Play Nice First transgender player in the AFLW

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sprockets

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He can put forward that opinion, I can disagree with that opinion. Both have been occurring in this thread.

I agree with some aspects of his views regarding the participation of Mouncey in the AFLW / VFLW, I disagree with his approach to how he refers to Mouncey.

I’m not sure an Alpaca is self-aware enough to feel any kind of distress over whether or not it is a sheep, but it also sounds like the sheep aren’t making an effort to point out how different or wrong the alpaca is either.

I’m glad we’ve clarified that sheep are more tolerant than people.
But it's still an alpaca.

Alpaca.jpg


No, and no.

But there is a time and place for everything. Nobody is telling you what to think or to change your mind. What I, and others, are telling you is that your particular mindset and the way you express it is not appropriate in this thread. Feel free to espouse your views elsewhere. Would you go into a known LGBTQwhatever-friendly bar, order a pint, and announce to all and sundry including the resident transgenders that "blokes have dicks and if you have a dick you're forever a bloke and that's that!"? Perfectly valid viewpoint, you're entitled to that opinion, but you'd be being confrontational for the hell of it.
So it's ok to call someone a "confrontational a-hole" but not ok to call a pre-transition female (a male) 'he'? This is where the argument is lost. BTW are you a mod here?

Edit: Removed over-the-top comment from quoted post - OTP
 
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So it's ok to call someone a "confrontational a-hole" but not ok to call a pre-transition female (a male) 'he'? This is where the argument is lost.

No, it's not, although I was careful to say "you'd be being" one, not directly calling him one. But that's semantics. I went overboard and shouldn't have, for which I unreservedly apologise. By way of explanation - not excuse - it's tiring and aggravating to be trying to deal with the same crap covered many, many times over in the last 2700 posts. Time for me to take a break from this thread.
 
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But it's still an alpaca.

And a transgender person is still a human; calling them something you're well aware is offensive to the individual is showing less tolerance than the sheep.

The topic is whether or not a transgender player should be allowed to play in the AFLW (or state level equivalent now the VFLW exists) competitions; not the merits or validity of transgender people themselves.

I'm happy to discuss why Mouncey should or not should be allowed to compete in the AFLW, or whether intersex athletes like Semenya should be allowed to compete in their chosen sport. I just don't think it adds anything to be making harmful comments towards the individual.

If you want to open something on the SRP board about whether or not being transgender is a mental illness of some sort, then that might be the more appropriate setting for such a discussion.

I'm conscious of Kirsti having been incredibly tolerant of people making comments that would be quite offensive, having answered questions in as honest and respectful way as possible, and I think we can show a bit of that respect in return and keep the discussion away from personal judgments or attacks on an individual.
 

jatz14

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But it's still an alpaca.

View attachment 511866


So it's ok to call someone a "confrontational a-hole" but not ok to call a pre-transition female (a male) 'he'? This is where the argument is lost. BTW are you a mod here?

Edit: Removed over-the-top comment from quoted post - OTP
A study came out recently that showed in areas of the brain with identifiable differences between male and female brains, transgender brains resemble the sex they identify with, not their birth sex.

So, this is the answer to your Alpaca assertion. It doesn't have the brain of a sheep, it doesn't think it's a sheep, it's just modelling the behaviour of the only herbivores it can see.

A boy raised in a society composed only of women may act/dress/behave more like a women than a boy raised in normal society, however this doesn't make him transgender.

You clearly haven't grasped the essential differences between someone who is transgender and someone who is a cross dresser. Mouncey doesn't claim to be female because she likes dresses or acting feminine, it's because in her head, she has always been she, despite looking like a he, and this is not due to a mental illness (they do check before allowing things like surgery or hormones).

Mental illness shows the manifestations of illness, it comes with signs and symptoms, disease progression and history. Recent court case where the killer was not sent to trial due to mental illness. He thinks he is the Messiah, however, the fact he shows all the signs of delusion and mental illness are a good indication he is not. This is acute, there is a period before the onset of illness he did not think he was the Messiah, and if the get his treatment right, he will stop thinking he is the Messiah.

Mouncey is not an Alpaca acting like a sheep.
She is not a cross dresser.
She has no signs of mental illness related to thinking she is female.
You cannot give her pills that make her stop thinking she is female.
If you scanned her brain the evidence is, she would have a feminine brain.
Society has decided the essence of self is what's in the head, not what's between the legs.

So, what you going to do?

Wether that's enough to let her play in a female league is another matter, and I do think the balance may be overweighted towards consideration for Hannah, with insufficient weight given to other players.


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jatz14

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Seems to me the obvious solution is to do it by birth gender.
More and more transition happens pre puberty, so they never develop post puberty as a boy, they never get male muscle mass. They do not look like men in a dress, they do not have biological sporting advantages over a women. Post surgery, its actually hard to tell them apart from natural women.
Would it be sensible to have a 5 foot 6 woman, who looks like a woman, runs like a woman and has the strength of a woman, play in a mens league? Given the recent controversies, which change room would she use?

The reality is, with a birth certificate that says woman, the appearance of a woman, the legal status of a woman, you are only going to know if she is transgender if she tells you. So how are you going to keep her out of womens comps? Are you going to have forced gender testing? Mouncey is controversial because of how late she transitioned, but if she had started at 14 or 15, she could already be playing AFLW, and you wouldn't even know there was an issue.
 

sprockets

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No, it's not, although I was careful to say "you'd be being" one, not directly calling him one. But that's semantics. I went overboard and shouldn't have, for which I unreservedly apologise. By way of explanation - not excuse - it's tiring and aggravating to be trying to deal with the same crap covered many, many times over in the last 2700 posts. Time for me to take a break from this thread.
You never said "you'd be being", you said you were "sick of confrontational arseholes". Editing your post doesn't mean you don't believe what you said. The thing is, the other side is also repeating themselves over and over, including Kirsti copy and pasting one of her posts multiple times. Why doesn't that bother you as well? It's double standards.

Also, is it ethical for you as a mod to edit your post and then edit my post to remove your over the top, direct insult to a poster? However, as you can see, everyone can say things that might be considered over the top. The difference here is that someone on the other side of the argument did it (which is debatable) and has been taken to task (playing the man?) for pages on end.

And a transgender person is still a human; calling them something you're well aware is offensive to the individual is showing less tolerance than the sheep.

The topic is whether or not a transgender player should be allowed to play in the AFLW (or state level equivalent now the VFLW exists) competitions; not the merits or validity of transgender people themselves.

I'm happy to discuss why Mouncey should or not should be allowed to compete in the AFLW, or whether intersex athletes like Semenya should be allowed to compete in their chosen sport. I just don't think it adds anything to be making harmful comments towards the individual.

If you want to open something on the SRP board about whether or not being transgender is a mental illness of some sort, then that might be the more appropriate setting for such a discussion.

I'm conscious of Kirsti having been incredibly tolerant of people making comments that would be quite offensive, having answered questions in as honest and respectful way as possible, and I think we can show a bit of that respect in return and keep the discussion away from personal judgments or attacks on an individual.

No-one is saying Mouncey isn't human!

Again we see double standards. I don't see you complaining that a mod, of all people, has just called a poster a "confrontational a-hole", especially since the poster isn't being confrontational at all. He has an opinion, which I share, and he's entitled to it!

My point in the argument is that Mouncey is still a man. Just because he/she 'identifies' as female doesn't mean he/she's any different physically to a man. Football is a very physical sport. If Mouncey is physically a man, why shouldn't men be able to compete against women? Why should an 'artificial' female be allowed to compete at all when all other types of 'artificiality' in sport is frowned upon?

A study came out recently that showed in areas of the brain with identifiable differences between male and female brains, transgender brains resemble the sex they identify with, not their birth sex.

So, this is the answer to your Alpaca assertion. It doesn't have the brain of a sheep, it doesn't think it's a sheep, it's just modelling the behaviour of the only herbivores it can see.

A boy raised in a society composed only of women may act/dress/behave more like a women than a boy raised in normal society, however this doesn't make him transgender.

You clearly haven't grasped the essential differences between someone who is transgender and someone who is a cross dresser. Mouncey doesn't claim to be female because she likes dresses or acting feminine, it's because in her head, she has always been she, despite looking like a he, and this is not due to a mental illness (they do check before allowing things like surgery or hormones).

Mental illness shows the manifestations of illness, it comes with signs and symptoms, disease progression and history. Recent court case where the killer was not sent to trial due to mental illness. He thinks he is the Messiah, however, the fact he shows all the signs of delusion and mental illness are a good indication he is not. This is acute, there is a period before the onset of illness he did not think he was the Messiah, and if the get his treatment right, he will stop thinking he is the Messiah.

Mouncey is not an Alpaca acting like a sheep.
She is not a cross dresser.
She has no signs of mental illness related to thinking she is female.
You cannot give her pills that make her stop thinking she is female.
If you scanned her brain the evidence is, she would have a feminine brain.
Society has decided the essence of self is what's in the head, not what's between the legs.

So, what you going to do?

Wether that's enough to let her play in a female league is another matter, and I do think the balance may be overweighted towards consideration for Hannah, with insufficient weight given to other players.


Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk
I know exactly what transgender means. The point is that acting like or believing you're a female doesn't make you a woman. And when did you see the scans of Mouncey's brain?
 

jatz14

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You never said "you'd be being", you said you were "sick of confrontational arseholes". Editing your post doesn't mean you don't believe what you said. The thing is, the other side is also repeating themselves over and over, including Kirsti copy and pasting one of her posts multiple times. Why doesn't that bother you as well? It's double standards.

Also, is it ethical for you as a mod to edit your post and then edit my post to remove your over the top, direct insult to a poster? However, as you can see, everyone can say things that might be considered over the top. The difference here is that someone on the other side of the argument did it (which is debatable) and has been taken to task (playing the man?) for pages on end.



No-one is saying Mouncey isn't human!

Again we see double standards. I don't see you complaining that a mod, of all people, has just called a poster a "confrontational a-hole", especially since the poster isn't being confrontational at all. He has an opinion, which I share, and he's entitled to it!

My point in the argument is that Mouncey is still a man. Just because he/she 'identifies' as female doesn't mean he/she's any different physically to a man. Football is a very physical sport. If Mouncey is physically a man, why shouldn't men be able to compete against women? Why should an 'artificial' female be allowed to compete at all when all other types of 'artificiality' in sport is frowned upon?


I know exactly what transgender means. The point is that acting like or believing you're a female doesn't make you a woman. And when did you see the scans of Mouncey's brain?
I said it was likely, on the basis of the high correlation of feminised brains in transgender women.
The entire point of my post is acting female doesn't make you transgender. You can be a man that acts female without identifying as female, and contrary to popular opinion, these men are not trying to play football in womens leagues.
The entire, Its acts like a sheep, but its still an alpaca analogy clearly indicates you dont really know what transgender is.
 
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Would it be sensible to have a 5 foot 6 woman, who looks like a woman, runs like a woman and has the strength of a woman, play in a mens league? Given the recent controversies, which change room would she use?

It isn't sensible because a woman fitting that description wouldn't get a game in a men's league. She would be physically overpowered playing a half decent U/15s side.

The reality is, with a birth certificate that says woman, the appearance of a woman, the legal status of a woman, you are only going to know if she is transgender if she tells you. So how are you going to keep her out of womens comps? Are you going to have forced gender testing? Mouncey is controversial because of how late she transitioned, but if she had started at 14 or 15, she could already be playing AFLW, and you wouldn't even know there was an issue.

Mouncey is controversial because he/she was not only born a man but played men's sport to an Olympic qualifying level. I saw the interview and she refused to answer if she had undergone gender reassignment surgery and doesn't think it's important/anyone's business. In day to day life I agree, she can do whatever she wants in that regard. When it comes to wanting to compete in women's sport at the highest level I think it's pertinent.
 
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No-one is saying Mouncey isn't human!

Again we see double standards. I don't see you complaining that a mod, of all people, has just called a poster a "confrontational a-hole", especially since the poster isn't being confrontational at all. He has an opinion, which I share, and he's entitled to it!

My point in the argument is that Mouncey is still a man. Just because he/she 'identifies' as female doesn't mean he/she's any different physically to a man. Football is a very physical sport. If Mouncey is physically a man, why shouldn't men be able to compete against women? Why should an 'artificial' female be allowed to compete at all when all other types of 'artificiality' in sport is frowned upon?

Well you did compare Mouncey to an alpaca...

I don't agree with the mod calling someone a confrontational a-hole; I didn't actually read that post pre-edit and I'm not the police of everyone who says something I disagree with anyway.

I actually agree on the last point; Mouncey should be free to identify however she likes, but that doesn't automatically give someone the right to participate in the women's AFL competition.
 

sprockets

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I said it was likely, on the basis of the high correlation of feminised brains in transgender women.
The entire point of my post is acting female doesn't make you transgender. You can be a man that acts female without identifying as female, and contrary to popular opinion, these men are not trying to play football in womens leagues.
The entire, Its acts like a sheep, but its still an alpaca analogy clearly indicates you dont really know what transgender is.
But I know what transgender is. Here you go https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender

"Transgender people are those who have a gender identity or gender expression that differs from their assigned sex.[1][2][3] Transgender people are sometimes called transsexual if they desire medical assistance to transition from one sex to another. Transgender is also an umbrella term: in addition to including people whose gender identity is the opposite of their assigned sex (trans men and trans women), it may include people who are not exclusively masculine or feminine (people who are genderqueer or non-binary, including bigender, pangender, genderfluid, or agender).[2][4][5] Other definitions of transgender also include people who belong to a third gender, or else conceptualize transgender people as a third gender.[6][7] Infrequently, the term transgender is defined very broadly to include cross-dressers,[8] regardless of their gender identity."

In other words, your argument is based around your own definition of transgender, regardless of the general definition/s. I want more evidence than "likely" that someone's a woman before them being allowed to compete in womens' sport.
 
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You never said "you'd be being", you said you were "sick of confrontational arseholes". Editing your post doesn't mean you don't believe what you said. The thing is, the other side is also repeating themselves over and over, including Kirsti copy and pasting one of her posts multiple times. Why doesn't that bother you as well? It's double standards.

Also, is it ethical for you as a mod to edit your post and then edit my post to remove your over the top, direct insult to a poster? However, as you can see, everyone can say things that might be considered over the top. The difference here is that someone on the other side of the argument did it (which is debatable) and has been taken to task (playing the man?) for pages on end.

Issues with moderation can be addressed to support@bigfooty.com or referred to a supermoderator (@Mike__ , Ant_) or admin (Chief, Messenger) . Further posts on this matter in this thread will be deleted.

Its not unusual for a mod to remove deleted content from posts responding to the deleted content.
 
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kirsti

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The IOC developed its first transgender guidelines prior to the Athens Olympics in 2004.

The following guidelines were developed;
Individuals undergoing sex reassignment from male to female after puberty (and the converse) be eligible for participation in female or male competitions, respectively, under the following conditions:

1-Surgical anatomical changes have been completed, including external genitalia changes and gonadectomy

2/Legal recognition of their assigned sex has been conferred by the appropriate official authorities

3/Hormonal therapy appropriate for the assigned sex has been administered in a verifiable manner and for a sufficient length of time to minimise gender-related advantages in sport competitions.

3/eligibility should begin no sooner than two years after gonadectomy.

4/ It is understood that a confidential case-by-case evaluation will occur. In the event that the gender of a competing athlete is questioned, the medical delegate (or equivalent) of the relevant sporting body shall have the authority to take all appropriate measures for the determination of the gender of a competitor.

Under these guidelines trans athletes were eligible to compete at all Olympic and Commonwealth Games from 2004 to 2015. During this time not one world title, or Olympic or Commonwealth Medal was won by a transgender athlete.

In 2015, the IOC modified these guidelines in recognition that legal recognition of gender could be difficult in countries where gender transition is not legal, and also that requiring surgery in otherwise healthy individuals "may be inconsistent with developing legislation and notions of human rights".

The new guidelines require that trans woman athletes declare their gender and not change that assertion for four years, and demonstrate a testosterone level of less than 10 nanomoles/liter for at least one year prior to competition and throughout the period of eligibility.

If sports bodies have concerns the advantage in women’s competition hasn’t been minimised a case by case determination is allowed and the 12 month period can be extended until the sports body is satisfied the advantage in women’s competition has been minimised.

Athletes who transitioned from female to male were allowed to compete without restriction.

These guidelines were in effect for the 2016 Rio Olympics, although no openly transgender athletes competed.
 
Apr 23, 2016
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The IOC developed its first transgender guidelines prior to the Athens Olympics in 2004.

The following guidelines were developed;
Individuals undergoing sex reassignment from male to female after puberty (and the converse) be eligible for participation in female or male competitions, respectively, under the following conditions:

1-Surgical anatomical changes have been completed, including external genitalia changes and gonadectomy

2/Legal recognition of their assigned sex has been conferred by the appropriate official authorities

3/Hormonal therapy appropriate for the assigned sex has been administered in a verifiable manner and for a sufficient length of time to minimise gender-related advantages in sport competitions.

3/eligibility should begin no sooner than two years after gonadectomy.

4/ It is understood that a confidential case-by-case evaluation will occur. In the event that the gender of a competing athlete is questioned, the medical delegate (or equivalent) of the relevant sporting body shall have the authority to take all appropriate measures for the determination of the gender of a competitor.

Under these guidelines trans athletes were eligible to compete at all Olympic and Commonwealth Games from 2004 to 2015. During this time not one world title, or Olympic or Commonwealth Medal was won by a transgender athlete.

In 2015, the IOC modified these guidelines in recognition that legal recognition of gender could be difficult in countries where gender transition is not legal, and also that requiring surgery in otherwise healthy individuals "may be inconsistent with developing legislation and notions of human rights".

The new guidelines require that trans woman athletes declare their gender and not change that assertion for four years, and demonstrate a testosterone level of less than 10 nanomoles/liter for at least one year prior to competition and throughout the period of eligibility.

If sports bodies have concerns the advantage in women’s competition hasn’t been minimised a case by case determination is allowed and the 12 month period can be extended until the sports body is satisfied the advantage in women’s competition has been minimised.

Athletes who transitioned from female to male were allowed to compete without restriction.

These guidelines were in effect for the 2016 Rio Olympics, although no openly transgender athletes competed.

Could you please add the link to where you get these things from? I see you post snippets of a lot of articles but rarely the link to them.
 
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The IOC developed its first transgender guidelines prior to the Athens Olympics in 2004.

The following guidelines were developed;
Individuals undergoing sex reassignment from male to female after puberty (and the converse) be eligible for participation in female or male competitions, respectively, under the following conditions:

1-Surgical anatomical changes have been completed, including external genitalia changes and gonadectomy

2/Legal recognition of their assigned sex has been conferred by the appropriate official authorities

3/Hormonal therapy appropriate for the assigned sex has been administered in a verifiable manner and for a sufficient length of time to minimise gender-related advantages in sport competitions.

3/eligibility should begin no sooner than two years after gonadectomy.

4/ It is understood that a confidential case-by-case evaluation will occur. In the event that the gender of a competing athlete is questioned, the medical delegate (or equivalent) of the relevant sporting body shall have the authority to take all appropriate measures for the determination of the gender of a competitor.

Under these guidelines trans athletes were eligible to compete at all Olympic and Commonwealth Games from 2004 to 2015. During this time not one world title, or Olympic or Commonwealth Medal was won by a transgender athlete.

In 2015, the IOC modified these guidelines in recognition that legal recognition of gender could be difficult in countries where gender transition is not legal, and also that requiring surgery in otherwise healthy individuals "may be inconsistent with developing legislation and notions of human rights".

The new guidelines require that trans woman athletes declare their gender and not change that assertion for four years, and demonstrate a testosterone level of less than 10 nanomoles/liter for at least one year prior to competition and throughout the period of eligibility.

If sports bodies have concerns the advantage in women’s competition hasn’t been minimised a case by case determination is allowed and the 12 month period can be extended until the sports body is satisfied the advantage in women’s competition has been minimised.

Athletes who transitioned from female to male were allowed to compete without restriction.

These guidelines were in effect for the 2016 Rio Olympics, although no openly transgender athletes competed.

I don't know why you keep posting this stuff as it has little in the way of relevance.

How many IOC contestants crash in to each other as a predominant aspect of their sport?
 

kirsti

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I don't know why you keep posting this stuff as it has little in the way of relevance.

How many IOC contestants crash in to each other as a predominant aspect of their sport?
I am the biggest critic of the IOC policy they both were developed without science.
 
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