Recommitted Tim Kelly [requested a trade to West Coast]

[ghostbat12]

Good job tough guy. Sikk burn bro!!11!

A pick as high as 19 is fair value? Your talent evaluation skills are about as good as your insult skills.

Finally, please answer these questions
1. When WC offer pick 23 after 2019, and Geelong rightfully reject it as not even close to adequate compensation, then what happens next? I bet you are one of those dullards who believe that “he will just nominate again for the draft and we will pick him up for free. Yeah, cop that Geelong for being stubborn and acting in bad faith.” The only 2 established players to have ever done this are a washed up Luke Ball, and a desperate Nick Stevens who only succeeded in being drafted to Carlton where he did not want to play. Do you honestly think that Tim Kelly, the man who missed out in 5 drafts will keen to do that and risk getting drafted by Freo?
2. Who is acting in “bad faith”?:
- the club who finally drafted Tim Kelly after he was rejected in the draft 5 times, and then demanded adequate compensation when he threatened to leave after 1 season? Or
- the club who failed to draft him 6 times, then got in his ear about coming home after 1 season only to not get a deal done because they were caught out trying to take advantage of his personal situation by getting him on the cheap?

Look, if dangerfield is only worth pick 9, then it’s fair to say kelly is worth 19.

Rest is too congested to read. And boring.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

The links clear things up quite well. If the links aren't enough to satisfy you, nothing will. That just makes you beyond reason.

Oh I read the links. You have spun quite a tale from the information they contain.

'The Eagles tried to turn those picks into pick 13 but Adelaide grabbed that off Sydney as part of the Mitch McGovern deal, so they were left with a strong but not a knockout hand.'

This turns into Geelong refusing to accept a pick 13 from the Eagles?

Regardless, it falls some way short of a top 10 selection, no?

 

[bzparkes]

Didn't realise Kelly was worth the same as Dangerfield.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Didn't realise Kelly was worth the same as Dangerfield.

Go and read back through the thread if you really need this crap torn to shreds again.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Oh I read the links. You have spun quite a tale from the information they contain.

'The Eagles tried to turn those picks into pick 13 but Adelaide grabbed that off Sydney as part of the Mitch McGovern deal, so they were left with a strong but not a knockout hand.'

This turns into Geelong refusing to accept a pick 13 from the Eagles?

My recollection was that West Coast had made enquiries of Sydney about a trade for pick 13 but were told by Geelong it wouldn't be accepted. But maybe it was just Geelong fans, not Geelong the club, who were saying pretty much exactly this:

it falls some way short of a top 10 selection, no?

So we were stuck in a situation where we didn't have the currency Geelong were asking for, we attempted to get something close to it, even that wasn't going to get the deal done, so the deal wasn't done.

Which is fine. He was a contracted player, Geelong were entitled to ask for an exceptional deal for him and to retain him if they couldn't get an exceptional deal.

What shits me though is the statements from certain posters on your side of the fence to the effect that we "only offered a bucket of scraps" and we "clearly don't value Kelly because we wouldn't pay the asking price". Neither statement is even remotely true.

 

[ghostbat12]

Go and read back through the thread if you really need this crap torn to shreds again.

Yep went back. Not torn to shreds anywhere.

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

Yep went back. Not torn to shreds anywhere.

Haha! Now go read the previous thread.

 

[ghostbat12]

Haha! Now go read the previous thread.

Only thing I got out of it was that Geelong offer was less than Adelaide was going to offer anyway and therefore were sure to match. Dangerfield has no way of getting to Geelong apart from trade.

Geelong fans think they were just being nice.

Funniest shite ever.

 

[Hinkley29]

Look, if dangerfield is only worth pick 9, then it’s fair to say kelly is worth 19.

Rest is too congested to read. And boring.

Reading is hard for you. It’s ok, I am not going to make fun of the intellectually challenged.

Geelong gave up 9 and 28 for Dangerfield. Danger was also a restricted free agent. Kelly is not.

Try again.

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Am i too late to join the "bash the cats because they're evil" thread?

Seriously. He'll likely be traded end of year just fine and probably for less than we'd have got this year. I'd have probably taken 20 and 22 for him though reflecting post draft maybe Wells made the decision. Looking at the list he the guy they had their hopes on linking together the current and future midfield so losing him means having a bunch of kids get exposed very badly not long from now. Holding onto him one more year means that you can offer him the salary cap opened up by GAJ and Taylor retiring. It means he won't have 2 kids under 2 anymore. He clearly likes playing at the cats, they just need to make his wife happy. Even if it's just the remotest chance you convince him to stay, surely it's worth the probable drop in trade value.

Also, can we consider the following when throwing claims of hypocrisy around? If the player requesting a trade has been on the list less than 12 months and had promised to play for the club for 2 years then it's probably a bit different to a player one year off free agency. Just a thought.

 

[Nickoo]

Well what we have learned after the draft was those 2 speculative picks20 + 22 PLUS the Eagles 2019 2nd (which was the Eagles final offer)equated to.

Three 2018 2nd rounds, a 2019 upgrade from the 3rd round to the Swans 2nd PLUS the Eagles 2019 2nd.

So Kelly + the Cats 2019 3rd could have landed Geelong 2018 picks 28, 31 and 35. The Swans 2019 2nd PLUS the Eagles 2019 2nd say picks 32 and 36.

So in total picks 28 + 31 + 32 + 35 + 36.

So five second round picks. FIVE. Does that sound like unders or getting someone on the cheap? No it doesn't!

For a club that needs an injection of youth they seem to be picking it mostly at the arse end of the draft.

Except we don’t need an injection of youth; we need an injection of top end talent.


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[BigBirdz]

Look, if dangerfield is only worth pick 9, then it’s fair to say kelly is worth 19.

Rest is too congested to read. And boring.

That drivel isn't from me.. the quote ****ed up somehow but it's fixed now

 

[Obeanie1]

Except we don’t need an injection of youth; we need an injection of top end talent.


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So explain to us how you get that picking from pick 48 onwards instead of multiple picks in the 2nd round?

 

[CatToTheFuture]

Well what we have learned after the draft was those 2 speculative picks20 + 22 PLUS the Eagles 2019 2nd (which was the Eagles final offer)equated to.

Three 2018 2nd rounds, a 2019 upgrade from the 3rd round to the Swans 2nd PLUS the Eagles 2019 2nd.

So Kelly + the Cats 2019 3rd could have landed Geelong 2018 picks 28, 31 and 35. The Swans 2019 2nd PLUS the Eagles 2019 2nd say picks 32 and 36.

So in total picks 28 + 31 + 32 + 35 + 36.

So five second round picks. FIVE. Does that sound like unders or getting someone on the cheap? No it doesn't!

For a club that needs an injection of youth they seem to be picking it mostly at the arse end of the draft.

You're kinda lumping together a whole bunch of separate trades to fabricate the outcome you want there but i understand your point.

 

[ghostbat12]

Reading is hard for you. It’s ok, I am not going to make fun of the intellectually challenged.

Geelong gave up 9 and 28 for Dangerfield. Danger was also a restricted free agent. Kelly is not.

Try again.

Yeah, so, he was RESTRICTED. Therefore, he couldn’t just come to Geelong could he? Do you not understand the concept? Unless u were going to blow Adelaide out of water financially, he was never getting to your club without a trade. Therefore there is no difference between restricted free agent and a player out of contract unless offer from new club is too good to refuse. And that didn’t happen. So really, same situation.

Don’t give me pick 28. Picks in 20’s are rubbish remember.

 

[Obeanie1]

You're kinda lumping together a whole bunch of separate trades to fabricate the outcome you want there but i understand your point.

Firstly its not fabracation as it is what actually occurred.

Put simply its opportunity cost.

Geelong and Wells had an opportunity to seriously take full advantage of this draft and also next draft.

Instead they valued 12 months with Kelly as a Cat was a better outcome.

Only time will tell.

 

[Matera92]

Surprisingly this is one of the more intelligent Eagles fan posts

We choose the flavour however.

 

[Pulsedriver]

LOL. Rubbish. You are making stuff up now.

What you call "making stuff up" I find to be a logical conclusion.

How can you say Wells had no intention?

No one except Geelong fans thought Kelly was worth a top 10 pick. This demonstrates that Wells evaluation wasn't one borne of a reasonable evaluation, it was one borne of the intent to price competition out.

Wells said top 10 pick (being the value). WC did not provide top 10 pick. WC offer unders so no trade. This does not mean Wells had no intention to trade, it means WC failed to offer what was required.
To that end, WC failed to offer what was required hence the reason of there being no trade. No bad faith on Wells' behalf.

Given that Geelong had Kelly under contract, I have no issue with GFC enforcing that contract. The bad faith aspect comes in when Wells and WC negotiate for a couple of weeks, only for Wells to string WC a long as though there was a possibility of a trade. If Wells was so adamant that only a top 10 pick would get it done, he would've rebuffed WC from even speaking to him unless they come back with a top 10 pick. It's this stringing alone that suggests that Wells used this back and forth between he and WC to make it look as though a compromise may be possible. That's where Wells acted in bad faith.

"Wells refused to buy into whether Kelly was worth a first-round pick or two second-round picks, having been selected at No.24 in the 2017 NAB AFL Draft."
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-10-05/kelly-wants-out-cat-seeks-move-to-eagles

The top 10 price put on Kelly's head by Wells wasn't about Kelly's worth, it was about pricing out competition.

You mention 1 guy from the Age. Terry Wallace and Damian Barrett both said he was worth a top 10 pick and even said WC shouldve offered their R1 next year in addition to 20+22.

Wallace also said Geelong might eventually take a pick anywhere inside the first 14. So even he thought that was reasonable enough to state what Geelong might do. WC wanted to trade up to pick 13, which makes it a reasonable request.

It was widely accepted that a top 10 or 12 pick (according to Gary Lyon) was fair given he was contracted.

If Gary Lyon would take pick 12, he'd be unreasonable not to take pick 13, especially given it was what WC could produce.

Heck, even Montagna had his 2c saying: "Kelly doesn’t become a free agent next year, so the Cats would still have trade power at the end of 2019, should Kelly play a second season with them

Montagna doesn't know what he's talking about. Where Geelong's leverage/power coming from that he speaks of? WC can wait the Cats out. Cats acquiesce or get zilch.

“Tim has said he’s happy to stay if that’s the case, I think Geelong hold him to that,” Montagna said.
“Get another really good year out of a star player and then you trade for him at the end of next year.”

This statement from Montagna is neither here nor there. It certainly doesn't evidence that Geelong have the power in negotiations.

Point is to Geelong he was worth a top 10 pick because Geelong set the price, you failed to deliver.
Geelong were calling the shots, not WC.

I agree. Because Geelong had Kelly contracted, they were free to set the price. Wrt "calling the shots", it's WC's turn in 2019.

You cannot expect us to just hand over gun players for unders and your low ball offer was clearly unders, only that Age journalist and you (as well as all the other delusional WC fans) believe so.

WC were prepared to trade for and give pick 13 in 2018. If that's what you consider "unders", bring a change of underwear come next October when this reasonable offer is reduced due to Geelong's initial stubbornness and lack of veto power. But but but, Montagna sez da Pussies have powa...

You're making stuff up again. What a wild imagination you have. Nowhere there does it say Geelong refused 13. You were clearly too late to come to the party, only after an agreement was made between Crows blues and Syd. Perhaps WC were too slow to act. That is on WC, not Geelong.

Geelong refusing the pick is implied in "The Eagles tried to turn those picks into pick 13". WC can't try to trade with Sydney for a pick that they don't have anymore. WC didn't get pick 13 from Sydney due to Wells rejecting the offer. It's the only logical conclusion left.

If you don't offer something Geelong finds as sufficient he will stay or go into the draft. Most likely is you offer something sufficient.

Kelly doesn't simply stay at Geelong if WC don't acquiesce to Geelong's demands, as he's out of contract. Tim goes into the draft... and that's fine by me. WC simply wait Geelong out. If Geelong are stubborly going to stick with their demands, despite having no leverage, they'll need to convince Freo to use a top 10 pick on Kelly to keep him from going to WC.

we don't have to accept what you offered.

Not while he's contracted. Geelong now have a time constraint on how they carry out the Kelly trade in 2019, for if time expires, to the draft he'll go. WC don't have to meet you half way if Geelong's starting position is as unreasonable as it was this year. WC simply wait Geelong out.

Your self entitlement is insane.

Geelong are the ones that kept Kelly against his wishes.

WC didn't have the currency to get the deal done, which is why the trade didnt occur. It had nothing to do with anything else. You are trying to create a world where WC are not to blame. Astounding you cant see that.

This isn't about "blame". Astounding you cant see that. This is about how the situation changes come next go around. The Cats fans are in denial for now, but it'll pass and reality will kick in the closer we get to D-day.

I was in the 'don't trade for Kelly at such an unreasonable cost' camp. Wells ensured the price was set high enough to induce such a reaction from WC, too. I'm happy to wait another year for Kelly and get him at a better price.

WC don't have leverage to force a trade for unders. You must pay what Geelong demand for a trade to occur. He is not a FA. OR he goes to Freo. You think you can low ball us and expect us to just take it? Your stupidity is here for all to see.

WC have leverage in that Kelly only wants to go to WC, thus forcing Geelong to deal only with WC. WC have leverage in that Geelong must agree to a trade or Kelly goes into the draft. Geelong must soften and deal before the trade period expires or get nothing. WC, on the other hand, can wait and wait some more. WC also have leverage in that Tim's missus wants Tim to be with his family back in Perth. And the obvious one, Tim is out of contract.

WC offered unders to a contracted player, hence the reason he remains with Geelong. Wells was professional and consistent the whole way through.

Wells was consistent... consistent in stringing the negotiations along, despite having no intention of trading.

WC were not smart enough or unable to manufacture the trade.

WC were intelligent to not pay obvious overs and instead wait for better trading conditions.

In 2019 he is out of contract so he either goes to wc in a trade or draft if wc fail to offer something adequate.

You fail to look at who's likely to select Kelly in the draft, given all his baggage. Freo might, if they prove to be insane. Even they'd be reluctant to use a top 10 pick on someone who hates them and doesn't want near their club. The others clubs won't touch Kelly, as they know he's a massive flight risk and an expensive and extremely risky gamble that's most unlikely to pay off. That's why I hope Geelong play hardball and basically force Kelly into the draft. WC will still get their man, and Geelong will get nothing.

You can complain and whinge all you like but you still need to offer something good enough for Geelong to accept. We will see what happens but I expect you will be disappointed.

There's no need for WC or their supporters to complain, as WC can now force Geelong's hand by waiting them out. Geelong better pray Freo have a good season wins-wise, as that's Geelong's only chance for leverage. If Freo fail, they aren't using an early pick on Kelly in the draft.

 

[Nickoo]

So explain to us how you get that picking from pick 48 onwards instead of multiple picks in the 2nd round?

That’s relative to all those extra picks in the original post.


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[Lunchlady Doris]

Given that Geelong had Kelly under contract, I have no issue with GFC enforcing that contract. The bad faith aspect comes in when Wells and WC negotiate for a couple of weeks, only for Wells to string WC a long as though there was a possibility of a trade. If Wells was so adamant that only a top 10 pick would get it done, he would've rebuffed WC from even speaking to him unless they come back with a top 10 pick. It's this stringing alone that suggests that Wells used this back and forth between he and WC to make it look as though a compromise may be possible. That's where Wells acted in bad faith.

So your issue is that Wells didn't completely ignore the Eagles attempts at trade? You would have been fine with Wells not returning the Eagles phone calls unless they had a top 10 pick? That would have prevented pages and pages of weeping and moaning?

To be honest, it's going to be a struggle for me to read the rest of this essay with a straight face. What a ridiculous notion.

"Wells refused to buy into whether Kelly was worth a first-round pick or two second-round picks, having been selected at No.24 in the 2017 NAB AFL Draft."
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-10-05/kelly-wants-out-cat-seeks-move-to-eagles

The top 10 price put on Kelly's head by Wells wasn't about Kelly's worth, it was about pricing out competition.

Wells himself never even put a top 10 price on the trade. Those words have been put into his mouth by imaginative Eagles posters It says it right there in your quote - Wells wouldn't say.

Wallace also said Geelong might eventually take a pick anywhere inside the first 14. So even he thought that was reasonable enough to state what Geelong might do. WC wanted to trade up to pick 13, which makes it a reasonable request.

Again, you're stating your fever dreams as if they're fact. There is no evidence that Geelong refused pick 13 in trade for Kelly.

If Gary Lyon would take pick 12, he'd be unreasonable not to take pick 13, especially given it was what WC could produce.

WC were prepared to trade for and give pick 13 in 2018. If that's what you consider "unders", bring a change of underwear come next October when this reasonable offer is reduced due to Geelong's initial stubbornness and lack of veto power. But but but, Montagna sez da Pussies have powa...

Fantasy.

Geelong refusing the pick is implied in "The Eagles tried to turn those picks into pick 13". WC can't try to trade with Sydney for a pick that they don't have anymore. WC didn't get pick 13 from Sydney due to Wells rejecting the offer. It's the only logical conclusion left.

Bullshit.

Kelly doesn't simply stay at Geelong if WC don't acquiesce to Geelong's demands, as he's out of contract. Tim goes into the draft... and that's fine by me. WC simply wait Geelong out. If Geelong are stubborly going to stick with their demands, despite having no leverage, they'll need to convince Freo to use a top 10 pick on Kelly to keep him from going to WC.

Not while he's contracted. Geelong now have a time constraint on how they carry out the Kelly trade in 2019, for if time expires, to the draft he'll go. WC don't have to meet you half way if Geelong's starting position is as unreasonable as it was this year. WC simply wait Geelong out.

Geelong are the ones that kept Kelly against his wishes.

This isn't about "blame". Astounding you cant see that. This is about how the situation changes come next go around. The Cats fans are in denial for now, but it'll pass and reality will kick in the closer we get to D-day.

I was in the 'don't trade for Kelly at such an unreasonable cost' camp. Wells ensured the price was set high enough to induce such a reaction from WC, too. I'm happy to wait another year for Kelly and get him at a better price.

WC have leverage in that Kelly only wants to go to WC, thus forcing Geelong to deal only with WC. WC have leverage in that Geelong must agree to a trade or Kelly goes into the draft. Geelong must soften and deal before the trade period expires or get nothing. WC, on the other hand, can wait and wait some more. WC also have leverage in that Tim's missus wants Tim to be with his family back in Perth. And the obvious one, Tim is out of contract.

Boring posturing.

Wells was consistent... consistent in stringing the negotiations along, despite having no intention of trading.

WC were intelligent to not pay obvious overs and instead wait for better trading conditions.

Not about blame huh? Yawn.

You fail to look at who's likely to select Kelly in the draft, given all his baggage. Freo might, if they prove to be insane. Even they'd be reluctant to use a top 10 pick on someone who hates them and doesn't want near their club. The others clubs won't touch Kelly, as they know he's a massive flight risk and an expensive and extremely risky gamble that's most unlikely to pay off. That's why I hope Geelong play hardball and basically force Kelly into the draft. WC will still get their man, and Geelong will get nothing.

So bitter. You'd prefer poor Tim and family to go through that stress and uncertainty? What a hard case you are. Tough guy.

There's no need for WC or their supporters to complain, as WC can now force Geelong's hand by waiting them out. Geelong better pray Freo have a good season wins-wise, as that's Geelong's only chance for leverage. If Freo fail, they aren't using an early pick on Kelly in the draft.

Please stop complaining then.

 

[Obeanie1]

That’s relative to all those extra picks in the original post.


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You avoided the question.

If you are saying the Cats need top end talent isnt it better to be drafting multiple picks in the 2nd round rather than from picking multiple players from 48 onwards?

It isnt a hard question.

 

[Pulsedriver]

So your issue is that Wells didn't completely ignore the Eagles attempts at trade? You would have been fine with Wells not returning the Eagles phone calls unless they had a top 10 pick? That would have prevented pages and pages of weeping and moaning?

I'd have to be involved somehow at WC to have an issue with what Wells did. I'm just commenting on how it looks from my perspective. Wells acted in bad faith.

Wells himself never even put a top 10 price on the trade. Those words have been put into his mouth by imaginative Eagles posters It says it right there in your quote - Wells wouldn't say.

Wells said the positions (of Geelong and WC) were too far apart. Given WC were willing to trade for pick 13, it stands to reason that too far apart means Wells wanted a top 10 pick. Wells did state: “He’s worth a top 10 pick I would have thought and perhaps more."
https://www.perthnow.com.au/sport/a...ant-a-top-10-pick-for-tim-kelly-ng-b88984549z

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

I'd have to be involved somehow at WC to have an issue with what Wells did. I'm just commenting on how it looks from my perspective. Wells acted in bad faith.

You're getting upset at your imagined sequence of events. It's worse than old man yelling at cloud.

Wells said the positions (of Geelong and WC) were too far apart. Given WC were willing to trade for pick 13, it stands to reason that too far apart means Wells wanted a top 10 pick. Wells did state: “He’s worth a top 10 pick I would have thought and perhaps more."
https://www.perthnow.com.au/sport/a...ant-a-top-10-pick-for-tim-kelly-ng-b88984549z

WC being willing to trade for 13 is great, but you have no idea why that didn't occur. Wells didn't waver from his stance once - how is that acting in bad faith?

 

[Lunchlady Doris]

You avoided the question.

If you are saying the Cats need top end talent isnt it better to be drafting multiple picks in the 2nd round rather than from picking multiple players from 48 onwards?

It isnt a hard question.

It's better to be keeping the top end talent you have, rather than replacing it with multiple chances at potential talent.

 

[Pulsedriver]

You're getting upset at your imagined sequence of events. It's worse than old man yelling at cloud.

...says the guy getting upset that someone sees things differently to himself.

WC being willing to trade for 13 is great, but you have no idea why that didn't occur.

It doesn't take a genius to understand why WC didn't trade for pick 13... it's because Wells rejected pick 13. Sydney ended up getting less from Adelaide than what WC were willing to trade up for.

Wells didn't waver from his stance once - how is that acting in bad faith?

I not only reject the framing of your question, but I've answered why I think Wells acted in bad faith numerous times in this thread already.