Unpopular Basketball Opinions

May 9, 2013
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Offensively I view Curry as the NBA's most impactful due to the gravity and sheer range he has on his shot where he can pull up from anywhere at any time. It opens up the court like no one else.

145ppg over a season isn't realistic.

Curry's Warriors with KD and Klay averaged 113.5. Doesn't matter who you add to that team. They're not making the jump to 145ppg. That's why I said 120 if you add those lethal offensive pieces.

The key to my above lineup is LeBron at point guard. He has been a liability for a new seasons now defensively but put him at point, take the offensive load off of him as would happen with all those guys having scoring capabilities and Steph or any point guard would have a bad day with LeBron arguably able to defend the position better than anyone in the NBA. Guys aren't driving past him, seeing or shooting over him easily. And anyone who gets switched onto Steph with the length of that whole squad also would cause him or any other point guard in the NBA serious trouble. And on the other end. Steph would have to be switched off of LeBron entirely, with no capacity to defend him. It would be a bad situation made worse if both Curry and Harden were on that same team with matchups galore offensively that can be exploited.

If I added an 8th player to my above squad, I'd next go with Klay over Curry or Harden, continuing to get guys who can play both ways.

If you have 5 lethal scorers. You have to remember. There is only one basketball. So the returns are somewhat diminished, whereas on defence, any weak links and you're getting killed the other way.

I think you took my post too seriously about 145. My point was that Steph adds so much offensively that the fact he is an average defender (he's not a bad defender) doesn't matter. To me adding Butler (who is only a decent offensive player) because he's pretty good at defense is silly.

Also, how much Warriors basketball do you watch? Steph very rarely gets exploited. It got to a point that the Rockets stopped doing it in their series because it flat out wasn't working.

And you are talking about putting a bunch of talent on the court at one time. That's not what your initial post said. You just rated Butler better than Curry. So, the question I have is... If you were Warrior management you would make the trade of Curry for Butler? And if you were Rockets management you would make the trade of Harden for Butler?
 
Sep 22, 2010
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I think you took my post too seriously about 145. My point was that Steph adds so much offensively that the fact he is an average defender (he's not a bad defender) doesn't matter. To me adding Butler (who is only a decent offensive player) because he's pretty good at defense is silly.

Also, how much Warriors basketball do you watch? Steph very rarely gets exploited. It got to a point that the Rockets stopped doing it in their series because it flat out wasn't working.

And you are talking about putting a bunch of talent on the court at one time. That's not what your initial post said. You just rated Butler better than Curry. So, the question I have is... If you were Warrior management you would make the trade of Curry for Butler? And if you were Rockets management you would make the trade of Harden for Butler?

That's massively underestimating Butler's capabilities.

He is an elite defensive player, one of the better 2-3 perimeter defenders in the NBA and he's still one of the best and most efficient scorers.

Steph has quick hands and can get some steals, but it sounds like you're forgetting Steph's incompetence defensively in game 2 in that series. Further to that, if you're making Steph work on defense. He has nothing to give on offense. With Houston relentlessly attacking Steph in those first two games in that Houston series, he did nothing offensively scoring 18 and 16 points in those games on 20% and 15% 3pt shooting.

I do rate Butler ahead of Curry and I would in a lineup all things being equal pick Butler ahead of Curry.

In the Rockets situation given it's a D'Antoni team. They're better off with Harden who is made much better due to their system. Butler isn't a pace and space offence guy to play to his capabilities for D'Antoni.

Any of the other 29 NBA teams. Give me Butler over Harden. Harden isn't having that influence on any other team, in any other system. The Rockets are a team optimised for his play.
 
Sep 22, 2010
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You preach about defense and then you put KD @ SG and LeBron @ point?

Weird.

LeBron is a masterful defender at the point.

No one is shooting over KD's length. He's become a terrific defender in his own right.

The defence would be less about playing a position as much as having a defence that is always switching with no one exploitable whether they have to defend down low or on the perimeter.
 
May 9, 2013
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That's massively underestimating Butler's capabilities.

He is an elite defensive player, one of the better 2-3 perimeter defenders in the NBA and he's still one of the best and most efficient scorers.

Steph has quick hands and can get some steals, but it sounds like you're forgetting Steph's incompetence defensively in game 2 in that series. Further to that, if you're making Steph work on defense. He has nothing to give on offense. With Houston relentlessly attacking Steph in those first two games in that Houston series, he did nothing offensively scoring 18 and 16 points in those games on 20% and 15% 3pt shooting.

I do rate Butler ahead of Curry and I would in a lineup all things being equal pick Butler ahead of Curry.

In the Rockets situation given it's a D'Antoni team. They're better off with Harden who is made much better due to their system. Butler isn't a pace and space offence guy to play to his capabilities for D'Antoni.

Any of the other 29 NBA teams. Give me Butler over Harden. Harden isn't having that influence on any other team, in any other system. The Rockets are a team optimised for his play.

You don't watch much Warriors do you?

Firstly the main reason a team attacks Steph is because who should they attack? Green? Durant? Iggy? Thompson?

And it doesn't work anyway.

Houston literally stopped attacking Steph because it wasn't working.

Numbers show Steph does just fine when being isolated.

e.g. LeBron James is shooting 6-26 (19%) when guarded by Stephen Curry in his Finals career, including 2-5 with a turnover in OT on Thursday (stat after Game 1 of the Finals this year).

Anyway, I'm not even saying he's a good defender. He's just a solid defender. Main point is he's not a sieve and adds so much more at the other end. But if you're a GM go and pick Butler. You'd be the only one.

Also weird that you have 65+ in 5 of his 7 seasons as showing he's not injury prone? Butler misses heaps of games. Has had one season where he didn't have injury problems. He's only played more than 67 games in 2 of his 7 seasons.
 
May 9, 2013
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LeBron is a masterful defender at the point.

No one is shooting over KD's length. He's become a terrific defender in his own right.

The defence would be less about playing a position as much as having a defence that is always switching with no one exploitable whether they have to defend down low or on the perimeter.

LeBron isn't 27 any more. Good point guards are taking him apart now.

KD isn't chasing SG around. Him guarding someone like Klay would be a massacre. He's not keeping with Klay. His defensive strengths are around the basket.
 
Sep 22, 2010
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You don't watch much Warriors do you?

Firstly the main reason a team attacks Steph is because who should they attack? Green? Durant? Iggy? Thompson?

And it doesn't work anyway.

Houston literally stopped attacking Steph because it wasn't working.

Numbers show Steph does just fine when being isolated.

e.g. LeBron James is shooting 6-26 (19%) when guarded by Stephen Curry in his Finals career, including 2-5 with a turnover in OT on Thursday (stat after Game 1 of the Finals this year).

Anyway, I'm not even saying he's a good defender. He's just a solid defender. Main point is he's not a sieve and adds so much more at the other end. But if you're a GM go and pick Butler. You'd be the only one.

Also weird that you have 65+ in 5 of his 7 seasons as showing he's not injury prone? Butler misses heaps of games. Has had one season where he didn't have injury problems. He's only played more than 67 games in 2 of his 7 seasons.

There is no team I watch more than the Warriors. They're the most fun team in the NBA to watch as an unselfish team with a roster filled with guys who can pull up from anywhere, or have anyone go off on any given night.

Steph when isolated is helped by teammates who don't let players easily slip to the rim. They help him on defence.

I'll give Steph adequate on defence but he's not good on defence. He's more someone who has quick hands and plays the passing lanes. That's where he feels most comfortable on that end.

On Jimmy's durability. His first season he wasn't given minutes, as he wasn't part of Thibs' rotation. Last year was the only other season he played less than 65 games, and that was because he wasn't right to go at the start of the season. His 36.7 minutes per game is the least he has played over the past 5 years. No one has over the past five years per game has played been required to play more minutes than Jimmy.

If I'm thinking of stars without durability. I think more about Kawhi (only 3/7 seasons with 65 or more games - and no interest in playing hurt), Kyrie Irving (only 3/7 seasons with 65 or more games and two key playoff series missed), Kevin Love (5/10 seasons of less than 65 games), Anthony Davis (never playing more than 75 games and not playing even 70 games until the past two years), Chris Paul (6/13 seasons with less than 65 games played).

LeBron isn't 27 any more. Good point guards are taking him apart now.

KD isn't chasing SG around. Him guarding someone like Klay would be a massacre. He's not keeping with Klay. His defensive strengths are around the basket.

Depends on matchups. KD and Kawhi can easily switch and Kawhi can run with Klay if that's the matchup. Giannis can come out to the perimeter and switch with KD if he needs to rest more on D. Jimmy can come in and play either the 2/3. So it's pretty easy to deal with any matchup. They're more flexible positions than traditional, that's where they will spend the whole game/that's their role. It's a team defence concept and constant switching.
 
May 9, 2013
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If I'm thinking of stars without durability. I think more about Kawhi (only 3/7 seasons with 65 or more games - and no interest in playing hurt), Kyrie Irving (only 3/7 seasons with 65 or more games and two key playoff series missed), Kevin Love (5/10 seasons of less than 65 games), Anthony Davis (never playing more than 75 games and not playing even 70 games until the past two years), Chris Paul (6/13 seasons with less than 65 games played).
.

Yeah, I'm not seeing how any of those players are much different to Butler who has 5 of 7 seasons under 68 games. Even giving him his rookie season he's 4 of 6 playing less than 68 games. None of those players you mentioned have a higher percentage of seasons playing less than that amount of games. You seem to use 65 games because it makes Butler look better.

This idea that you have that he's some kind of Warriors who never misses time is weird.

You have too much man-love for Butler.

The fact you rank him higher than 10ish players that are clearly better than him shows that.

We haven't even talked about that he seems like an arsehole that no one wants to play with.
 
May 9, 2013
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Depends on matchups. KD and Kawhi can easily switch and Kawhi can run with Klay if that's the matchup. Giannis can come out to the perimeter and switch with KD if he needs to rest more on D. Jimmy can come in and play either the 2/3. So it's pretty easy to deal with any matchup. They're more flexible positions than traditional, that's where they will spend the whole game/that's their role. It's a team defence concept and constant switching.

I think we got side tracked. I have no issues with anyone picking KD over Steph. And even a fully fit KL has merits.

Butler doesn't.
 
Sep 22, 2010
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Yeah, I'm not seeing how any of those players are much different to Butler who has 5 of 7 seasons under 68 games. Even giving him his rookie season he's 4 of 6 playing less than 68 games. None of those players you mentioned have a higher percentage of seasons playing less than that amount of games. You seem to use 65 games because it makes Butler look better.

This idea that you have that he's some kind of Warriors who never misses time is weird.

You have too much man-love for Butler.

The fact you rank him higher than 10ish players that are clearly better than him shows that.

We haven't even talked about that he seems like an arsehole that no one wants to play with.

Choosing 68 as a magic number and not considering Butler playing the highest minutes per game over the past five seasons I would term as selective.

My suggestion isn't that Butler doesn't miss games. As you've rightly pointed out, other than his second season playing 82 games, that was the only season.

I have Butler edging towards the top 5. He should have placed top 5 in the MVP voting last year with only AD, Giannis and Harden having better regular seasons. From Butler's 22nd game till the end of the season only AD played better basketball from there until the end of the season.

Butler rightly expects a lot from his teammates, so when you've got KAT and Wiggins who are the worst defensive combination of any starting unit in the NBA - with KAT playing for stats and Wiggins playing for money, Butler being all about winning and hard work isn't going to stand for that. He's a culture setter who demands players work, play hard and play unselfishly.

I think we got side tracked. I have no issues with anyone picking KD over Steph. And even a fully fit KL has merits.

Butler doesn't.

There should be no argument on KD being ahead of Steph.

I have Klay also ahead of Steph and Harden. For the same reason as Butler. He has the offensive capabilities on that elite level as Butler does, but on the defensive end, he's elite, just as Butler is.

It's not the NFL. It's a two way game. You want as many players who are elite on both ends as possible. Having no one under 6'6 and having length, athleticism and strength at each position is huge. It can stop offences for long portions of games when you have a defence as per my suggested group.
 
May 9, 2013
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Choosing 68 as a magic number and not considering Butler playing the highest minutes per game over the past five seasons I would term as selective.

My suggestion isn't that Butler doesn't miss games. As you've rightly pointed out, other than his second season playing 82 games, that was the only season.

I have Butler edging towards the top 5. He should have placed top 5 in the MVP voting last year with only AD, Giannis and Harden having better regular seasons. From Butler's 22nd game till the end of the season only AD played better basketball from there until the end of the season.

Butler rightly expects a lot from his teammates, so when you've got KAT and Wiggins who are the worst defensive combination of any starting unit in the NBA - with KAT playing for stats and Wiggins playing for money, Butler being all about winning and hard work isn't going to stand for that. He's a culture setter who demands players work, play hard and play unselfishly.



There should be no argument on KD being ahead of Steph.

I have Klay also ahead of Steph and Harden. For the same reason as Butler. He has the offensive capabilities on that elite level as Butler does, but on the defensive end, he's elite, just as Butler is.

It's not the NFL. It's a two way game. You want as many players who are elite on both ends as possible. Having no one under 6'6 and having length, athleticism and strength at each position is huge. It can stop offences for long portions of games when you have a defence as per my suggested group.

There's just so much head scratching stuff in here I think I will stop arguing.

You obviously love your man, but so much of what you write is based on that and not realism. There's a reason 100 people out of 100 people would pick Steph on a team before Butler. They aren't all wrong.

I do think you'll make a good husband, because when your wife asks you if she looks good in a bikini and you say she looks better than any supermodel, you'll actually mean it.
 
Sep 22, 2010
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There's just so much head scratching stuff in here I think I will stop arguing.

You obviously love your man, but so much of what you write is based on that and not realism. There's a reason 100 people out of 100 people would pick Steph on a team before Butler. They aren't all wrong.

I do think you'll make a good husband, because when your wife asks you if she looks good in a bikini and you say she looks better than any supermodel, you'll actually mean it.

I'm more than happy to be part of that 0.1%, there is a reason it's an unpopular opinion.

Understanding perfectly well how much more highly Curry is regarded than Butler, and understanding how undervalued is Butler, with teams understanding they can get him as a free agent next year on a smaller contract than if they were to sign him now. It's a trade I'd make if Curry was on another team, other than the Warriors where there wasn't Durant and Thompson or a 3/2 of that quality.

If hypothetically Curry played for a team other than the Warriors, I'd be looking to move Curry for Butler, Teague, Dieng and x4 future unprotected first round picks from the T-Wolves. Gets the T-Wolves out from the Dieng contract they want to get out from under, gets them their star in return for Butler and you have a hell of a lot of potentially great future assets in first round picks that could be anything, with the T-Wolves not necessarily a playoff team every year with Curry/KAT/Wiggins with an incredible amount of money invested in just three players, or that group could well break up prematurely.

In the Warriors situation, moving Curry isn't practical as their group has the chemistry and needs the point guard more than a 2/3 in Butler, and being that championship favourite you can't do it. But in any other team situation, that's the kind of opportunistic deal I'd make understanding the T-Wolves have no leverage and those picks could well end up as something like a Celtics gaining Brooklyn Nets future first round pick kind of scenario where they've been clean robbed if things go your way.

And Thibs being all about the present, and the front office wanting to get rid of Dieng, it's a deal he'd probably agree to.
 
May 9, 2013
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I'm more than happy to be part of that 0.1%, there is a reason it's an unpopular opinion.

Understanding perfectly well how much more highly Curry is regarded than Butler, and understanding how undervalued is Butler, with teams understanding they can get him as a free agent next year on a smaller contract than if they were to sign him now. It's a trade I'd make if Curry was on another team, other than the Warriors where there wasn't Durant and Thompson or a 3/2 of that quality.

If hypothetically Curry played for a team other than the Warriors, I'd be looking to move Curry for Butler, Teague, Dieng and x4 future unprotected first round picks from the T-Wolves. Gets the T-Wolves out from the Dieng contract they want to get out from under, gets them their star in return for Butler and you have a hell of a lot of potentially great future assets in first round picks that could be anything, with the T-Wolves not necessarily a playoff team every year with Curry/KAT/Wiggins with an incredible amount of money invested in just three players, or that group could well break up prematurely.

In the Warriors situation, moving Curry isn't practical as their group has the chemistry and needs the point guard more than a 2/3 in Butler, and being that championship favourite you can't do it. But in any other team situation, that's the kind of opportunistic deal I'd make understanding the T-Wolves have no leverage and those picks could well end up as something like a Celtics gaining Brooklyn Nets future first round pick kind of scenario where they've been clean robbed if things go your way.

And Thibs being all about the present, and the front office wanting to get rid of Dieng, it's a deal he'd probably agree to.

I don't really understand what this post is trying to say. It doesn't really have anything to do with the quote you replied to.

No team ever makes that trade by the way. I don't even think it works financially and can you trade 4 draft picks?
 
May 9, 2013
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OKC executives (rightly) get a lot of s**t for letting Harden go over $5M or so.

But Harden doesn't get any s**t for not sacrificing $5M to stay on a team that would probably have 2 or 3 championships had he stayed.

I think most NBA players would give up $5M over a career to have an extra 2 or 3 championships.

Guys like Durant/LeBron/Wade etc have been there and done it, and I'd be surprised if they didn't say they made the right decision.
 
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OKC executives (rightly) get a lot of s**t for letting Harden go over $5M or so.

But Harden doesn't get any s**t for not sacrificing $5M to stay on a team that would probably have 2 or 3 championships had he stayed.

I think most NBA players would give up $5M over a career to have an extra 2 or 3 championships.

Guys like Durant/LeBron/Wade etc have been there and done it, and I'd be surprised if they didn't say they made the right decision.
Durant gives up 5 million from 35. It's fine

But he got paaaasaid for several years in there. Plus he's still getting 30 so who cares... and endorsements

Harden was coming off a rookie deal and was given the keys to a team after coming off the bench and being 3rd or 4th banana. He's now a max level mvp with massive endorsements. I'd say that's worth a helluva lot more to him monetarily than 5 million per.

Plus, the owners are shall we say extremely well off, and the value of a title winning franchise goes up rather quickly. Just look at what the dubs are worth these days. You can't spend that money sure, but yeah you ain't losing money on a franchise in the association regardless of paying a few million in luxury tax.
 
May 9, 2013
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Durant gives up 5 million from 35. It's fine

But he got paaaasaid for several years in there. Plus he's still getting 30 so who cares... and endorsements

Harden was coming off a rookie deal and was given the keys to a team after coming off the bench and being 3rd or 4th banana. He's now a max level mvp with massive endorsements. I'd say that's worth a helluva lot more to him monetarily than 5 million per.

Plus, the owners are shall we say extremely well off, and the value of a title winning franchise goes up rather quickly. Just look at what the dubs are worth these days. You can't spend that money sure, but yeah you ain't losing money on a franchise in the association regardless of paying a few million in luxury tax.

I am 100% behind the owners getting s**t fwiw.

But Harden gets nothing about it.

He signed a contract for $80M over 5 years ($16M a season), instead of the $55M over 4 years ($14M a season). So, he signed somewhere else for (effectively) $6M for 4 years (or $1.5M a season). And obviously security of having the extra year.

Durant gave up $5M+ in a season. And taking risks on not signing a long term contract. Same goes for LeBron and co.

And from all reports, the reason he left was purely the money (https://bleacherreport.com/articles...ey-was-deciding-factor-in-leaving-okc-thunder).

I'm not saying Harden should have just signed for OKC. It's his life, he can do what he wants. But every other contract signing gets so much scrutiny (from both the players side and ownership side), it's weird that Harden doesn't cop it for signing somewhere else for less than 10% more and breaking up the best young squad in the league at the time.
 

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I certainly think coming off the rookie deal is relevant in this instance. OKC's offer was disrespectful. Giving up money on your second contract is a lot different to giving up money when you are much older and earning a lot more.
 
May 9, 2013
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With the knowledge of what's happened since, it obviously looks terrible for the ownership.

But offering a 6th man (who came off an abortion of a Finals) close to max is pretty rare thing. No one expected what Harden actually became.

I mean Harden's first 3 years 13/3/3 shooting 44/37
Wiggens first 3 years 20/4/2 shooting 45/33
 

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The longer Harden stayed as a sixth man the more likely he’d have been pigeon holed as one ala Lou Will, Ben Gordon, ect.

If you wanna be a Star in the league you’ve gotta be prepared to take those opportunities.
 
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The longer Harden stayed as a sixth man the more likely he’d have been pigeon holed as one ala Lou Will, Ben Gordon, ect.

If you wanna be a Star in the league you’ve gotta be prepared to take those opportunities.

Nah.
No way was Harden ever going to be a 6th man his whole career.

There is a gulf in skillsets between Harden and Williams/Gordon.
 

calyam

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With the knowledge of what's happened since, it obviously looks terrible for the ownership.

But offering a 6th man (who came off an abortion of a Finals) close to max is pretty rare thing. No one expected what Harden actually became.

I mean Harden's first 3 years 13/3/3 shooting 44/37
Wiggens first 3 years 20/4/2 shooting 45/33

I think you need to review Harden's third season. Despite his poor performance in the finals, he had an outstanding season and was clearly better than a sixth man type.

His advanced numbers were excellent in 2011-12 and even then you could argue he was better than Westbrook. He deserved the max.
 
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Fans of smaller franchises with s**t, greedy ownership might need to get comfortable with the possibility of following the Sonics in a couple of years time.

That group didnt spend the extra hundreds of millions on making the arena multi purpose for nothing and they've already locked away an NHL team.
 
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