like.

 

[JackOutback]

They picked the eyes out of the greatest under 18 side that ever came out of W.A., so pretty much yes.

And as Gold Coast has shown, having unproven young talent guarantees you success

 

[footyfan1978]

Feel free to make your own extrapolations however you like.

Maurice Rioli, Gary Buckenara, Mark Bairstow, Nicky Winmar, Ken Hunter, Alan Johnson, Leon Baker, Jim Krakoeur, Phil Krakoeur, Brad Hardie, Earl Spalding, Bill Duckworth, Simon Beasley, Richard Dennis, Ken Judge, Michael Richardson, Michael Mitchell, Warren Dean, Murray Rance, Jon Dorotich, Rod Lester-Smith, Michael Christian, Peter Sartori, Darren Bewick, Phil Egan, Craig Holden, John Ironmonger and Paul Harding just to name a few....

 

[Kwality]

so if the question was was west coast really the best of the western australian state team of year xxxx

you would answer yes


however the question was - were west coast a state team - if you had access to every single wa product - would it look different to the west coast team - of course it would - there were a heap of players playing for various teams that would have been picked over eagles players

which means it wasnt a state team

So who are the contenders you rejected to frame your 'yes' answer?
Say the 1977 team that put Origin on the map?
Any team including Stephen Michael, the best player of the era?

 

[kranky al]

So who are the contenders you rejected to frame your 'yes' answer?
Say the 1977 team that put Origin on the map?
Any team including Stephen Michael, the best player of the era?

No you misunderstand

Lol sif there would be an all time wa team without stephen michael


Was talking about that one year

 

[kranky al]

Feel free to make your own extrapolations however you like.

Maurice Rioli, Gary Buckenara, Mark Bairstow, Nicky Winmar, Ken Hunter, Alan Johnson, Leon Baker, Jim Krakoeur, Phil Krakoeur, Brad Hardie, Earl Spalding, Bill Duckworth, Simon Beasley, Richard Dennis, Ken Judge, Michael Richardson, Michael Mitchell, Warren Dean, Murray Rance, Jon Dorotich, Rod Lester-Smith, Michael Christian, Peter Sartori, Darren Bewick, Phil Egan, Craig Holden, John Ironmonger and Paul Harding just to name a few....

He beat me to it and probably a lot more comprehensively than i would have.

Hats off sir theres names there id forgotten

 

[Macpotata]

North were the real stand out side for season 93 and could have stolen the flag that year... just ran out of puff towards the end, the new found success was a new feeling for the club after several years of playing ordinary (first finals appearance since '87), it was perhaps just too much too soon

West Coast were on a bit of a flag hangover, dropping a few games at home, but lifted for the first final at Waverley

P.Matera's banana goal - All Class.

Roos were missing Longmire for that game and Carey went down injured pulling his hami I think. 93 was a close season, only 2.5 games separated 1st from 9th, half game separating 1st to 4th and 1.5 games 1 to 7. 3rd place to 7th place just one game difference also.

Yep Eagles lost games at home they wouldn't normally lose. Matera and Sumich missed a match vs the Roys a week after you come back against us by 38 in the GF rematch. Fitzroy won by 3 goals. Melbourne and the famous Allen Jackovich kiss of his brother when he kicked the sealer came back from 3 goals down at the last change to pip you. Just another WCE capitulation as you did vs the dons and cats in the return games. Narrow loss at home to North by a goal, it just wasn't WCE. Malthouse was spewing because he knew if your boys had your minds on the job in 93 you could have and should have won the flag. It's why you got 94 though. The fire within.

We finished the season on a 5 game winning run smashing North by 100, beating Collingwood, Hawthorn, Essendon and WCE. Every team bar the Pies played finals there and some big wins. Collingwood finished 8th behind us on percentage. If we made the 6 I feel we could have got the job done, and many had that same mindset. Just like the year before I think if the Hawks got past you guys in week 1, they go on to win the flag again. b2b.


When it's all said and done though WCE were far inferior on the day to the dons in that 93 final and finished where they deserved. No question were hard done by with that MCG rule, but you copped floggings nonetheless and were going to play there eventually. Better later than earlier, and who's to say WCE couldn't rise to the occasion when it mattered. Say they play at home though in 96 and 99 for example, I don't think they would have beaten Sydney at the SCG and the dons at the G in 99. Finals are different and you never know, but you were belted by Sydney in the last home and away game in 96 for top spot at the SCG, and beaten comprehensively in 99 vs the dons on a friday night.

In 95, had you played the dons at home, Richmond next up, who belted you at princess park that year and obviously beat the dons in that semi erasing a 33 point deficit, all points saying WCE were not up to the task.

91 Hawks just belted you home and away in the finals. At least in the Granny.

WCE may have deserved one more flag in the 90's and it may have been there for the taking. But it's just if's and buts and were not mentally or professionally up to it when it mattered.

Carlton, Essendon, Geelong, North and WCE all rued opportunities where they felt they should have won a flag or two more.

 

[Macpotata]

Back to the question on point, who cares. They were the best in the first half of the decade of the 90's.

Phen.Om.En.Al.

 

[Macpotata]

Sumich and Heady kicking Ass. Turley, Mainwaring, Matera, Pyke, Kemp destroying it in midfield. Tony Evans snagging majors in September and Wilson kicking goals over his head after falling over. Mckenna, Jackovich, Worsfold, Brennan, a young Ashley McIntosh who could also go forward. Chris Lewis, Waterman, fmd. WCE were simPly, ALLLLLLLL CLLLAAAASSSSSSS.

 

[stax on the mull]

Maurice Rioli, Gary Buckenara, Mark Bairstow, Nicky Winmar, Ken Hunter, Alan Johnson, Leon Baker, Jim Krakoeur, Phil Krakoeur, Brad Hardie, Earl Spalding, Bill Duckworth, Simon Beasley, Richard Dennis, Ken Judge, Michael Richardson, Michael Mitchell, Warren Dean, Murray Rance, Jon Dorotich, Rod Lester-Smith, Michael Christian, Peter Sartori, Darren Bewick, Phil Egan, Craig Holden, John Ironmonger and Paul Harding just to name a few....

If they could have picked these players (and that would have depended on how many actually wanted to go back home to play for a franchise rather than a club with traditions), the majority of them would have been finished by the end of the 80's. Phil Egan? Darren Bewick played a season of WAFL in 1987.

 

[JackOutback]

If they could have picked these players (and that would have depended on how many actually wanted to go back home to play for a franchise rather than a club with traditions), the majority of them would have been finished by the end of the 80's. Phil Egan? Darren Bewick played a season of WAFL in 1987.

Franchise, lol. I suppose the Dockers are a 'real' club?

 

[stax on the mull]

Franchise, lol. I suppose the Dockers are a 'real' club?

It was franchise that went bankrupt in 3 years and had to be bailed out with taxpayers money, and then when West Coast cried poor (as previously discussed) they got a 2nd lot of extremely generous concessions.

 

[Back One Out]

To answer the OP's question, "Was West Coast really a 'state team' in the early 90s?" you only need to look at the WA State of Origin team that annihilated Victoria by 76 points on a rainy night in 1991.

Here's the 22 WA players from that evening:

7 Vic-based players: Mark Bairstow, Nicky Winmar, Darren Bewick, Earl Spalding, Ben Allan, Craig Starcevich, Allen Jakovich
15 West Coast players: Brett Heady, Chris Mainwaring, Peter Sumich, Dwayne Lamb, Craig Turley, Paul Harding, Don Pyke, Scott Watters, Karl Langdon, Ashley McIntosh, Guy McKenna, Peter Matera, Dean Kemp, Chris Waterman, Glen Jakovich

Here's another 6 West Coast guns who were uavailable to play:
John Worsfold (c), Michael Brennan (vc), Chris Lewis, Tony Evans, Peter Wilson, David Hart
All six were among West Coast's best players, who played state footy for WA before or after 1991, and/or were selected in All Australian teams and would've walked into the WA team in '91.


West Coast fans in this thread are either obfuscating or can't read. Why are they referring state players from 1986/87 ? Nobody said the Eagles had a "state team" in 1987. The "WA state team" whinging from Victorians only came about when West Coast DOMINATED the competition in 1991, winning their first 12 games by huge margins, sitting on top of the ladder undefeated with a percentage of 195.1

The butt.hurt on talkback radio was IMMENSE. It was right around then when the WA state team defeated Victoria 19.13 (127) to 7.9 (51) and everyone here in Victoria just sighed, shook their heads and said "May as well hand them the cup. They're unbeatable."

 

[Goggin Our Best]

If they could have picked these players (and that would have depended on how many actually wanted to go back home to play for a franchise rather than a club with traditions), the majority of them would have been finished by the end of the 80's. Phil Egan? Darren Bewick played a season of WAFL in 1987.

Soon as i saw that list - i thought exactly the same thing

 

[raskolnikov]

The Queensland teams have been dudded in comparison to the other expansion teams. The AFL wants a Queensland presence but doesn't want them to do well. The Lions did well in the early 00s but only because of the Fitzroy factor.

 

[Damon_3388]

To answer the OP's question, "Was West Coast really a 'state team' in the early 90s?" you only need to look at the WA State of Origin team that annihilated Victoria by 76 points on a rainy night in 1991.

Here's the 22 WA players from that evening:

7 Vic-based players: Mark Bairstow, Nicky Winmar, Darren Bewick, Earl Spalding, Ben Allan, Craig Starcevich, Allen Jakovich
15 West Coast players: Brett Heady, Chris Mainwaring, Peter Sumich, Dwayne Lamb, Craig Turley, Paul Harding, Don Pyke, Scott Watters, Karl Langdon, Ashley McIntosh, Guy McKenna, Peter Matera, Dean Kemp, Chris Waterman, Glen Jakovich

Here's another 6 West Coast guns who were uavailable to play:
John Worsfold (c), Michael Brennan (vc), Chris Lewis, Tony Evans, Peter Wilson, David Hart
All six were among West Coast's best players, who played state footy for WA before or after 1991, and/or were selected in All Australian teams and would've walked into the WA team in '91.


West Coast fans in this thread are either obfuscating or can't read. Why are they referring state players from 1986/87 ? Nobody said the Eagles had a "state team" in 1987. The "WA state team" whinging from Victorians only came about when West Coast DOMINATED the competition in 1991, winning their first 12 games by huge margins, sitting on top of the ladder undefeated with a percentage of 195.1

The butt.hurt on talkback radio was IMMENSE. It was right around then when the WA state team defeated Victoria 19.13 (127) to 7.9 (51) and everyone here in Victoria just sighed, shook their heads and said "May as well hand them the cup. They're unbeatable."

How many of those West Coast players were teenagers in the late '80s?

18-year-olds in 1986 - Langdon, Pyke, Sumich, Waterman, and Worsfold (Ben Allan and Allen Jakovich here as well)
18-year-olds in 1987 - Evans, Kemp, Lewis, McKenna, Matera, and Watters
18 year-olds in 1988 - Heady
18-year-olds in 1990 - McIntosh
18-year-olds in 1991 - Glen Jakovich

Really just looks like a golden era of talent, along with good recognition and development of that talent at an early age by the Eagles. If anything, they peaked kind of early as individuals and as a group, too, which made it seem like a great team in its prime just fell into their lap, which isn't really the case.

Adelaide recruited similarly in their early years, identifying young SA talent that eventually made up the bulk of their premiership-winning sides in 1997 and 1998. This was largely a product of the draft and and scouting and player development being very different then. Yes, these non-Victorian clubs might have had concessions which allowed them first access to some of these talented youngsters, but if scouting and drafting was as sophisticated as it is now, chances are a lot of Victorian clubs would have drafted a number of these guys too, instead of picking some of the coodabeens and never-weres that went early in the first decade of the VFL/AFL Draft.

 

[Damon_3388]

The Lions did well in the early 00s but only because of the Fitzroy factor.

Fair exaggeration.

Two former Lions that came across in the merger played more than 50 games for Brisbane - Chris Johnson and Jarrod Molloy. Johnson became one of the great small defenders of all time, after being a skinny, inconsistent half forward earlier in his career, and Molloy, while a handy player, was really only significant in terms of premiership success because he was eventually traded for Mal Michael.

In terms of other former Lions, Alistair Lynch came to Brisbane before the merger, and battled Chronic Fatigue Syndrome for years, arguably being a bit of a flop (in terms of contract size and length) in his first 5-6 years up north, and Martin Pyke spent time with North Melbourne after Fitzroy, before coming to Brisbane, on his last chance at his fourth AFL club.

Brisbane got dudded with their initial entry concessions, causing a hard reset to be needed when Robert Walls came in during the 1990 off-season. They recruited, drafted and developed well, with veterans like Michael McLean, Craig Lambert, Gilbert McAdam, Andrew Bews, Adrian Fletcher and Andrew Gowers coming in and playing important roles during the Walls era (1991-1996), handy younger guys like Richard Champion, Matthew Clarke and Matthew Kennedy playing their part, and other pre-merger Bears like Alistair Lynch, Shaun Hart, Marcus Ashcroft, Darryl White, Craig McRae, Michael Voss, Justin Leppitsch, Chris Scott, Clark Keating, Nigel Lappin, Jason Akermanis and Daniel Bradshaw eventually all going on to be premiership players.

 

[Bestbird]

How many of those West Coast players were teenagers in the late '80s?

18-year-olds in 1986 - Langdon, Pyke, Sumich, Waterman, and Worsfold (Ben Allan and Allen Jakovich here as well)
18-year-olds in 1987 - Evans, Kemp, Lewis, McKenna, Matera, and Watters
18 year-olds in 1988 - Heady
18-year-olds in 1990 - McIntosh
18-year-olds in 1991 - Glen Jakovich

Really just looks like a golden era of talent, along with good recognition and development of that talent at an early age by the Eagles. If anything, they peaked kind of early as individuals and as a group, too, which made it seem like a great team in its prime just fell into their lap, which isn't really the case.

Adelaide recruited similarly in their early years, identifying young SA talent that eventually made up the bulk of their premiership-winning sides in 1997 and 1998. This was largely a product of the draft and and scouting and player development being very different then. Yes, these non-Victorian clubs might have had concessions which allowed them first access to some of these talented youngsters, but if scouting and drafting was as sophisticated as it is now, chances are a lot of Victorian clubs would have drafted a number of these guys too, instead of picking some of the coodabeens and never-were that went early in the first decade of the VFL/AFL Draft.

Picking the right coach was pretty important as well. Malt house was an astute selection at the time

 

[footyfan1978]

If they could have picked these players (and that would have depended on how many actually wanted to go back home to play for a franchise rather than a club with traditions), the majority of them would have been finished by the end of the 80's. Phil Egan? Darren Bewick played a season of WAFL in 1987.

Yes, that was my next thought to see the ages of all these players at the time and see what a more gradual youngsters in WA replaced the ones getting too old as 1980's went out and 1990's started. Bewick I think had signed with Essendon but played one more development year in WA before coming over. Egan would still have been with Tigers like Peter Wilson. Wilson come over to Eagles soon after. I think my Blues had Wayne Blackwell still and Brad Shine but Shine not really a senior grade player back then Basically only Ross Glendinning as veteran from North, Phil Narkle from St.Kila and one or two others Robert Wiley, Malaxos and Annear that may have returned to WAFL were experienced VFL players when Eagles started out. 95% of the guys with WA origins in VFL remained with the VFL team in 1987.