Which team is closer to playing in finals - Carlton, Gold Coast or St Kilda?

[Coaster2012]

St Kilda will play finals in 2019. You heard it here first.

 

[Juddernaut08]

St Kilda will play finals in 2019. You heard it here first.

Source?

 

[Gethelred]

Statistically, yes we did.

However, at the rate we were going backwards, it would have taken us another 25 years to fall to the depths that was the 2018 Carlton Football Club.

Largely because your base over that period - the 2010 premiership side, assembled by Malthouse - was much, much higher than ours was, in 2015. We had Cripps, Docherty, and the best hits of the previous regime. Now, we have more or less completely interchanged the rest of the list.

It's hard to argue progress from a win/loss perspective, which is why an insistence on using win/loss is meeting such resistance from Carlton fans. By the same token, though, why we had to do what we did is fairly well documented in the 'all things Carlton' megathread, and our progress along the road we set for ourselves is rather well on track. I'd also note that we haven't defined ourselves by win/loss ratio yet either, so by moving the goalposts into that area when it's not the metric by which we're measuring our progress is akin to asking your opposition how they're going in cricketing terms when they're playing baseball.

 

[Coaster2012]

Source?

Dan Hannebery said so.

 

[Gethelred]

I guess I'm fortunate that I support a team that always measures itself on wins and losses, with football being an industry where that is the defining measure of success.

Using the logic that Carlton didn't go backwards this year despite a 2 win, 59% season because they were able to get plenty of games into their talented youth in order to fast-track their development, can we now conclude that the Judd trade didn't take Carlton forward because all that did was enable them to stagnate between 6th and 12th for a few seasons without ever challenging for a premiership?

... because, again, by this logic Bucks wasted his time disassembling a list that had just won a flag, the first in nearly 30 years, when at the time it was the youngest team to win a flag.

Sometimes, you do what you have to do to ensure your club's future. Again, given that most of this particular argument has been played out in the "All things Carlton" megathread, I'll not go into it here. The key thing is that we haven't been measuring our success by this metric, yet.

When we do, should we fail, feel free to take shot after shot.

 

[davis_756]

And you got all that from the post, you mate are an absolute genius.

But i'll give you some advice, google Carlton coach, player stats, that will tell you who your coach and players are.

It will also show you how bad all those players are that you need others to tell you who they are.

I don't think you understand, we are here to test your knowledge of the Carlton football club and so far questions about the players and the coaches names have left you dumbfounded looking for google to give you answers.

How can you expect anyone to believe your opinion on something you have proven to have zero knowledge of?

 

[Juddernaut08]

I don't think you understand, we are here to test your knowledge of the Carlton football club and so far questions about the players and the coaches names have left you dumbfounded looking for google to give you answers.

How can you expect anyone to believe your opinion on something you have proven to have zero knowledge of?

This Lizard character by his own admission looks only at the win/loss record and doesn't watch Carlton games.

He then gets offended when we accuse him of having no depth in his analysis.

Classic hater/troll behaviour. Just ignore him.

 

[TeeJay Blue]

This sentence is the perfect summation of the contribution of Carlton supporters to this thread.

And your dispute of a fact and pigeonholing of people is the perfect summation of you to this thread.

Adds to your obsession with Carlton and your urge to destroy any blues supporter's hope by scraping down the barrel to find any negative you can.

The only thing it's showing is your prejudice.

 

[TeeJay Blue]

Usually when someone gets upset with the facts, they come back with posts like this.

Keep hoping mate, that's all you have at the moment.

Oh right. Only facts can come from you! Got it!

I put one forward and I get blasted for it.

We've acknowledged the win/loss ratio argument. You're just not bothering to see past it with your half-glass empty attitude.

 

[LoungeLizard]

Oh right. Only facts can come from you! Got it!

I put one forward and I get blasted for it.

We've acknowledged the win/loss ratio argument. You're just not bothering to see past it with your half-glass empty attitude.

How many times do you need to be told, hope is not a fact, go look up fact.

Going form 6 wins to 2 with less %, is going backwards, FACT.

Now go back to where you come into the convo, you said i was wrong, FACT.

You were wrong, FACT.

 

[TeeJay Blue]

How many times do you need to be told, hope is not a fact, go look up fact.

Going form 6 wins to 2 with less %, is going backwards, FACT

Go look up 'profundity', because your arguments have none of that right now. Talk about thick-headed.

And we don't hope. We know. Any person with a brain would know that there will better days ahead for the club.

 

[Trav 20]

Usually when someone gets upset with the facts, they come back with posts like this.

Keep hoping mate, that's all you have at the moment.

I love it when snowflakes don't directly quote you and complain about others from their safe space.

Apologies if you too are a Leftist snowflake.

 

[TeeJay Blue]

Of course there will be better days genius.

But that still doesn't change the FACT, you went backward.

How *****N thick are you?

No where near as thick as you who can't seem to acknowledge that there is more to our rebuild than wins and losses.

I'm not going to bother wasting my time reasoning with you again because you can't seem to process it.

All I can say is do some reading. Hope you learn some things.

 

[TeeJay Blue]

And you are just a coward mate, you won't even acknowledge you *****D up, you said i was wrong, when in fact, i stated a fact.

Where the **** did I write that? Do point it out. Or can't you process this as well?

Get it through your noggin. 'WE KNOW WE WENT BACKWARDS!'

But unlike you, we are finding the few small positives and taking them forward with us. Or aren't we allowed to? Do we have to be lifeless, insentient and think as shallow as you?

 

[Ian Dunross]

Saints for me are hard to pin. They could be awful and Richo gets the boot half way in. They could revert and beat some top teams and push for finals.

They could be somewhere in between. No faith in Richo. But at least lots of change around him. Most significantly Allen, Lethlean and Ratten are big improvements on what went before.

I'll take a stab and say 12th. 10 wins. 12 losses. McCartin traded at year's end.

To answer the thread title, NFI.

 

[BlueRenaissance]

As most on here, completely biased.

GC will always struggle to retain players and need huge player retention luck. St Kilda lacking 1-2 gamebreakers.

Carlton coming from a long way back but look like they have some real quality on their list. Just need the 1-2 seasons of maturing.

Feel this is close to the mark. If you add in Brisbane then it is more clouded as they have held on to key young players and have gamebreakers, and are ahead of Carlton maturity wise.

Other middle of the road clubs like North/Freo 'seem' ahead but their scattergun list mgmt approach will see them derail and play it safe around midtable before the odd fall here and there.

 

[Juddernaut08]

Lol, yeah right, before you jumped in i was saying that the CFC had a long way to go yet before reaching the finals, they went backwards this year and need to start moving forward before thinking finals, no-one can say yet how good these young players are, they might stay down the bottom for a couple more years yet.
And before you jump back in with but, but, but, yes they may also take off at a rate of knots, but at the moment, they haven't showed they are going to.

Now all you have given us is "we have potential" well mate that's called hope, and good for you that you have hope.

Feel like Freo could surprise. Still have Fyfe, Hill and Hogan to carry the team. Have Cerra and Brayshaw as young guns. Have good players in the backline:

 

[TooBlue14]

Feel like Freo could surprise. Still have Fyfe, Hill and Hogan to carry the team. Have Cerra and Brayshaw as young guns. Have good players in the backline:

Losing Neale will have an impact in the centre and on the scoreboard lately as he’s bedn contributing regularly there. BUT adding Hogan could do wonders for their forward line with McCarthy. It might take some time for them to gel. They could be in for a year similar to Carlton 2018 as some of their young mids should get more time on ball although they get the huge homeground advantage for a few more wins than just 2.

 

[Trav 20]

I also think their theme song is quite good, but that is all they have going for them.

You'd think they'd be a bit humble considering they have two A-graders and a bunch of kids with potential.

It's still very much wait and see with a best case scenario they've chosen well and will develop well.

They're still a number of years from finals if everything goes right.

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

Go Co to play finals first. Good coach and some smart young players.

 

[blitzer]

Saints for me are hard to pin. They could be awful and Richo gets the boot half way in. They could revert and beat some top teams and push for finals.

They could be somewhere in between. No faith in Richo. But at least lots of change around him. Most significantly Allen, Lethlean and Ratten are big improvements on what went before.

I'll take a stab and say 12th. 10 wins. 12 losses. McCartin traded at year's end.

To answer the thread title, NFI.

St.Kilda are a hard team to evaluate because last year they performed far below expectations and now its a bit unclear whether the rebuild has failed, whether it was a temporary setback, a victim of bad coaching or somewhere between. The list itself is far more mature than Gold Coast and Carlton. If all their players were playing great footy they would be playing finals in 2019, based on demographics.

I am not inspired by Richo. I watched a lot of AFL 360 throughout the year and frankly I thought Chris Scott was far more eloquent and insightful than him on a regular basis. Richo made his career based on developing young players but I'm not sure he's the full package in terms of being a great motivator or tactician. I do like Ratten as an assistant and I wouldn't be shocked if one day got another gig as a head coach.

One thing I will say about St.Kilda is that their playstyle has no identity. Listening to Richo he continually talked about a gamestyle built around pressure but he regularly conceded that what he was calling for and what was occurring on the field was two different things. I believe there are a number of different styles that are in vogue at the moment and although they are oversimplifications at least you can describe the style somewhat:
High pressure: Richmond, Collingwood
Half back intercept: West Coast
Kick to kick: Hawthorn
Handball happy: Bulldogs, Richmond
Moves the ball fast in attack: Essendon, Adelaide
etc etc

A true test for St.Kilda in 2019 will be playing consistent footy and establishing a real identity on the field, whatever that may be.

 

[Juddernaut08]

St.Kilda are a hard team to evaluate because last year they performed far below expectations and now its a bit unclear whether the rebuild has failed, whether it was a temporary setback, a victim of bad coaching or somewhere between. The list itself is far more mature than Gold Coast and Carlton. If all their players were playing great footy they would be playing finals in 2019, based on demographics.

I am not inspired by Richo. I watched a lot of AFL 360 throughout the year and frankly I thought Chris Scott was far more eloquent and insightful than him on a regular basis. Richo made his career based on developing young players but I'm not sure he's the full package in terms of being a great motivator or tactician. I do like Ratten as an assistant and I wouldn't be shocked if one day got another gig as a head coach.

One thing I will say about St.Kilda is that their playstyle has no identity. Listening to Richo he continually talked about a gamestyle built around pressure but he regularly conceded that what he was calling for and what was occurring on the field was two different things. I believe there are a number of different styles that are in vogue at the moment and although they are oversimplifications at least you can describe the style somewhat:
High pressure: Richmond, Collingwood
Half back intercept: West Coast
Kick to kick: Hawthorn
Handball happy: Bulldogs, Richmond
Moves the ball fast in attack: Essendon, Adelaide
etc etc

A true test for St.Kilda in 2019 will be playing consistent footy and establishing a real identity on the field, whatever that may be.

Agree that Ratten should get another go around. Many blues fans weren't happy how he was treated.

 

[Trav 20]

St.Kilda are a hard team to evaluate because last year they performed far below expectations and now its a bit unclear whether the rebuild has failed, whether it was a temporary setback, a victim of bad coaching or somewhere between. The list itself is far more mature than Gold Coast and Carlton. If all their players were playing great footy they would be playing finals in 2019, based on demographics.

Saints rank 12 for average age (Hawthorn oldest at one) and 14 for average games played/experience.

Admittedly Carlton and Gold Coast rank bottom 3 in both of those, but perhaps the Saints are less experienced/mature than you think.

 

[Ian Dunross]

St.Kilda are a hard team to evaluate because last year they performed far below expectations and now its a bit unclear whether the rebuild has failed, whether it was a temporary setback, a victim of bad coaching or somewhere between. The list itself is far more mature than Gold Coast and Carlton. If all their players were playing great footy they would be playing finals in 2019, based on demographics.

I am not inspired by Richo. I watched a lot of AFL 360 throughout the year and frankly I thought Chris Scott was far more eloquent and insightful than him on a regular basis. Richo made his career based on developing young players but I'm not sure he's the full package in terms of being a great motivator or tactician. I do like Ratten as an assistant and I wouldn't be shocked if one day got another gig as a head coach.

One thing I will say about St.Kilda is that their playstyle has no identity. Listening to Richo he continually talked about a gamestyle built around pressure but he regularly conceded that what he was calling for and what was occurring on the field was two different things. I believe there are a number of different styles that are in vogue at the moment and although they are oversimplifications at least you can describe the style somewhat:
High pressure: Richmond, Collingwood
Half back intercept: West Coast
Kick to kick: Hawthorn
Handball happy: Bulldogs, Richmond
Moves the ball fast in attack: Essendon, Adelaide
etc etc

A true test for St.Kilda in 2019 will be playing consistent footy and establishing a real identity on the field, whatever that may be.

Nailed it

 

[Isaac Cumming No 1]

St.Kilda are a hard team to evaluate because last year they performed far below expectations and now its a bit unclear whether the rebuild has failed, whether it was a temporary setback, a victim of bad coaching or somewhere between. The list itself is far more mature than Gold Coast and Carlton. If all their players were playing great footy they would be playing finals in 2019, based on demographics.

I am not inspired by Richo. I watched a lot of AFL 360 throughout the year and frankly I thought Chris Scott was far more eloquent and insightful than him on a regular basis. Richo made his career based on developing young players but I'm not sure he's the full package in terms of being a great motivator or tactician. I do like Ratten as an assistant and I wouldn't be shocked if one day got another gig as a head coach.

One thing I will say about St.Kilda is that their playstyle has no identity. Listening to Richo he continually talked about a gamestyle built around pressure but he regularly conceded that what he was calling for and what was occurring on the field was two different things. I believe there are a number of different styles that are in vogue at the moment and although they are oversimplifications at least you can describe the style somewhat:
High pressure: Richmond, Collingwood
Half back intercept: West Coast
Kick to kick: Hawthorn
Handball happy: Bulldogs, Richmond
Moves the ball fast in attack: Essendon, Adelaide
etc etc

A true test for St.Kilda in 2019 will be playing consistent footy and establishing a real identity on the field, whatever that may be.

To me WC have been a very strong intercept marking and turnover team for years. What was new last year is the posession oriented game similar to the Hawks.

I see the Saints as a good negative team, we found them very frustrating in both games last year.

What they seemed to me to lack last year is the ability to transition into an attacking team that can take risks and dominate games against good sides. Maybe they're too defensive in the gameplan but these things are complicated and I only saw them live at Spotless.