Recommitted Tim Kelly [requested a trade to West Coast]

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Nickoo

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You avoided the question.

If you are saying the Cats need top end talent isnt it better to be drafting multiple picks in the 2nd round rather than from picking multiple players from 48 onwards?

It isnt a hard question.

No because it doesn’t help us recruiting more of the same level of talent when we need high end. Hence why we aren’t going to trade our top end for middle of the road. Your argument is volume over quality which is exactly what we don’t need.


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Apr 3, 2006
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...says the guy getting upset that someone sees things differently to himself.

Yeah, so tilted right now.

It does't take a genius to understand why WC didn't trade for pick 13... it's because Wells rejected pick 13. Sydney end up getting less from Adelaide than what WC were willing to trade up for.

Does it take a genius to see that there's many other potential points of failure in an eventual 3 club trade involving picks and players?

I not only reject the framing of your question, but I've answered why I think Wells acted in bad faith numerous times in this thread already.

Yeah, because he didn't immediately rebuff any and all attempts at a trade :$

The bad faith aspect comes in when Wells and WC negotiate for a couple of weeks, only for Wells to string WC a long as though there was a possibility of a trade. If Wells was so adamant that only a top 10 pick would get it done, he would've rebuffed WC from even speaking to him unless they come back with a top 10 pick. It's this stringing alone that suggests that Wells used this back and forth between he and WC to make it look as though a compromise may be possible. That's where Wells acted in bad faith.

In your narrative, Wells was somehow stringing the Eagles along, despite being clear about the top 10 pick requirement all along?!?

He did apparently eventually relent, and was supposedly willing to compromise on a package of lesser picks involving a future first round, but again the Eagles wouldn't come to the table.

Your reasoning seems to hinge on you knowing for a fact that Wells never intended to trade Kelly, no matter what. Keep grinding that axe, I guess.
 

Pulsedriver

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Does it take a genius to see that there's many other potential points of failure in an eventual 3 club trade involving picks and players?

How about you answer your own question and reason upon it and thus make a counterpoint to my position.

In your narrative, Wells was somehow stringing the Eagles along, despite being clear about the top 10 pick requirement all along?!?

You previously stated: "Wells himself never even put a top 10 price on the trade. Those words have been put into his mouth by imaginative Eagles posters", yet here you are contradicting your own previous post by stating: "despite [Wells] being clear about the top 10 pick requirement all along?" You're rambling so much now that you can't even keep your own s**t straight. You're all over the shop.

He did apparently eventually relent, and was supposedly willing to compromise on a package of lesser picks involving a future first round, but again the Eagles wouldn't come to the table.

So, Wells supposedly compromised by upping the price for Kelly. 20, 22 & future 1st rounder is worth more than a top 10 pick alone. How very reasonable of Wells.

This was Wells, again, setting the price so high that no one in their right mind would accept it, but it gave him an excuse to tell Tim: 'I did try to trade you'.

Your reasoning seems to hinge on you knowing for a fact that Wells never intended to trade Kelly, no matter what. Keep grinding that axe, I guess.

I'm basing my opinion that Wells never intended to trade on logical conclusions.
 
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Nickoo

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What you call "making stuff up" I find to be a logical conclusion.



No one except Geelong fans thought Kelly was worth a top 10 pick. This demonstrates that Wells evaluation wasn't one borne of a reasonable evaluation, it was one borne of the intent to price competition out.



Given that Geelong had Kelly under contract, I have no issue with GFC enforcing that contract. The bad faith aspect comes in when Wells and WC negotiate for a couple of weeks, only for Wells to string WC a long as though there was a possibility of a trade. If Wells was so adamant that only a top 10 pick would get it done, he would've rebuffed WC from even speaking to him unless they come back with a top 10 pick. It's this stringing alone that suggests that Wells used this back and forth between he and WC to make it look as though a compromise may be possible. That's where Wells acted in bad faith.

"Wells refused to buy into whether Kelly was worth a first-round pick or two second-round picks, having been selected at No.24 in the 2017 NAB AFL Draft."
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-10-05/kelly-wants-out-cat-seeks-move-to-eagles

The top 10 price put on Kelly's head by Wells wasn't about Kelly's worth, it was about pricing out competition.



Wallace also said Geelong might eventually take a pick anywhere inside the first 14. So even he thought that was reasonable enough to state what Geelong might do. WC wanted to trade up to pick 13, which makes it a reasonable request.



If Gary Lyon would take pick 12, he'd be unreasonable not to take pick 13, especially given it was what WC could produce.



Montagna doesn't know what he's talking about. Where Geelong's leverage/power coming from that he speaks of? WC can wait the Cats out. Cats acquiesce or get zilch.



This statement from Montagna is neither here nor there. It certainly doesn't evidence that Geelong have the power in negotiations.



I agree. Because Geelong had Kelly contracted, they were free to set the price. Wrt "calling the shots", it's WC's turn in 2019.



WC were prepared to trade for and give pick 13 in 2018. If that's what you consider "unders", bring a change of underwear come next October when this reasonable offer is reduced due to Geelong's initial stubbornness and lack of veto power. But but but, Montagna sez da Pussies have powa...



Geelong refusing the pick is implied in "The Eagles tried to turn those picks into pick 13". WC can't try to trade with Sydney for a pick that they don't have anymore. WC didn't get pick 13 from Sydney due to Wells rejecting the offer. It's the only logical conclusion left.



Kelly doesn't simply stay at Geelong if WC don't acquiesce to Geelong's demands, as he's out of contract. Tim goes into the draft... and that's fine by me. WC simply wait Geelong out. If Geelong are stubborly going to stick with their demands, despite having no leverage, they'll need to convince Freo to use a top 10 pick on Kelly to keep him from going to WC.



Not while he's contracted. Geelong now have a time constraint on how they carry out the Kelly trade in 2019, for if time expires, to the draft he'll go. WC don't have to meet you half way if Geelong's starting position is as unreasonable as it was this year. WC simply wait Geelong out.



Geelong are the ones that kept Kelly against his wishes.



This isn't about "blame". Astounding you cant see that. This is about how the situation changes come next go around. The Cats fans are in denial for now, but it'll pass and reality will kick in the closer we get to D-day.

I was in the 'don't trade for Kelly at such an unreasonable cost' camp. Wells ensured the price was set high enough to induce such a reaction from WC, too. I'm happy to wait another year for Kelly and get him at a better price.



WC have leverage in that Kelly only wants to go to WC, thus forcing Geelong to deal only with WC. WC have leverage in that Geelong must agree to a trade or Kelly goes into the draft. Geelong must soften and deal before the trade period expires or get nothing. WC, on the other hand, can wait and wait some more. WC also have leverage in that Tim's missus wants Tim to be with his family back in Perth. And the obvious one, Tim is out of contract.



Wells was consistent... consistent in stringing the negotiations along, despite having no intention of trading.



WC were intelligent to not pay obvious overs and instead wait for better trading conditions.



You fail to look at who's likely to select Kelly in the draft, given all his baggage. Freo might, if they prove to be insane. Even they'd be reluctant to use a top 10 pick on someone who hates them and doesn't want near their club. The others clubs won't touch Kelly, as they know he's a massive flight risk and an expensive and extremely risky gamble that's most unlikely to pay off. That's why I hope Geelong play hardball and basically force Kelly into the draft. WC will still get their man, and Geelong will get nothing.



There's no need for WC or their supporters to complain, as WC can now force Geelong's hand by waiting them out. Geelong better pray Freo have a good season wins-wise, as that's Geelong's only chance for leverage. If Freo fail, they aren't using an early pick on Kelly in the draft.

Give it a rest I reckon.

West Coast did the stringing along, acted in bad faith for years with Tim and then after telling him they would pay him top end contract rates, and get a deal done made absolutely NO effort to get that deal done. Geel even backed down on the stated price and West Coast still wouldn’t cough up; future first round pick instead, offering a second round.

The rumour is that TK is pretty upset with the weagles after all the promises. I’d say they always thought they had him in their back pocket.


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Pulsedriver

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West Coast did the stringing along, acted in bad faith for years with Tim

Your comment assumes WC were under obligation to select Kelly in the ND during those years he went undrafted, but didn't fulfill that obligation. That's absurd.

then after telling him they would pay him top end contract rates

Please cite.

and get a deal done made absolutely NO effort to get that deal done.

How convenient that you leave out the part where Geelong had power of veto to reject trade offers. Your opinion here defies reality.

Geel even backed down on the stated price and West Coast still wouldn’t cough up; future first round pick instead, offering a second round.

Geelong 'compromised' by upping the price for Tim. Picks 20, 22 & a future 1st rounder is worth more than a stand alone top 10 pick. Wells didn't compromise, he made the trade harder to do as WC upped the ante late. Wells ensured the trade was never a realistic chance. Wells' actions evidence he never had any intention of trading Kelly. He just wanted to be able to tell Tim he tried. That's Wells acting in bad faith.

The rumour is that TK is pretty upset with the weagles after all the promises. I’d say they always thought they had him in their back pocket.

Rumour? Pfft!
 
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It's better to be keeping the top end talent you have, rather than replacing it with multiple chances at potential talent.

Fair enough.

End of the day no one will know who did well or who stuffed up royally until 2-3 years from now.

A lot will depend if Kelly gets traded next year and what for.

Then we need to wait to see how every player involved directly or indirectly pans out.

That an how the Cats list as a group progresses / stays similar or regresses.
 
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Give it a rest I reckon.

West Coast did the stringing along, acted in bad faith for years with Tim and then after telling him they would pay him top end contract rates, and get a deal done made absolutely NO effort to get that deal done. Geel even backed down on the stated price and West Coast still wouldn’t cough up; future first round pick instead, offering a second round.

The rumour is that TK is pretty upset with the weagles after all the promises. I’d say they always thought they had him in their back pocket.


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Lmfao
 
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Tim's set to go to another level in 2019. If it eventuates, Wells will have to bump the asking price up to a top-5 pick you'd expect. The man's an absolute genius, turning pick 24 into such a sought after commodity in such a short space of time.
Dangerfield said the Cats would continue to encourage second-year midfielder Tim Kelly to further heights in 2019 after his trade request to West Coast was denied in October.

"He's a pro, Tim. He understood the situation and I think he's handled himself really well," Dangerfield said.

"We had our (medical) screening day yesterday and everyone was glad to see him again.

"We expect him, and he expects himself, to go to another level again and we have to make sure we can provide the environment to do that."
 

Pulsedriver

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Tim's set to go to another level in 2019. If it eventuates, Wells will have to bump the asking price up to a top-5 pick you'd expect.

Please do it, Wells. Aim high and go for that sponsorship from Nike, just do it, Wellsy ol' chap. Go hard, send Tim to the draft. Just do it!
 
Tim's set to go to another level in 2019. If it eventuates, Wells will have to bump the asking price up to a top-5 pick you'd expect. The man's an absolute genius, turning pick 24 into such a sought after commodity in such a short space of time.

Big if there. He could go either way in 2019.

"Second year blues" is not a common saying for nothing.
 

Nickoo

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Tim's set to go to another level in 2019. If it eventuates, Wells will have to bump the asking price up to a top-5 pick you'd expect. The man's an absolute genius, turning pick 24 into such a sought after commodity in such a short space of time.

Too true. Can you believe it right there for five years and Wellsy spots what others are blind to.


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Nickoo

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You mean we wanted geelong’s second rounder? Who said no, so we offered our second rounder instead.

You really thing that future first was never raised in discussions. Really? Think about it.

And you really think wce would never have tested water with all of the picks? Really?

I mean, REALLY?

Try and keep up.


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Nickoo

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Forced to cough up?

How?

They just proved the value of 2nd rounders so realistically that's the max they will offer next season.

West Coast list is looking really solid and they will be 10 times more keen on Coniglio than Kelly and may well need to trade for him.

Could see the Eagles offer their 2019 1st + 2020 1st for Cogs and their remaining two 2019 2nds for Kelly.

Are you saying they’ll pass again next year? Gosh. Depends on the money they offer him.


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Cats added Clarke who is a talent to watch.

Then didnt use a pick until 48 after all the highly rated kids were gone.

Nothing bewteen 15 and 48 when you have serious list problems and a huge turnover of players.:cool:

So much for those 2nd rounders being useless to Geelong.

Cats didnt get involved in any pick trading or upgrades. Didnt have the currency or maybe clubs couldnt be bothered dealing with a difficult club to trade with.

So those two picks plus the Eagles 2019 2nd werent rated.

Yet the two 2018 2nd rounders turned into three 2018 2nd rounders plus another 2nd rounder upgrade in 2019.

Quality players available to Geelong with the original picks. McClennan, Ian Hill, Valente, Hammil, Williams, Foley, Sparrow, O'Neil, Joyce, Bytel and Taylor.

Cats missed a massive opportunity to replenish their aging list with three second rounders and upgrade their 2019 picks. Cats could have three 2019 2nd rounders right now pkus three young guns to develop. But Wells needed to stand firm and make a point to save face. He did. Just not the point he hoped for.

Eagles proved just how valuable two picks can be plus they still have that 2019 2nd to add another kid.:)

Cats missed a fantastic chance here. At least now they understand the value of two 2nd rounders.

Go Catters:D

None of anyone's picks have done anything to be labelled as young guns.

Eagles have proven nothing until we see what their recruits can do in the seniors.
 
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Are you saying they’ll pass again next year? Gosh. Depends on the money they offer him.

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If what Kelly expects in $$ is fair and reasonable and Geelong accept what is fair and reasonable (as opposed to exceptional compensation) then Kelly will likely become an Eagle.

If Geelong hold out for 'exceptional overs' then we will have to see where that leads us. The Eagles are under no obligation to pay massive overs nor should they.

As for passing again you seem be getting a tad caught up in this for some reason. Up until last year every team passed on Kelly over several drafts because he hadn't shown enough to be drafted. Somewhat due to injuries and also application. So only you know what you are meaning in dwelling on this.

Geelong jumped a pick earlier than the Eagles in 2017 after the Eagles selecting two higher ranked KP players who slid quite a bit. So what? That's astute drafting.
 
Apr 3, 2006
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How about you answer your own question and reason upon it and thus make a counterpoint to my position.

Not going to waste time speculating

You previously stated: "Wells himself never even put a top 10 price on the trade. Those words have been put into his mouth by imaginative Eagles posters", yet here you are contradicting your own previous post by stating: "despite [Wells] being clear about the top 10 pick requirement all along?" You're rambling so much now that you can't even keep your own s**t straight. You're all over the shop.

Notice how I said 'In your narrative'? I'm humouring you - playing along with your story.

It's a pretty common device, I'm surprised you are struggling to follow. Is this how you're going to avoid explaining your contradiction?

So, Wells supposedly compromised by upping the price for Kelly. 20, 22 & future 1st rounder is worth more than a top 10 pick alone. How very reasonable of Wells.

Debatable.

This was Wells, again, setting the price so high that no one in their right mind would accept it, but it gave him an excuse to tell Tim: 'I did try to trade you'.

I'm basing my opinion that Wells never intended to trade on logical conclusions.

Nah.
 
Apr 3, 2006
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Fair enough.

End of the day no one will know who did well or who stuffed up royally until 2-3 years from now.

A lot will depend if Kelly gets traded next year and what for.

Then we need to wait to see how every player involved directly or indirectly pans out.

That an how the Cats list as a group progresses / stays similar or regresses.

Maybe no one stuffed up royally, and everyone can just get on with their lives?
 
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Geelong 'compromised' by upping the price for Tim. Picks 20, 22 & a future 1st rounder is worth more than a stand alone top 10 pick. Wells didn't compromise, he made the trade harder to do as WC upped the ante late. Wells ensured the trade was never a realistic chance. Wells' actions evidence he never had any intention of trading Kelly. He just wanted to be able to tell Tim he tried. That's Wells acting in bad faith.

Wells asked from outset for a pick in the top 10. When WC were unable to achieve that then he said that he would accept your 20 and 22 plus the 2019 first rounder in order for Kelly to get back to WA. How in any way is that acting in bad faith? WC had weeks to get organise a top 10 pick and either couldn't achieve it or were not prepared to give up what they needed to do it. Do you honestly think that we should have just rolled over and succumbed to WC offer?
 
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