Good luck Jarryd Lyons

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King Elvis said:
Pretty amusing - so he was headhunted by Brisbane; not delisted by the GC.

Still better than at least 6 of our starting side.
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EDIT: He was Delisted by GC. This is the first step in the equation. Trading period was over and GC held all the rights. They literally didn't care enough to keep him so they released him. You think if this was Lachie Weller it would have gone down like this? C'mon... C'mooooonnnnnn.

So what? People on here are acting like its a massive coup by Brisbane to sneak in and steal a great player from Gold Coast.

Gold Coast know what they have in Lyons. They could have traded him earlier if he had any real value. After being told he wouldn't get opportunities in the 17th best side he has left to join the 15th best side under the guise of coaching opportunities in the not too distant future.

This whole thing is comical. Has as much importance and relevance as Jono Griffin going to Freo.
 
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Rave Slave said:
Alright you atrocious judges of football - listen the eff up.

For the season just gone Jarryd Lyons averaged 24.6 disposals in 18 games and averaged 7.2 clearances per game.

Considering he’s apparently a depth at best plodder who isn’t better than CEY he’s doing pretty well.

What is a Surprise is that those clearance numbers actually put him ahead of some players in the competition!

Sure, mostly no-name footballers with no inside ability - y’know Dangerfield, Martin and Fyfe - those garden variety rubbish footballers that are incorrectly worshipped as clearance machines when they’re actually depth footballers at best.

He’s even got his new teammate Lachie Neale (who some on this board would’ve willingly traded a kidney for) covered on clearances per game. Again, he’s depth at best though so really it shouldn’t be surprising.

This bloke is criminally underrated by the Kool-Aid crew and I hope he aids Brisbane in a meteoric rise to the point he gets to play in a flag and stick up two middle fingers - one at the suns and one at this fan base which didn’t deserve him.

Lyons is a gun and if you don’t rate him then I don’t rate you.
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Ah statistics. Can be damn misleading at times. Equally, if you're argument is that, I'm very glad you don't rate my opinions. That'd just demean me.

24.6 disposals for a pure inside midfielder is incredibly mediocre (to the point out of the 28 players who have 5+ clearance, I've only found 4 that are going at a worse amount, and all of them wouldn't be considered a contemporary to Matt Crouch/Tom Mitchell style of slow contested beast). 26.5+ disp is the cutoff point for when you're getting into accumulation is a weapon for a pure inside midfielder. Not a good selling point, especially in the only position where production is defined by disposals. Pure inside midfielders are death by a 1000 cuts type of player after all. Also for fun, Jarryd Lyons sits 13th for turnovers per game at 5.4 meaning 21% of the time he is touching the ball, it is directly going to the opposition. That is a staggering large number from a player who would be expected to play it safe disposal wise (CEY/Mrouch/Greenwood are all sitting around the 16-18.5% mark as an FYI). All up, that's not good at all.

Now the two stats you sell here are clearances and contested disposals. Both of them are at a rather fantastic place for Lyons. 7.3 clearances/13.6 contested disposals are at a very good pace. Potentially showing the limitation of the freely given stats as well seeing clearances isn't exactly a good stand alone stat. For clearances, how many attempts would be very important as well (a stat I would wager Lyons would have a very average percentage with), let alone how successful the clearance is. Especially in a side where Lyons has around a 3 clearances per game lead above everyone else indicates he is getting much more chances to fill his boots. Regardless, I'm hesitant to s**t on his one selling point, he is certainly competent on the inside.

Beyond that, it's quite meh. Tackle numbers are nice at 5.5 which is always good to see someone do defensive work. 368 meters is ok, though rather concerning toppled with a high turnover rate/very low DE%. Very indicative of a liability with ball in hand. 4.5 score involvements is also nice.

Equally that argument about Dangerfield/Martin/Fyfe is incredibly disingenuous. They're worshiped because being a clearance machine is one part of their game. They're also damaging players to boot, and some of the highest production players in the league. Not only that, but all of them are fighting other equally capable players for clearances (seeing all have a teammate < 1 clearance away from them), and there is only a finite amount of them. Lyons isn't offering his side anything more then contested disposal/clearances currently so to compare them for whatever point you're trying to make is just stupid.

Would Lyons be depth here? Without a doubt, and for the exact same reason CEY is depth here. Whilst both are competent inside midfielders, both don't stand a snowballs chance in hell of displacing Matt Crouch. Therefore their position in the side becomes as much a question of versatility as it is about production, and neither have any versatility whatsoever. In every single position bar inside midfielder in which you could put both, you are taking a loss in that position despite a potential upswing in midfield strength. Too slow to be a truly effective mid sized forward. Poor enough disposal to not be an option as a mid sized/rebounding defender. Too slow and not skilled enough to be a small forward. If you are not playing either of those two as your first choice inside midfielder, you're practically wasting your time. That loss can be lived with if you're a poor club trying to take the step to a mid table club, but mid to upper he a point of weakness that needs to be replaced with more well rounded options unless you can create almost niche conditions for him. Not only that, but the person he would be up against has that versatility (Greenwood has proven to be a rather competent forward so far this season, at 0.7 goals, and 4.9 SI) as well as offers more defensively/an equal amount offensively/being a bigger body. It's not even a contest there.

No one is underrating Lyons here. He's good enough for an AFL career, but not a must keep/amazeballs player. Hell it's arguable how important his position actually is and could quite likely get into a side gunning for a premiership with no real competent inside midfielders (Essendon 2017 but better as an example) just because he's a cheap option and could play a role in keeping more important players/attracting stars. I'd say it's much more likely he'll get delisted by Brisbane at the end of his three years and find a fourth club though which at this point in time, seems the odds on favorite to occur.

He is in the end of the day a lower tier journeyman midfielder, nothing more. Good on him for carving out such a niche.
 
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Golumless said:
Ah statistics. Can be damn misleading at times. Equally, if you're argument is that, I'm very glad you don't rate my opinions. That'd just demean me.

24.6 disposals for a pure inside midfielder is incredibly mediocre (to the point out of the 28 players who have 5+ clearance, I've only found 4 that are going at a worse amount, and all of them wouldn't be considered a contemporary to Matt Crouch/Tom Mitchell style of slow contested beast). 26.5+ disp is the cutoff point for when you're getting into accumulation is a weapon for a pure inside midfielder. Not a good selling point, especially in the only position where production is defined by disposals. Pure inside midfielders are death by a 1000 cuts type of player after all. Also for fun, Jarryd Lyons sits 13th for turnovers per game at 5.4 meaning 21% of the time he is touching the ball, it is directly going to the opposition. That is a staggering large number from a player who would be expected to play it safe disposal wise (CEY/Mrouch/Greenwood are all sitting around the 16-18.5% mark as an FYI). All up, that's not good at all.

Now the two stats you sell here are clearances and contested disposals. Both of them are at a rather fantastic place for Lyons. 7.3 clearances/13.6 contested disposals are at a very good pace. Potentially showing the limitation of the freely given stats as well seeing clearances isn't exactly a good stand alone stat. For clearances, how many attempts would be very important as well (a stat I would wager Lyons would have a very average percentage with), let alone how successful the clearance is. Especially in a side where Lyons has around a 3 clearances per game lead above everyone else indicates he is getting much more chances to fill his boots. Regardless, I'm hesitant to s**t on his one selling point, he is certainly competent on the inside.

Beyond that, it's quite meh. Tackle numbers are nice at 5.5 which is always good to see someone do defensive work. 368 meters is ok, though rather concerning toppled with a high turnover rate/very low DE%. Very indicative of a liability with ball in hand. 4.5 score involvements is also nice.

Equally that argument about Dangerfield/Martin/Fyfe is incredibly disingenuous. They're worshiped because being a clearance machine is one part of their game. They're also damaging players to boot, and some of the highest production players in the league. Not only that, but all of them are fighting other equally capable players for clearances (seeing all have a teammate < 1 clearance away from them), and there is only a finite amount of them. Lyons isn't offering his side anything more then contested disposal/clearances currently so to compare them for whatever point you're trying to make is just stupid.

Would Lyons be depth here? Without a doubt, and for the exact same reason CEY is depth here. Whilst both are competent inside midfielders, both don't stand a snowballs chance in hell of displacing Matt Crouch. Therefore their position in the side becomes as much a question of versatility as it is about production, and neither have any versatility whatsoever. In every single position bar inside midfielder in which you could put both, you are taking a loss in that position despite a potential upswing in midfield strength. Too slow to be a truly effective mid sized forward. Poor enough disposal to not be an option as a mid sized/rebounding defender. Too slow and not skilled enough to be a small forward. If you are not playing either of those two as your first choice inside midfielder, you're practically wasting your time. That loss can be lived with if you're a poor club trying to take the step to a mid table club, but mid to upper he a point of weakness that needs to be replaced with more well rounded options unless you can create almost niche conditions for him. Not only that, but the person he would be up against has that versatility (Greenwood has proven to be a rather competent forward so far this season, at 0.7 goals, and 4.9 SI) as well as offers more defensively/an equal amount offensively/being a bigger body. It's not even a contest there.

No one is underrating Lyons here. He's good enough for an AFL career, but not a must keep/amazeballs player. Hell it's arguable how important his position actually is and could quite likely get into a side gunning for a premiership with no real competent inside midfielders (Essendon 2017 but better as an example) just because he's a cheap option and could play a role in keeping more important players/attracting stars. I'd say it's much more likely he'll get delisted by Brisbane at the end of his three years and find a fourth club though which at this point in time, seems the odds on favorite to occur.

He is in the end of the day a lower tier journeyman midfielder, nothing more. Good on him for carving out such a niche.
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Sorry mate, usually we see eye to eye, but your whole argument is invalid, as is your view that Lyons is nothing more than a lower tier journeyman midfielder.

The stats you presented would have mounted a viable argument, had you not failed to take into account the quality, or lack thereof rather, of midfielders around Lyons at GC - those who are tasked with the job of blocking for him, creating space/separation and spread from the contest to enable fluidity of ball movement.

Alongside him he had the likes of Miller, Swallow and Fiorini for the most part, with flashes of Brodie, Ainsworth, Martin, Weller, Martin and Bowes.

If you take a closer look at the mids ranked above Lyons (and certainly below) in all those statistical categories you mentioned, you will find most are supported by far superior midfield crews.

If you're going to point out turnovers per game, at least recognise that the current Brownlow Medallist Tom Mitchell led the league in this category, and yes you'll no doubt argue Mitchell had far more disposals to make those extra errors, but anyone who watched enough of both Lyons' and Mitchell's footy would point out Mitchell's extra numbers were the result of close-in one-two's, backwards handballs and cheap subsequent handball receives.

Not only that, Dustin Martin sits below Lyons in terms of TO's per game, yet averages less than one disposal more than Lyons and had the luxury of playing outside the coal face for longer periods this year, so under far less less pressure when disposing of the ball.

Lyons' DE% and TO's are exactly what you'd expect, given the complete and utter garbage that was GC's midfield crew supporting him.

You fobbed off his 5.5 tackles a game as being "nice" - yet it ranks as absolutely elite, and good enough for 26th in the league and top 20 for "pure" inside mids. The fact he busts his gut to win the hard ball with little support around him in terms of any real quality, then offers an elite level of defensive work paints the picture of more than just a lower tier journeyman.

I'd go as far as saying he and Ben Cunnington are two of the most underrated and unheralded inside mids in the AFL.

Sure, they're not the quickest blokes going around, but neither are Matt Crouch, Patrick Cripps or Josh Kennedy, and there isn't an AFL midfield who wouldn't take any one of those three. Give me a pure footballer over an athlete all day, every day.

Seriously cannot understand some of the posters I considered astute judges who are happy to bag Lyons, probably the same ones who were happy to see us let him go at the expense of retaining an almost athritis-riddled Thommo on the list (don't get me wrong, I always will love Thommo, but how long did his development role last with us before he pissed off across town?), while nursing CEY back from an ACL and persisting with spuds like Hampton and Gore.

Yes you can argue Greenwood was given greater playing time and responsibility as a result, but with Dangerfield leaving he was always going to.

Lyons is quality depth in any midfield going around, and easily a top 3 mid in most of the bottom six sides this year. Those who suggest otherwise are kidding themselves, including GC. They are a farcical football club and Brisbane have got themselves a steal to add to their already quality, budding midfield depth, even after losing Beams.

Edit: Lyons* not Martin
 
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YKIMS said:
Seriously cannot understand some of the posters I considered astute judges who are happy to bag Lyons, probably the same ones who were happy to see us let him go at the expense of retaining an almost athritis-riddled Thommo on the list (don't get me wrong, I always will love Thommo, but how long did his development role last with us before he pissed off across town?), while nursing CEY back from an ACL and persisting with spuds like Hampton and Gore.
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People let their egos get in the way of basic common sense. It's easier for some to keep pedalling the line that Lyons is a s**t player than it is to accept that pick 43 and 67 was totally inadequate compensation for a player of Lyons quality and that our list managers blundered by giving Thompson an extra year. If we had picked up some gun players with those picks, I probably wouldn't still be annoyed about it but we essentially got Poholke and Signerello for him which only adds salt to the wound. Anybody who thinks we came out of the Lyons trade as winners is either a moron or an egomaniac.
 

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Huntercrow said:
Is this the same David Noble who supposedly didn’t rate JL?
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Where did this come from again?

We always liked JL but he couldn't play Matt Crouch, JL and Scott Thompson in the same side. Too many similar types...similar size, similar pace, similar games as midfielders. We made a call which I am comfortable with.

JL got the offer from GC that was too good to refuse and we could not match it because we were of the belief that we were going to get Gibbs that trade period. We didn't and Lyons went off to GC. Not a huge loss. Our midfield performed as good as any in 2017 without Lyons. Just because we were not willing to offer him the sort of deal GC offered him, it doesn't mean we didn't like him. Essentially, we backed in Matt Crouch as a better player and rightly so. JL is a good solid player but he would still be too much of a similar thing in our midfield if he was here.
 
Mr_Moogle said:
People let their egos get in the way of basic common sense. It's easier for some to keep pedalling the line that Lyons is a s**t player than it is to accept that pick 43 and 67 was totally inadequate compensation for a player of Lyons quality and that our list managers blundered by giving Thompson an extra year. If we had picked up some gun players with those picks, I probably wouldn't still be annoyed about it but we essentially got Poholke and Signerello for him which only adds salt to the wound. Anybody who thinks we came out of the Lyons trade as winners is either a moron or an egomaniac.
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Gold Coast certainly didn't
 
So Gold Coast are happy to let go an inside mid with no outside speed and then look to bring in Murdoch for the outside speed

Meanwhile Brisbane have some outside speed and look to bring in some inside help in Neale and Lyons

Who knows how these things work
 
Yes JL stats look pretty.

But Dewey talked about his lack of spread as a reason for being dropped this year.


"He's found a lot of the ball recently, but also we need him to cover the ground really well and we thought on the MCG we needed a little bit more run."

http://m.afl.com.au/news/2018-11-02/the-reasons-gold-coast-may-have-let-lyons-walk


Physically he is just not up to one of the most aerobically challenging tasks in the game, the inside mid. And his skillset does not suit too many other roles. The guys that play this role (MCrouch for us) are one of the most important players on the ground. They need to be at every contest and the Suns coaches would have the precise GPS data (not just a raw heatmap) to know if he does or not.



Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
 
Stiffy_18 said:
Where did this come from again?

We always liked JL but he couldn't play Matt Crouch, JL and Scott Thompson in the same side. Too many similar types...similar size, similar pace, similar games as midfielders. We made a call which I am comfortable with.

JL got the offer from GC that was too good to refuse and we could not match it because we were of the belief that we were going to get Gibbs that trade period. We didn't and Lyons went off to GC. Not a huge loss. Our midfield performed as good as any in 2017 without Lyons. Just because we were not willing to offer him the sort of deal GC offered him, it doesn't mean we didn't like him. Essentially, we backed in Matt Crouch as a better player and rightly so. JL is a good solid player but he would still be too much of a similar thing in our midfield if he was here.
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Bang on the money.....Why some couldn't see this at the time and still can't is unbelievable. I guess it just doesn't suit their agenda.
 
Geoffa32 said:
Yes JL stats look pretty.

But Dewey talked about his lack of spread as a reason for being dropped this year.


"He's found a lot of the ball recently, but also we need him to cover the ground really well and we thought on the MCG we needed a little bit more run."

http://m.afl.com.au/news/2018-11-02/the-reasons-gold-coast-may-have-let-lyons-walk


Physically he is just not up to one of the most aerobically challenging tasks in the game, the inside mid. And his skillset does not suit too many other roles. The guys that play this role (MCrouch for us) are one of the most important players on the ground. They need to be at every contest and the Suns coaches would have the precise GPS data (not just a raw heatmap) to know if he does or not.



Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
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This says it all..from that article.

The knocks on Lyons as a footballer, dating back to his Adelaide days, include his running capacity, defensive transition and ability to win the Sherrin away from the contest.
Suns coach Stuart Dew's public commentary was consistent on Lyons throughout the year, with repeated references to his work rate and follow-up efforts after stoppages.
"JL's an interesting one," Dew said after dropping Lyons for a second time ahead of round 20.
"He's found a lot of the ball recently, but also we need him to cover the ground really well and we thought on the MCG we needed a little bit more run."
Lyons' kick rating, based on players' ability to hit a target of varying difficulty, is minus-7.8 per cent, which ranked 76th out of the 85 full-time midfielders.
He played 76.6 per cent game time this year, putting him in a similar bracket to the likes of Ben Cunnington (77.4), Trent Cotchin (76.7), Zach Merrett (76.3) and Ollie Wines (75.4).
Seventy-nine of his 93 minutes per match were spent in the midfield or on the wing (ranked 39th out of that same 85) and his average on-field stint between breaks was 12 minutes 3 seconds (47th).
 
From that same article, this is a pretty damning statement about the previous regime and their approach to player augments, which they had recently defended as not being out of control

"We've created a multi-year plan to get the TPP (total player payments) back into a far more flexible and responsible position that's going to require some difficult decisions at different times throughout that period," Haines said
 
Mr_Moogle said:
By letting one of their best mids walk out the door for nothing? That's a bold strategy. Let's see how it pays off.
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I think from that article that their definition of “best” had to include not just clearance numbers but speed, spread, work rate to get to contests (possibly also code for slow) and poor delivery by foot
 
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