Which team is closer to playing in finals - Carlton, Gold Coast or St Kilda?

[Juddernaut08]

And right there is the problem.

Games of footy are still won in the midfield. Murphy isn't the player he was and Curnow is a ball butcher.

Then you've got Cripps, the poor bastard, and a bunch of unproven kids.

It's years from being able to regularly beat a Collingwood side with Beams, Sidebottom, Pendlebury, Adams, Treloar, Sier, Crisp, Phillips, Varcoe.

Collingwood's mids are proven and banked. And it's not like they won't continue to add to it.

It has never been harder to drag yourself out of the bottom four. It can take years. Even if you make great choices it can still take a very long time.

This will be a very slow process for Carlton.

It is slow...even if we made finals At the very least we can say that the timing of recruits was smarter this go round. KPPs first, midfielders second.

Theoretically they should peak together meaning we could see a marked jump. Is that 2019? 2020? 2021? We say most likely 2020.

If most of the recuits are duds then it may not happen. But there's nothing individually to suggest the majority of our young recruits are duds.

Firstly, I was going off memory with regards to bottom 5. But you must have been so excited to look at historical ladders and discover, "I've got him, we were only bottom 6 in 2014 and not bottom 5 for the last five years". Well done you. You went from bottom third of the ladder to bottom third of the ladder. "We're marginally less crap than he said, but we proved him wrong".

Secondly, when I referred to a "bottom 4 club" I assumed it was obvious I was referring to a club that had spent considerable time at the bottom of the ladder and not just a single year. Oh gee, there I am "moving the goalposts again". No, I'm just dealing with a special person.

When one talks of graduating out of the bottom four they're talking about a club mired there. It's pretty obvious. Unless, of course, you're an idiot.

Stop with the name calling.

 

[davis_756]

You are so excited by your future prospects and blue sky expectations that anyone who pulls the brakes on those opinions is a curmudgeon.

Despite the temptation due to past quarreling with St Kilda posters, I don't refer to the Shangai Saints as a "bottom four club" on the back of one year. One year can be an aberration. It's why I don't call players A-graders off the back of one great year.

A "bottom four club" has had numerous appearances in the bottom four. Surely, I'm not the only supporter of Aussie Rules who uses this term in a historical sense. It's a label for underachievers. You know, like Carlton.

And to finish, my views have been clearly expressed as to why the road to hoe is long for the Carlton Football Club. Your midfield has one A-grader, a couple of older players that help out, and a gaggle of unproven sub 20 disposal kids.

Pro tip: The last sentence in the last paragraph is the key.

You're special, Davis.

Do you read or what? I quite clearly stated

For the sake of moving on from this point I will concede your point, you meant bottom 6 sides that have been in the bottom 6 for 5 years or more when you said "hard to drag yourself out of the bottom 4".

Yet you spend an entire reply responding as though we were still arguing the point, I can only determine you are in a blinded rage and incapable of having a reasoned discussion at this point.

So you're telling me your justification for why clubs that have been down the bottom for a while is because CARLTON has only 1 A grade midfielder? What about every other side that has done the same as was the point you were making?

 

[Trav 20]

Get your hand off it, the only player who I mentioned would be insulted by the statement that cripps is our only quality midfielder is Murphy.

Why make s**t up like that? It is pathetic

I wasn't quoting you, Kid.

That said, the poster I quoted didn't actually say they were "quality players", but the inference could be drawn.

Are you going to apologise for stating I was "making s**t up" and quoting you ?

 

[davis_756]

I wasn't quoting you, Kid.

That said, the poster I quoted didn't actually say they were "quality posters", but the inference could be drawn.

Are you going to apologise for stating I was "making s**t up" and quoting you ?

Care to go back and quote the post of the magical poster you are referring to because I followed the quote train and got back to the discussion we were having in which those players were mentioned in.

Until then you are again making s**t up.

 

[Trav 20]

Care to go back and quote the post of the magical poster you are referring to because I followed the quote train and got back to the discussion we were having in which those players were mentioned in.

Until then you are again making s**t up.

To be fair to NavyBlue on the previous page he never said they were "quality", he said they were not "unproven". My post was inaccurate when I was reffering to him.

Your post insinuating I was quoting you regarding said players was also inaccurate.

 

[davis_756]

To be fair to NavyBlue on the previous page he never said they were "quality", he said they were not "unproven". My post was inaccurate when I was reffing to him.

Your post insinuating I was quoting you regarding said players was also inaccurate.

You were responding to someone who was responding to your response of me, how difficult is that to understand?

 

[LoungeLizard]

Don't knit pick your little edits, go back to the start.



You were saying?

OMG, are your trying to tell us all you didn't have the worst start to any season, in the history of your club?

I am not nit picking mate, this is a fact, if you don't believe me, the results can be found, go have a look.

Like i said earlier, if you weren't as bad as you say, then by christ i'd hate to see when you are bad.

 

[Joao]

I'm putting a few Bob on Carlton for finals in 2019 and a 3peat in the 20s.

 

[davis_756]

OMG, are your trying to tell us all you didn't have the worst start to any season, in the history of your club?

I am not nit picking mate, this is a fact, if you don't believe me, the results can be found, go have a look.

Like i said earlier, if you weren't as bad as you say, then by christ i'd hate to see when you are bad.

You were declaring we had gone backwards this year because we only won 2 games, nothing to do with how poor or great our start to the season was. My point was also nothing to do with how good or bad we were, it was in relation to your gone backwards call.

Surely it is not that difficult to grasp the fact the two are not the same, yes we were poor but no we have not gone backwards. Not all growth is linear a fact you clearly don't have the ability to understand.

 

[Trav 20]

You were responding to someone who was responding to your response of me, how difficult is that to understand?

You said that you had been quoted when you hadn't. You must be a nightmare to live with.

Anyway, I'm going to bow out kid.

 

[HalloweenJack]

This thread is tedious with posters trying to score points off each other and some not facing reality. I voted for Carlton because I am biased.

The Saints are much more likely to play finals before the Blues or the Suns but potentially the Blues and the Suns have better lists.

This year the Blues were pathetic as well as heartbreaking. I am hoping that a few of our young players do step up in 2019 and become A graders. At the moment the Blues only have Cripps and Docherty who can be said to be A graders. The others still only have potential.

As for the best lists, well if Lukoscious (?) and Rankine become the players that I think they can become and the Suns draft a few other gems next year, who knows what happens. My opinion is that the Suns are 3-4 years away from finals. A lot of things have to go right for them if that is to happen.

The Saints in drafting Max King may have drafted the best player. As I said the Saints could make finals in 2019.

The Blues could make finals next year but I doubt it because the improvement would be monumental. I am hoping for at least 6 wins and then pushing for finals in 2020 and making top 4 by 2021.

 

[LoungeLizard]

You were declaring we had gone backwards this year because we only won 2 games, nothing to do with how poor or great our start to the season was. My point was also nothing to do with how good or bad we were, it was in relation to your gone backwards call.

Surely it is not that difficult to grasp the fact the two are not the same, yes we were poor but no we have not gone backwards. Not all growth is linear a fact you clearly don't have the ability to understand.

Well mate if you think you haven't gone backward, then you know absolutely nothing about football.
1st of all, you had the worst start to any season in your history, that's going backwards.
Secondly, you had less wins and less %, than last year, that's going backward.

Now if you want to bring up, "but hey, look who we recruited, but, but we had injuries, but, but potential, it makes no difference, since your club was formed, you have recruited every year, you have had injuries.

Sorry to say mate, but if you don't get your head out of the sand soon, you'll run out of breath.

 

[mr bagcroft]

This thread is tedious with posters trying to score points off each other and some not facing reality. I voted for Carlton because I am biased.

The Saints are much more likely to play finals before the Blues or the Suns but potentially the Blues and the Suns have better lists.

This year the Blues were pathetic as well as heartbreaking. I am hoping that a few of our young players do step up in 2019 and become A graders. At the moment the Blues only have Cripps and Docherty who can be said to be A graders. The others still only have potential.

As for the best lists, well if Lukoscious (?) and Rankine become the players that I think they can become and the Suns draft a few other gems next year, who knows what happens. My opinion is that the Suns are 3-4 years away from finals. A lot of things have to go right for them if that is to happen.

The Saints in drafting Max King may have drafted the best player. As I said the Saints could make finals in 2019.

The Blues could make finals next year but I doubt it because the improvement would be monumental. I am hoping for at least 6 wins and then pushing for finals in 2020 and making top 4 by 2021.

lol. Saints are not going anywhere near finals for a good while yet. They have many more problems than needing one or two good kids.

 

[HalloweenJack]

lol. Saints are not going anywhere near finals for a good while yet. They have many more problems than needing one or two good kids.

Don't count them out. The Saints have some very good players and if 3 maybe 4 can elevate themselves to A graders then anything is possible.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Don't count them out. The Saints have some very good players and if 3 maybe 4 can elevate themselves to A graders then anything is possible.

I think a lot of Saints fans still aren't sold on Richo. Poor bloke has lower approval ratings than Bill Shorton.

 

[TeeJay Blue]

Good grief. You really are deluded.

Dow is a sub 15 disposal player, which is fair enough given his age, so of course he's a mile off being "quality".

Fisher is sub 20 disposals with a sub 70 player rating average. He may become A-grade, but right now he's C to C-.

Personally, I'd rate quality as B+ and above.

As for Nathan Jones ? Of course he's past it. That's no revelation. Going into 2019 I'd rank him B-.

You and some of your cohorts need a dose of reality.

You must be shocked to be a 2 win/59% team.

You're the one that's deluded here.

Was I calling Dow and Fisher 'quality'? No! You were implying that they're 'unproven', which is the biggest load of crap I've read here.

Second of all, it's great that you're not in such a business of actually grading talent because you're only punishing yourself with those high standards.

And just because a player has past his peak, that doesn't mean they're no longer good. I'm sure you and thousands of other supporters think Jones has still got some value left in him. So quit talking rubbish about another club's veterans.

All us blues supporters are frustrated with their team's results this year but we know where the problems lie, and believe that fixing them will see noticeable improvement. We're bad but not as bad as people make us out to be.

Stop comparing your club's position in 2013 to ours. Your list needed turning over. We're already doing that and have done so since the end of 2015 (52 players out the door with only 15 of the 50 brought in having come and gone).

There will be improvement and that's a fact. How much remains to be seen, so stop pretending you know the answer here.

 

[TeeJay Blue]

Well mate if you think you haven't gone backward, then you know absolutely nothing about football.
1st of all, you had the worst start to any season in your history, that's going backwards.
Secondly, you had less wins and less %, than last year, that's going backward.

Now if you want to bring up, "but hey, look who we recruited, but, but we had injuries, but, but potential, it makes no difference, since your club was formed, you have recruited every year, you have had injuries.

Sorry to say mate, but if you don't get your head out of the sand soon, you'll run out of breath.

You may think you're 'in the know' about this, but the truth is your argument is nothing more than superficial.

Do you see anybody disagreeing with Carlton having gone backwards in that area? No!

What you fail to see was that the win/loss ratio was not on the top of the club's list of important things, and that there were other areas this year that saw the club taking steps forwards.

Getting games into the young kids. Others like Fisher, Curnow and McKay showed signs of improvement. The whole team was building some synergy.
Docherty stated that he improved on his leadership abilities on the sidelines. Cripps gained from his short time filling in for Murphy as captain.

And even with the many things that went wrong, the club addressed them after the season. There was a review of the medical department. Bolton went away for further study on coaching. Two new captains. A highly-respected fitness manager and more potential talent to get excited about.

You're arguing with the brick wall here. Fact remains that improvement is never linear and that there were some aspects in this abysmal season that the blues were happy with.

 

[Trav 20]

You're the one that's deluded here.

Was I calling Dow and Fisher 'quality'? No! You were implying that they're 'unproven', which is the biggest load of crap I've read here.

Second of all, it's great that you're not in such a business of actually grading talent because you're only punishing yourself with those high standards.

And just because a player has past his peak, that doesn't mean they're no longer good. I'm sure you and thousands of other supporters think Jones has still got some value left in him. So quit talking rubbish about another club's veterans.

All us blues supporters are frustrated with their team's results this year but we know where the problems lie, and believe that fixing them will see noticeable improvement. We're bad but not as bad as people make us out to be.

Stop comparing your club's position in 2013 to ours. Your list needed turning over. We're already doing that and have done so since the end of 2015 (52 players out the door with only 15 of the 50 brought in having come and gone).

There will be improvement and that's a fact. How much remains to be seen, so stop pretending you know the answer here.

Read on.

I've addressed your hissy fit.

 

[TeeJay Blue]

Read on.

I've addressed your hissy fit.

If you won't acknowledge the points and contribute properly to the discussion then jog on and waste your breath elsewhere.

You're only proving to people you know bugger all.

 

[Trav 20]

If you won't acknowledge the points and contribute properly to the discussion then jog on and waste your breath elsewhere.

You're only proving to people you know bugger all.

I think I'll take your excellent advice.

I posted in threads about s**t teams for years.

I don't need to anymore.

Cheers

 

[davis_756]

You said that you had been quoted when you hadn't. You must be a nightmare to live with.

Anyway, I'm going to bow out kid.

Again with your lies do you ever speak the truth? Quit while you are well and truly behind and remain in la la land with the fairy's.

 

[davis_756]

Well mate if you think you haven't gone backward, then you know absolutely nothing about football.
1st of all, you had the worst start to any season in your history, that's going backwards.
Secondly, you had less wins and less %, than last year, that's going backward.

Now if you want to bring up, "but hey, look who we recruited, but, but we had injuries, but, but potential, it makes no difference, since your club was formed, you have recruited every year, you have had injuries.

Sorry to say mate, but if you don't get your head out of the sand soon, you'll run out of breath.

You really are struggling to understand something so basic.

Improvement is not always linear, do you actually understand what that means or are you stuck analyzing basic statistics as though they hold the meaning to life itself?

I will try and explain it to you simply, no one older then Docherty will be apart of our next finals side, our wins in the last 3 years have been largely off the back of those players older then that cut off point and they have been gradually shown the door. If I was to use your logic, had we recruited some dfa and got ourselves up to 8 wins that would have been progress which is WRONG.

You need to understand that progress at this stage is improvement in those under 25 and while the decline of those older then that sees on field results suffer that is largely irrelevant as they will be cut from the list soon enough. While you continue to judge the progress of the team based on wins and losses rather then opening your eyes and seeing what is really going on I am wasting my time with you.

TLDR, you don't know jack s**t about Carlton and your skin deep analysis is just that.

 

[LoungeLizard]

You really are struggling to understand something so basic.

Improvement is not always linear, do you actually understand what that means or are you stuck analyzing basic statistics as though they hold the meaning to life itself?

I will try and explain it to you simply, no one older then Docherty will be apart of our next finals side, our wins in the last 3 years have been largely off the back of those players older then that cut off point and they have been gradually shown the door. If I was to use your logic, had we recruited some dfa and got ourselves up to 8 wins that would have been progress which is WRONG.

You need to understand that progress at this stage is improvement in those under 25 and while the decline of those older then that sees on field results suffer that is largely irrelevant as they will be cut from the list soon enough. While you continue to judge the progress of the team based on wins and losses rather then opening your eyes and seeing what is really going on I am wasting my time with you.

TLDR, you don't know jack s**t about Carlton and your skin deep analysis is just that.

What a funny post, you jumped into a convo i was having with someone else, and said i was wrong.

go back and have a look.

If you have drafted well, then yes you will move along nicely, but you have a long way to go yet, my comment about how you went backwards, was not incorrect, in fact you may well go further back still before you start to go forward.

Nothing is proven until it happens, so you saying that you have gone forward, is a load of croc until you actually show it.

So get your head out of the sand and open your own eyes, hoping is not proof.

 

[branedotorg]

Stop making us look so desperate for external validation.

We are in a historical low and looking like finally digging our way out BUT we aren't there yet.

 

[davis_756]

What a funny post, you jumped into a convo i was having with someone else, and said i was wrong.

go back and have a look.

If you have drafted well, then yes you will move along nicely, but you have a long way to go yet, my comment about how you went backwards, was not incorrect, in fact you may well go further back still before you start to go forward.

Nothing is proven until it happens, so you saying that you have gone forward, is a load of croc until you actually show it.

So get your head out of the sand and open your own eyes, hoping is not proof.

You have a list of players that so far have done nothing, you can claim how good they are going to be until the cows come home, but so far all they have done is take your club backwards.

There is so much potential for improvement across the board so enjoy us "going backwards" while you can.

Care to try again or you want to go ahead making bullshit up?

You basically have made an entire post here without addressing a single point I made fyi, I can only determine you concede I am correct and are purely resorting to deflection at this point. I will accept your resignation and leave you to your ramblings.