List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

Is Ross still the man for the job?


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tonygeeks

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Duffield is a good writer (style and ability to communicate). He is very well connected, knows whats happening and has an excellent understanding of footy politics and footy people. As an analyst of the game at a technical level he is poor, and just imagines he is otherwise because he possess those other abilities as above.
West coast are not a particularly skilled side and we are not particularly unskilled. what they are is experienced, well drilled and lucky. I would argue we have never had a more skilled list and the latest draft and trade period only reinforced that.
Being skilled and being able to express it a game is an entirely different thing. When you are under pressure because the team is inexperienced, or lacking in harmony or poorly coached (not saying any of those are definitely true for us, other than the first one), or you just lack ticker, then that pressure is going to cause skill errors. Equally, averagely skilled teams are going to seem more so when they are playing well, harmoniously and winning.
Any analysis Duffield is cooking up that breaks down into 'West Coast are coaching for skills and are skillfull and we are dong the opposite' is beyond skin deep and into idiotic territory for mine.

I doubt we have ever had a side anyone would call particularly skilful experienced or not , so what do you put that down to ?

' luck of the draw ' or are foot skills in particular something we just haven't valued highly enough at daft time and the selection table or worked hard enough on during seasons ?

I'm sorry but whatever you think of Duffield there's one thing you can't dispute and that is he's has probably watched more of both teams training than anyone so at least he has some credibility when it comes to making a call like that


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Square Peg

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You can drive yourself crazy arguing about things Ross says with some people.
It's much better for your sanity if you just remember a simple rule: When things turn out as Ross says they will, it's because he designed it that way. But if they turn out badly, he never meant what he said to be taken seriously, or literally.
 
Jan 14, 2008
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Training on Wed and all other sessions I,ve seen is skill based and then running afterwards.
Where this lack of skills training is coming from is beyond me. What do some on here think, that the boys run around in circles bumping into each other.:rolleyes:
Kicking,hand balls
ground pick ups marking ,leading ,roving packs,ruck work,defensive pressure ,
all practise under the eyes of the untold coaches out there .
 

tonygeeks

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Sep 11, 2016
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Training on Wed and all other sessions I,ve seen is skill based and then running afterwards.
Where this lack of skills training is coming from is beyond me. What do some on here think, that the boys run around in circles bumping into each other.:rolleyes:
Kicking,hand balls
ground pick ups marking ,leading ,roving packs,ruck work,defensive pressure ,
all practise under the eyes of the untold coaches out there .

Yeah you've watched a lot of Freo training which is kinda the point unless you've watched a lot of Eagles training too where do you get your perspective


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Jan 14, 2008
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Yeah you've watched a lot of Freo training which is kinda the point unless you've watched a lot of Eagles training too where do you get your perspective


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The argument is that Freo,s training is not skill based and thats blatantly untrue. If they werent practising their games skills they would be running the boundary for 2 hours.
 

theGav56

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Stop being a dik , that's not the argument at all , it whether we focus on skill as much as the campaigners up the road


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I thought you were challenging my comment about skills being valued? Now it's about whether we practice them more than WC? That is not the same thing. There has been a really clear targeting of players with developed skills, as well as a reported comment that the club (Lyon) believes that skills do not develop massively after draft age.

We also have a report from training observers that skills are indeed part of training, and a report indicating that Lyon is telling players whose skills are below required standards to improve them individually.

Pretty confident in the club's strategy personally, but if you prefer what WC do, enjoy. But again, different clubs would do different training depending on where they see their lists positioned, and it borders on weird to think that our training and WCs should be the same. We have been and continue to be in rebuild mode with massive list and personnel changes. I would suggest that our ideal forward line comprises;
Walters Hogan McCarthy/Cox/Taberner
Bennell Lobb Ballantyne/Matera/Switkowski/Sturt/Schultz

Almost the last thing they need is skills training. They have great skills, which is why they were recruited. First they need to get to know each others names because they have almost never played together. Then they need to know what the hell is expected of them, what the forward strategies are, and what their roles are.
 

wild side

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Mar 29, 2010
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West coast are not a particularly skilled side and we are not particularly unskilled. what they are is experienced, well drilled and lucky. I would argue we have never had a more skilled list and the latest draft and trade period only reinforced that.

meh, you make your own luck. They turned a b grader like Redden into an A grader.
That's their system, it works. Ours hasn't, but Ross was very, very unlucky not to win a GF by now, particularly with the saints!
 
Oct 12, 2017
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Apparently Freo have the second worst list, and are in the bottom three for defence, midfield and forwards.
And West Coast are ranked 11th. Losing Lycett and Le Cras must have pushed them out of contention for the finals.
They had them rated 12th last year, so they've moved up in their analysis! Something seriously wrong with their subjective analysis and/or the Toast's midfield coaching last year was the X Factor.
 

tonygeeks

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I thought you were challenging my comment about skills being valued? Now it's about whether we practice them more than WC? That is not the same thing. There has been a really clear targeting of players with developed skills, as well as a reported comment that the club (Lyon) believes that skills do not develop massively after draft age.

We also have a report from training observers that skills are indeed part of training, and a report indicating that Lyon is telling players whose skills are below required standards to improve them individually.

Pretty confident in the club's strategy personally, but if you prefer what WC do, enjoy. But again, different clubs would do different training depending on where they see their lists positioned, and it borders on weird to think that our training and WCs should be the same. We have been and continue to be in rebuild mode with massive list and personnel changes. I would suggest that our ideal forward line comprises;
Walters Hogan McCarthy/Cox/Taberner
Bennell Lobb Ballantyne/Matera/Switkowski/Sturt/Schultz

Almost the last thing they need is skills training. They have great skills, which is why they were recruited. First they need to get to know each others names because they have almost never played together. Then they need to know what the hell is expected of them, what the forward strategies are, and what their roles are.

How else can you have an opinion on whether there is enough skill training besides watch other teams and what a team dishes up on the weekend ?

Glad you fully endorse the way the club is going about things , just don't get what you could base it on without watching at least 2 teams train quite a bit

Err such as the bloke I quoted funnily enough


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Oct 12, 2017
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8R3BRxl.jpg


http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-11-28/lyon-flags-simpler-times-at-back-to-the-future-freo

Back to the future! :cool:
He's changed the preseason focus making it simpler, so hope this carries on and translates not only defense, but press breakers and attacking skills to kick to an open player under game pressure and kicking goals. Simples.

"When I walked in through the door (in 2012), I said let's get fit, get available and be on the same page, so we're stripping it back to the three focuses.

Not really sure what being on the same page is, but I've been happy with the reports on pre season so far.
 

88mph

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He's changed the preseason focus making it simpler, so hope this carries on and translates not only defense, but press breakers and attacking skills to kick to an open player under game pressure and kicking goals. Simples.

"When I walked in through the door (in 2012), I said let's get fit, get available and be on the same page, so we're stripping it back to the three focuses.

Not really sure what being on the same page is, but I've been happy with the reports on pre season so far.
In a way RTB is saying he made it too complicated. That's someone acknowledging they stuffed up.

This is a good thing.
 

theGav56

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How else can you have an opinion on whether there is enough skill training besides watch other teams and what a team dishes up on the weekend ?

Glad you fully endorse the way the club is going about things , just don't get what you could base it on without watching at least 2 teams train quite a bit

Err such as the bloke I quoted funnily enough


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Well, you totally fail to respond to any of my points and come out with this rubbish.

If you want to have a fair opinion on things, you compare like to like. If you think WCs and our squad are at similar stages of development and are therefore like for like, then I credit you for your creative thinking and colourful imagination.

I have no opinion about how much emphasis is put on skills at training for either club. I live in Bali. But I can see clearly from here that Fremantle have put a massive value on skills by the way they have drafted and traded. They are consistently better skilled than we have attracted in the past. Sutcliffe and Grey are out the door despite having years of football ahead of them, and Bewley and Schultz are in. And it is all about their skills.
 

estibador

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meh, you make your own luck.

True to a point, but my god they had some luck go their way that was totally our of their control. If Richmond hadn't shat the bed against Collingwood they would have smoked the eagles in the GF.

Compare that to our year. We had a rock/paper/scissors thing going with Hawthorn and Geelong. Great record against Geelong, particularly in recent finals, but couldn't beat Hawthorn to save our lives. And what happens? Varcoe misses a goal with 30 seconds left in the prelim to finally end Geelong's 11 game streak against Hawthorn and leave us facing our kryptonite in the grannie. FML!
 

yakka man

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True to a point, but my god they had some luck go their way that was totally our of their control. If Richmond hadn't shat the bed against Collingwood they would have smoked the eagles in the GF.

Compare that to our year. We had a rock/paper/scissors thing going with Hawthorn and Geelong. Great record against Geelong, particularly in recent finals, but couldn't beat Hawthorn to save our lives. And what happens? Varcoe misses a goal with 30 seconds left in the prelim to finally end Geelong's 11 game streak against Hawthorn and leave us facing our kryptonite in the grannie. FML!

Luck is a tricky concept. Famous historical figures, such as Caeser or Alexander of Macedon, are often said to have been 'lucky', but that is often framed in their time as being blessed by their ancient gods. What both those two have in common is their virtue of going after what they want quickly and aggressively. In the end you could argue that you actions determine your luck. As Alexander the great himself is claimed to have said, 'fortune favours the bold' (or brave). Our club could definitely benefit from being more aggressive on the field. From a list management perceptive we have done fine.
 
Jan 14, 2008
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[QU;)OTE="tonygeeks, post: 58978155, member: 175787"]Stop being a dik , that's not the argument at all , it whether we focus on skill as much as the campaigners up the road


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So youre a dik if we dont agree with your opinion. I would say thats a tad more dik worthy.;)
 

tonygeeks

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[QU;)OTE="tonygeeks, post: 58978155, member: 175787"]Stop being a dik , that's not the argument at all , it whether we focus on skill as much as the campaigners up the road


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So youre a dik if we dont agree with your opinion. I would say thats a tad more dik worthy.;)[/QUOTE]

Duffields opinion not mine , because unlike your royal righteousness I try to avoid having strong opinions on subjects I know nothing about


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malpaso

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Training on Wed and all other sessions I,ve seen is skill based and then running afterwards.
Where this lack of skills training is coming from is beyond me. What do some on here think, that the boys run around in circles bumping into each other.:rolleyes:
Kicking,hand balls
ground pick ups marking ,leading ,roving packs,ruck work,defensive pressure ,
all practise under the eyes of the untold coaches out there .
Cmon Salim, it can't be! Impossible! Lyon must have been interstate attending a Paul Roos hosted 'Effort, Effort, Effort' dinner..
 

yakka man

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So now it's complicated instead of one-dimensional, spare me..

I'm sorry that I upset you with a quote from an ex-player under Lyon who is on good terms with him, and therefore has no reason to lie :huh: Calling a game plan complicated isn't necessarily a criticism either...
 
Jan 23, 2011
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Duffield is a good writer (style and ability to communicate). He is very well connected, knows whats happening and has an excellent understanding of footy politics and footy people. As an analyst of the game at a technical level he is poor, and just imagines he is otherwise because he possess those other abilities as above.
West coast are not a particularly skilled side and we are not particularly unskilled. what they are is experienced, well drilled and lucky. I would argue we have never had a more skilled list and the latest draft and trade period only reinforced that.
Being skilled and being able to express it a game is an entirely different thing. When you are under pressure because the team is inexperienced, or lacking in harmony or poorly coached (not saying any of those are definitely true for us, other than the first one), or you just lack ticker, then that pressure is going to cause skill errors. Equally, averagely skilled teams are going to seem more so when they are playing well, harmoniously and winning.
Any analysis Duffield is cooking up that breaks down into 'West Coast are coaching for skills and are skillfull and we are dong the opposite' is beyond skin deep and into idiotic territory for mine.

Duffield is by far my favourite footy journo. Enjoy his podcasts as well during the season.

I’m an objective person just like Ross who said if I’m not challenging by 2020 I’ve had enough time.

Simple:
If we win 12 games or more in 2019 he stays
If we win 11 games or less in 2019 he goes.
 

theGav56

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Duffield is by far my favourite footy journo. Enjoy his podcasts as well during the season.

I’m an objective person just like Ross who said if I’m not challenging by 2020 I’ve had enough time.

Simple:
If we win 12 games or more in 2019 he stays
If we win 11 games or less in 2019 he goes.
Haha. Either way with those numbers, the same debate will keep rolling on.
 
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