Can Hawthorn succeed while ignoring the elite end of the draft?

[TheFourPillars]

You want me to remember the obvious ?

It doesn't require a cognitive approach.

Its quoting lists how good it looks and how your list is in better shape. All this talk is irrelevant.

 

[tommyk72]

What ?

Your dynasty is over. Finished. Done and dusted. Consigned to history.

You've lost your last 4 finals.

Your current collective are far from special. I don't want Melbourne compared to your list because it's a mile better.

I don’t quite understand this ‘straight sets’ issue that keeps on popping up in this thread (just quoting you as you were the last to mention it.

In my mind, there are three (or four) measures of success.

1/ Make finals.
(1a/ Make tip four).
2/ Make grand final.
3/ Win grand final.

Nothing else matters. We didn’t make the grand final. So we passed the first measure but not the second. No one else apart from WCE and pies passed measure 2. Everything else that happens in September (0 wins, 1 win, 2 wins) is irrelevant.

In our case, we had a good run with injuries, we demonstrated our best 25 is top 4 worthy (remember, we best hot finals contenders (and flag contenders according to James Hird)). But we fell over as we had injuries to key players at the wrong time. We were never going to win a GF with Mitchell, JOM and burgers all injured to varying degrees.

In my mind, we’ve significantly strengthened in the off season. We get a good run with injuries (as good as any other team) and we should easily past the first measure in 2019. Passing the other two is the next test.

 

[Trav 20]

someone said melbourne had a dynasty once what happened? ignore the draft too much?

What happened ?

It was an amateur era and the club was run by people unqualified to do the job.

This is the last time I school you in anything.

You're welcome.

 

[Trav 20]

Its quoting lists how good it looks and how your list is in better shape. All this talk is irrelevant.

All talk is irrelevant.

Results are all that counts.

 

[Trav 20]

I don’t quite understand this ‘straight sets’ issue that keeps on popping up in this thread (just quoting you as you were the last to mention it.

Performances in finals is what gets measured. If you lose 4 finals in a row your list isn't good enough and you're just making up the numbers. Clarkson and your list management know this which is why they aggressively use the trade period.

 

[Gavin Excell]

I don’t quite understand this ‘straight sets’ issue that keeps on popping up in this thread (just quoting you as you were the last to mention it.

In my mind, there are three (or four) measures of success.

1/ Make finals.
(1a/ Make tip four).
2/ Make grand final.
3/ Win grand final.

Nothing else matters. We didn’t make the grand final. So we passed the first measure but not the second. No one else apart from WCE and pies passed measure 2. Everything else that happens in September (0 wins, 1 win, 2 wins) is irrelevant.

In our case, we had a good run with injuries, we demonstrated our best 25 is top 4 worthy (remember, we best hot finals contenders (and flag contenders according to James Hird)). But we fell over as we had injuries to key players at the wrong time. We were never going to win a GF with Mitchell, JOM and burgers all injured to varying degrees.

In my mind, we’ve significantly strengthened in the off season. We get a good run with injuries (as good as any other team) and we should easily past the first measure in 2019. Passing the other two is the next test.

Because losing finals is a measure that the topping up strategy only gets you so far.

Competitive during season but fails at business end

 

[KermitJagger]

Because losing finals is a measure that the topping up strategy only gets you so far.

Competitive during season but fails at business end

What I don't understand is how going from 12th to top 4 is going backwards, straight sets exit aside.

 

[HairyO]

Hawthorn: list looks like it has some holes, straight sets, 12th, straight sets the last 3 years
Melbourne: list looks good on paper but have achieved nothing to this point, prelim flogging, Rd 23 choke, 11th the last 3 years

Do we have the making of the next BigFooty shitfight?

Nope. Melbourne have to amount to something first. Otherwise its just the noisy kids whining about not being allowed to sit at the adult table.

 

[HairyO]

What I don't understand is how going from 12th to top 4 is going backwards, straight sets exit aside.

Because BF logic is a wondrous thing.

 

[TheFourPillars]

All talk is irrelevant.

Results are all that counts.

Ahh yes very true. When it comes down to it we finished 4th and lost to you in a semi.
Lets see how we go next year. Many picked us to be 12 -14th this year because of our so called list.
Lets see how your so called list goes in the following years. Comparing lists on output you were slightly better than us in finals.
Not the so called bravado you implied by talking up ure list.

If lists were all that counted GWS would have won every year in the last few.

 

[Luv_our_club]

Because losing finals is a measure that the topping up strategy only gets you so far.

Competitive during season but fails at business end

So far the only example of your hypothesis is Geelong, at least in the era of free agency and modern trading.

You could be right, but more data is needed.

 

[Trav 20]

Ahh yes very true. When it comes down to it we finished 4th and lost to you in a semi.
Lets see how we go next year. Many picked us to be 12 -14th this year because of our so called list.
Lets see how your so called list goes in the following years. Comparing lists on output you were slightly better than us in finals.
Not the so called bravado you implied by talking up ure list.

If lists were all that counted GWS would have won every year in the last few.

Surely you're aware of the evolution of our journey ? Roos took over a 2 win/54% team. We've gone 2 wins, 4, 7, 10, 12, 14 (plus 2 finals). The only team to increase their wins record each year for 5 years.

There are 5 players left from the list of 44 Roos took over. Lewis was the only player to have played in a winning final.

We've achieved nothing yet - stating another obvious, but every club that eventually succeeds can trace a trajectory of improvement in performance. A young inexperienced team is tracking nicely.

I'm happy when I look at our linear progression. You'll appreciate that what you see is of no consequence.

 

[Leeda]

the lads we have will scrub up well, the lads we have recently acquired will jump in with gusto, and the coaches will also do their bit
by watering down the enthusiasm of everyone and getting everyone on the same page...

elite is just a word... potential is another word... endeavour... you get the picture...

 

[Pessimistic]

Performances in finals is what gets measured. If you lose 4 finals in a row your list isn't good enough and you're just making up the numbers. Clarkson and your list management know this which is why they aggressively use the trade period.

I reckon it took such as Melbourne or Richmond decades to lose four finals.

I’d hate to see how you crow when Melbourne actually do something (apart from hand over rather best coach in decades to Hawthorn)

 

[Gavin Excell]

So far the only example of your hypothesis is Geelong, at least in the era of free agency and modern trading.

You could be right, but more data is needed.

Sydney?

 

[Pessimistic]

Surely you're aware of the evolution of our journey ? Roos took over a 2 win/54% team. We've gone 2 wins, 4, 7, 10, 12, 14 (plus 2 finals). The only team to increase their wins record each year for 5 years.

There are 5 players left from the list of 44 Roos took over. Lewis was the only player to have played in a winning final.

We've achieved nothing yet - stating another obvious, but every club that eventually succeeds can trace a trajectory of improvement in performance. A young inexperienced team is tracking nicely.

I'm happy when I look at our linear progression. You'll appreciate that what you see is of no consequence.

Stead as she goes, grand final by 2022 eh?

Yet you don’t think Clarko should be even allowed four year and he’s going to sell the farm?

 

[Leeda]

Stead as she goes, grand final by 2022 eh?

Yet you don’t think Clarko should be even allowed four year and he’s going to sell the farm?

oh lordy does he have cows on the farm? no don't sell the farm...

 

[TheFourPillars]

Surely you're aware of the evolution of our journey ? Roos took over a 2 win/54% team. We've gone 2 wins, 4, 7, 10, 12, 14 (plus 2 finals). The only team to increase their wins record each year for 5 years.

There are 5 players left from the list of 44 Roos took over. Lewis was the only player to have played in a winning final.

We've achieved nothing yet - stating another obvious, but every club that eventually succeeds can trace a trajectory of improvement in performance. A young inexperienced team is tracking nicely.

I'm happy when I look at our linear progression. You'll appreciate that what you see is of no consequence.

No one doubts that melbourne are on the up.

 

[Nugett]

Sydney?

Sydney has been doing this for at least 15 years. Although cola probably helped them at the time. Kennedy, Mumford and McGlynn are good examples of them finding cheap trade pieces, that helped them. Barry Hall was another good pick up for them.

So what Geelong and Hawthorn are doing is putting on their own variations of what Sydney has done previously.

 

[Trav 20]

Yet you don’t think Clarko should be even allowed four year and he’s going to sell the farm?

What ?

 

[Leeda]

What ?

Your dynasty is over. Finished. Done and dusted. Consigned to history.

You've lost your last 4 finals.

Your current collective are far from special. I don't want Melbourne compared to your list because it's a mile better.

champ you're just resisting what you want.. it is easy to say no to something when it is right in your face...
you get angry with things and you're frustrated and then you go the long road and say it is all too hard..
keep at it.. keep being angry and keep being positive...

 

[Pessimistic]

What ?

You say a long climb from crap to 4th over five years is the signs of a good team, but 3rd. 12th. 4th is somehow bad?

Other than that it’s just our opinions

 

[Leeda]

take me as you will but don't take the piss when you don't know what/who you are dealing with...

watch what happens when I extend this to everyone else and what they say about me... Less and more take over...

 

[TallyHawk]

And expect Kevin "Shifter" Sheehan to come out swinging because Hawthorn is devaluing his reason for a job i.e. the AFL Draft.

I don't think Hawthorn devalue the draft, the reality is the talent we want may not last to our pick. That's not to say we give up on them, we just play the long game and trade for them later on.


On iPad using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Leeda]

I don't think Hawthorn devalue the draft, the reality is the talent we want may not last to our pick. That's not to say we give up on them, we just play the long game and trade for them later on.


On iPad using BigFooty.com mobile app

ah yes.. it is not about what you get but what you can do with what you get.. or what you want and where you can place them.. you
gather my mind with all the draft picks that seem silly at the time but if you can feel confident with them and with what you can do 'with'
them it is all good.. record repeating and clarko is being driven nuts at this point given that he already knows what he is up for..

smart dude he is ahead of you even when you don't even see it..