Roast Media/McClure Misrepresenting Mental Mess on Mindful Camp

[subaru]

Oooh you said don’t. Good on you.
Maybe if you read and listened you could sustain a debate without resorting to 5 year old dribble, you would see other points of view.
You’re a sensationalist, as above NO ONE ever said they knew what went on exactly on the camp, you make stuff up like that all the time.
Over and out with you.

Stop





Digging

 

[subaru]

I’d say it was clearly McGovern’s manager spilling

You would, would you ?

No mention about all the players that disputed the camp stuff or the 18 that re signed ????

 

[subaru]

To be honest mate most of that is just waffle and your opinion not facts.

Absolutely the season was a mess 100% club/player responsible for.

1. I don’t believe for 1 minute the media just make stuff up out of thin air, they obviously get told things and go from there.
For example if he’s just made up that they’ve been blindfolded on a bus trip, had their mobiles taken and listened to the Richmond song repeatedly for 24 hrs that’s a pretty amazing guess.
Because they did go on a bus trip have the song played (pyke says played but not on repeat - mid year presser, however CM said it was sung by a comedian, stories don’t match here) had their mobiles taken. - To me that’s batting at 75% right not the 5% you talk about and certainly gold star worthy if he’s just guessed all of it.

2. You don’t win the JLT, they are infact just practice games, so if you want the media held to account for getting things incorrect then you need to get things correct as well
For the record we scraped over the line against a Freo and we know how bad they were this year and lost to Port, hardly winning the JLT even if you could.
Curtly for the record had an ok freo game and a poor port game.
You say they didn’t look distress (opinion not fact) Fagan said the realized in the weeks after that some players were upset by the camp and had issues with it. Whereas burton in the mid year presser said there were no lingering issue post the camp. Another discrepancy in our stories.
Also you don just look at the immediate aftermath you need to look st the whol season. Just take a look at 4 players reportedly who didn’t enjoy the camp.
Hampton - retired due to mental health problems
Betts - his worst statistical year for us and his worst in 9 years.
Jacobs - his 2nd worst statistical year for us and worst in 7 years. Admitted he didn’t like the camp and it affected the side all year.
McGovern- wanted out of a contract only a few months after signing a 3 year deal. (Note he turned down a more lucrative long term offer to go home and stay with us)
Not really a great record from those players is it?

3. Not a false fact at all, actually it’s a FACT that physiologists weren’t involved with the camp, not sure why you’d suggest this is false.
It’s once Again your opinion that they don’t need to be involved but I suspect this is where the lack of due diligence that we and the afl admitted we failed in implementing.
Now feenix did a lot more research on CM than I have or ever want to do. But when a company has to twist their history, training and past clients to make it better than it is, it’s a bit worrying.
4. Once again an opinion.

So all in all you haven’t really touched on the 95% bullshit the media pedaled it was just opinions.

Now you and most people seem to be in agreement that the club handled the situation terribly.
Handled a situation that WE (see Brett Burton) put our selves in terribly.
I just don’t get how the club or Brett get off lightly at all, you seem to be so focused on the media being meanies when really it’s ALL our fault.
I also don’t know how you expect the media to do its job when we chose to freeze them out?
So how exactly does Brett still have a job?
It hasn’t been debunked by the club that he kept the camp from key people in the club and the board. This could be a key contributor to us now implementing a full time integrity officer.

Congratulations you’ve made me post my longest post in big footy yet!

Did I see you say waffle in your first sentence ????

 

[FR0GGY]

Stop





Digging

I’m not in any hole, remember it was you that said we knew exactly what went on at the camp. - lie

 

[FR0GGY]

You would, would you ?

No mention about all the players that disputed the camp stuff or the 18 that re signed ????

Different conversation it’s got nothing to do with the other players?

No mention that Jacobs said it affected them? Sure he rebuffed some off the things said but clearly it affected them.

 

[FR0GGY]

Did I see you say waffle in your first sentence ????

Yes if you read and followed the conversation, John was talking about presenting facts and then proceeded to give opinions.
But I wouldn’t expect you to follow a conversation.

 

[TexForPM]

CrowCast broke it a week before McClure did.

Perhaps CrowCast is the problem.

 

[subaru]

I’m not in any hole, remember it was you that said we knew exactly what went on at the camp. - lie

Lie

I said you had no idea what went on.

You chose to believe the media

 

[John Who]

Yes if you read and followed the conversation, John was talking about presenting facts and then proceeded to give opinions.
But I wouldn’t expect you to follow a conversation.

You do realise that you’re also talking in opinions as well? And you’re “facts” are actually based on assumptions.

For example, there were no psychologists involved in the Camp. This is a fact, no arguments. You then made a statement as though presumed fact “mind training camps should have psychologists involved”. You failed to recognise that this is an opinion, not fact.

I’ve been to many school camps with teachers making students doing mind training activities and building mateship. I can safely say as fact none of these teachers were previously psychologists.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

You do realise that you’re also talking in opinions as well? And you’re “facts” are actually based on assumptions.

For example, there were no psychologists involved in the Camp. This is a fact, no arguments. You then made a statement as though presumed fact “mind training camps should have psychologists involved”. You failed to recognise that this is an opinion, not fact.

I’ve been to many school camps with teachers making students doing mind training activities and building mateship. I can safely say as fact none of these teachers were previously psychologists.

I've said this B4, but I've been on a half a dozen such camps for Leadership, Team Building ect ......everything from Fire-walking, to Absailing, to white water rapids on the Thompson River.... to Deep Cave Walking with no lights

NOT ONCE was there a Psychologists .....but not only that ...NOT ONCE was there a Doctor or anyone with any medical training present, and that included the Firewalking ! ....and these were very large local and international organizations

 

[FR0GGY]

You do realise that you’re also talking in opinions as well? And you’re “facts” are actually based on assumptions.

For example, there were no psychologists involved in the Camp. This is a fact, no arguments. You then made a statement as though presumed fact “mind training camps should have psychologists involved”. You failed to recognise that this is an opinion, not fact.

I’ve been to many school camps with teachers making students doing mind training activities and building mateship. I can safely say as fact none of these teachers were previously psychologists.

Yes its an opinion, not sure i claimed it was a fact? I wasn't the one going on about the media not using facts.
Going on school camps is a lot different to a professional club looking for an edge. Youre not seeming to acknowledge that the club and AFL found we had poor due diligence in regards to this. What could that be for do you think?
Im still waiting for the 95% bullshit to 5% fact claim, backup, it's nothing like it at all.

 

[FR0GGY]

Lie

I said you had no idea what went on.

You chose to believe the media

no you said this - your words

Ask them
They “knew” what happened on the camp they just couldn’t “say anything” and when we asked for proof - then some crap about “pm’s” proved they knew everything.


The refrain was one of “inside sources” and that the media were right - s**t went down.


Turns out - they knew nothing and blew what they did “ know” completely out of proportion.

Facts were out the window.


I CBF’d going back over that thread but those posters involved in that effort were no different to Sam McManure

See you have no idea, TAFKMS is the poster you're referring to, he was the one that broke the story on crow cast before Mclure, you didn't believe him so he posted his pm to show when he sent the message to them (proof) then you went off and he got narky. If you go back he actually says he's not sure why McGovern wants out but would try and find out. \
Nothing at all about knowing what went on.
As it's since been proved he was exactly right mcgovern is now at carlton.
I think its telling you still don't know who the poster is.
3 years ago you would be vehemently defending him as a crows player if anyone dared to say anything negative about him.
Once again i have never claimed to be in the know, I'm just suggesting where there was smoke there was fire and as it turned out a lot more than you guys thought and probably less than we thought. See Sam Jacobs last interview, where he said not everything reported was true (der) but it affected them all year.
People still haven't said what the worst thing Mclure has said that was proved wrong, as far as I can see its mark Williams and Danny Frawley that got things wrong.

 

[Vikingblood]

Mitch McGovern was tied naked to a tree while the Richmond song was played on a bus, driven by a blindfolded aboriginal elder. David Mackay was used as a traditional spirit stick which offended the football gods which proceeded to smite the Crows with an unusual number of soft tissue injuries during the 2018 season. Luckily we hired a full time integrity officer to sweep all of this under the carpet...... allegedly.

That is the most concise and accurate account I have read.

 

[Vikingblood]

Particularly Mark Williams. DH'd.

I am completely bemused that the club is not (or so it seems) suing Williams for his part in this.
That complete bumbling, mumbling D/H just trotted out a complete pile of s**t and is not being held accountable for it at all.

 

[John Who]

Yes its an opinion, not sure i claimed it was a fact? I wasn't the one going on about the media not using facts.
Going on school camps is a lot different to a professional club looking for an edge. Youre not seeming to acknowledge that the club and AFL found we had poor due diligence in regards to this. What could that be for do you think?
Im still waiting for the 95% bullshit to 5% fact claim, backup, it's nothing like it at all.

You seem to have completely missed the point WW made:

I've said this B4, but I've been on a half a dozen such camps for Leadership, Team Building ect ......everything from Fire-walking, to Absailing, to white water rapids on the Thompson River.... to Deep Cave Walking with no lights

NOT ONCE was there a Psychologists .....but not only that ...NOT ONCE was there a Doctor or anyone with any medical training present, and that included the Firewalking ! ....and these were very large local and international organizations

What WW pointed out is that you don't need a psychologist for mind-training/team-bonding camps. This is actually FACT, not opinion. Look back through all the footy premiers in the past 30 odd years, and do you see a psychologist being a part of any premiership team's preseason camps/activities?

Brian Taylor pointed out the same thing as I've shown in the OP in one of the footages.

If it's a fact that a psychologist was needed to be part of the mind-training camp, then wouldn't it be as simple as the AFL recommending a psychologist in our next preseason activity? And if it was indeed recommended, then why did we hire a full-time integrity officer instead of a new psychologist?

The need for a psychologist to be involved in a preseason, is a false assumption. History never told us it was needed!

 

[FR0GGY]

You seem to have completely missed the point WW made:

What WW pointed out is that you don't need a psychologist for mind-training/team-bonding camps. This is actually FACT, not opinion. Look back through all the footy premiers in the past 30 odd years, and do you see a psychologist being a part of any premiership team's preseason camps/activities?

Brian Taylor pointed out the same thing as I've shown in the OP in one of the footages.

If it's a fact that a psychologist was needed to be part of the mind-training camp, then wouldn't it be as simple as the AFL recommending a psychologist in our next preseason activity? And if it was indeed recommended, then why did we hire a full-time integrity officer instead of a new psychologist?

The need for a psychologist to be involved in a preseason, is a false assumption. History never told us it was needed!

I’m not sure it’s me who’s missed the point, the camp wasn’t physical like every experience Wayne suggested he’s done. It was purely mental.
To not have a doctor around when doing fire walking I would suggest is pretty average.
Would you hope when you send your car in for mechanical work the person is adequately trained?
How about an operation, would you hope the surgeon is trained in that area?
So how did we fail with the due diligence part, as I asked before?
And once again if that’s the worst Maclure did was suggest we should have had a physiologist at the camp well... then I’m not sure it’s him making a mountain out of a molehill.
Yes maybe a physiologist is over kill but people adequately trained is not.

 

[SaltPeter]

So how did we fail with the due diligence part, as I asked before?
And once again if that’s the worst Maclure did was suggest we should have had a physiologist at the camp well... then I’m not sure it’s him making a mountain out of a molehill.

Leading Teams blindfolded the North Adelaide players, put them on a bus, and drove them out then bush 10-15years ago. Dropped them off in small groups and told them to make there own way home (back to the camp). Not much fuss made about that camp

 

[FR0GGY]

Leading Teams blindfolded the North Adelaide players, put them on a bus, and drove them out then bush 10-15years ago. Dropped them off in small groups and told them to make there own way home (back to the camp). Not much fuss made about that camp

Not really sure it’s comparable, different group.
Had they gone through the trauma this group has?
This seems to be the big problem, the club/CM missed the mark big time.
It wasn’t what the group needed at the time.

 

[kirky]

Not really sure it’s comparable, different group.
Had they gone through the trauma this group has?
This seems to be the big problem, the club/CM missed the mark big time.
It wasn’t what the group needed at the time.

Trauma? A strong word. Please elaborate.

 

[Sanders]

See, this is where there is misunderstanding between groups of fans relating to this topic. The Camp reporting was a SEPARATE issue of how much of a debacle our season was. I'm agreeing with you and have agreed countless times that the season, as a whole, was a complete mess! Can we agree that we agree on this?

Ok, so then the issue now is simply how much truth was in the initial media reports of the preseason Camp? A lot of people seem to take the lazy approach and think "smoke and fire", so they automatically assume 50/50 (media half right, club half right). The point of this thread is to highlight the total inaccuracies of the initial reports by the media, and the ratio of truth to lies by them is more likely 5% truth and 95% BS.

I have mentioned before on other threads, I have personal experience with mental illness, and also having dealt with many others with mental illnesses. This has given me some insight into the patterns of dishonesty by the media when they used such terms as "debacle" and "disaster". Player(s) being upset, stressed or unhappy about the Camp is not the same as depression/mental illness (which was more their implication) by using the reference to "mind training camp disaster".

I will try and discuss more detail as to why I've come to the conclusion about the media very early on that it was BS reporting:

1. they were giving out info that there were blindfolds and Tiger's song on a loop.
- exactly how can this be actually distressing? considering the Crows players have heard this song countless of times before in other years, and will listen some more after this year
- this info they used was basically a rubbish info right from the start, which gave already clues there's some hidden agenda going on, and not based on actual FACTS
- we then beat the Tigers in the 2nd round, which confirmed my suspicions that there was no torment going on from "blindfolds, Tiger's song on a loop".

2. As with any psychologists/psychiatrists when dealing with mental health, they don't just only listen to dialogues from their clients. They also use speech and behavioral cues to assess the severity of mental distress. McNure et al, were reliant of the public to look at the objective result (win:loss ratio), and not reliant on ACTUALLY looking at the players' non-verbal cues of signs of distress. I made a point before that in the first 2 months immediate to the aftermath of the Camp, there were no actual signs (non-verbal cues) from any of the players that they were in psychological distress. In fact, we actually won the AFLX (with Hampton playing a fair part in it) and we were 4th after round 9. Bearing in mind, we had achieved this despite all our weekly hammies and ankles/feet injuries!

3. Another main point they kept hounding on was the fact no psychologists were involved with the "mind training" Camp. This is another false fact, because there are many team bonding, stress debrief camps, that have no need for a psychologist. In fact, most camps that AFL teams participate you could classify them all as "mind training/strengthening" and no psychologists were likely to have ever been involved during any of those camps.
Furthermore, we had significant success with Collective Minds with last year's GF participation, so it's not like they haven't done any good for us before with whatever they were doing in the past!

4. This follows on from point 3 - the implication that psychologists are the be-all of mental health/strengthening. This I can categorically say is absolute BS. Let me paint a picture for you...would you rather be motivated by:
a). A motivational speaker who had lived a hard life, maybe with drugs and alcohol in the past, but has since reformed and found light at the end of the tunnel?
b). A psychologist who spends 30 minutes with you, but seemingly looking at the watch more than you, and not really hearing your side of the story?
This by no means I'm implying psychologists are useless, but more the point that the qualifications are not so much important in motivating others, but the life experiences and the intention to help others should be the key criteria.

I needed to get this bloody essay off my chest. It's been brewing in my head these last few months!

You have NFI about what is fact and what are inaccuracies

NFI

And neither do I FWIW. So why are you pretending that you do? Like everyone else you’ve chosen what you would like to believe, fair enough, but that’s all it is.

The report hasn’t been release there is no testing of the evidence or the claims.

There are no facts, there are no inaccuracies known. Just beliefs and biases

 

[Sanders]

I said “don’t”

You’re in a hole - stop digging

And your the worst of them. FFS.

Your posts should come up in orange comic sans

 

[Sanders]

Stick to shorter responses is my advice - at least John Who has an intelligent argument that can be defended - responses that are naive at best and lacking intellect at worst are very common out there

Lol. Good one John

 

[Sanders]

I’ve been to many school camps with teachers making students doing mind training activities and building mateship.

Did they know you were there?

 

[Sanders]

I am completely bemused that the club is not (or so it seems) suing Williams for his part in this.
That complete bumbling, mumbling top bloke just trotted out a complete pile of s**t and is not being held accountable for it at all.

Do you know why organisations don’t sue in situations like this?

People get cross examined, under oath. People from both sides, and that can open up a lot of public scrutiny in areas you don’t want it

 

[Sanders]

You seem to have completely missed the point WW made:

What WW pointed out is that you don't need a psychologist for mind-training/team-bonding camps. This is actually FACT, not opinion. Look back through all the footy premiers in the past 30 odd years, and do you see a psychologist being a part of any premiership team's preseason camps/activities?

Brian Taylor pointed out the same thing as I've shown in the OP in one of the footages.

If it's a fact that a psychologist was needed to be part of the mind-training camp, then wouldn't it be as simple as the AFL recommending a psychologist in our next preseason activity? And if it was indeed recommended, then why did we hire a full-time integrity officer instead of a new psychologist?

The need for a psychologist to be involved in a preseason, is a false assumption. History never told us it was needed!

Wrong again.

Your facts are once again, not factual.

it not fact that psychologists are not needed for camps and team bonding experiences. You claimed this was fact and not opinion. It is opinion, and a wrong opinion

What matters, and what determines the level of care, welfare, and professional input is the nature of the activity. Depending on what was being done, to what extent, intensity and duration, would decide what input and from who is needed

You’re a quack John Who, a quack