Traded 2018 Live Trade: Carlton trade #4 (2019) to Adelaide for #19 (2018) and #9 (2019)

[Jeremias]

Suns had pick 6 and need inside midfielders. Ben King is more of a flight risk than Stocker. Maybe, they did have Stocker in the top 10.
GWS had picks 11 and pick and they picked Hately who is an inside mid.
Crows had picks 9,16 and 19 and they placed a bid on Thomas.
Cats had pick 15.
Dockers had pick 17 and need more help in the middle. If they rated him pick 10, then they would have picked him.
Port had picks 12 and 18.

I don't rate Freo's and Suns ability to spot first round talent but the other teams have a pretty good record.

Doesn't take rocket science to work out that at least 5 clubs didn't rate Stocker in the top 10.

None of this shows these clubs didn't rate Stocker inside their top 10, only that they rated the players they picked higher.

I don't know how you could possibly think otherwise.

 

[AndyLucimitis]

Suns had pick 6 and need inside midfielders. Ben King is more of a flight risk than Stocker. Maybe, they did have Stocker in the top 10.
GWS had picks 11 and pick and they picked Hately who is an inside mid.
Crows had picks 9,16 and 19 and they placed a bid on Thomas.
Cats had pick 15.
Dockers had pick 17 and need more help in the middle. If they rated him pick 10, then they would have picked him.
Port had picks 12 and 18.

I don't rate Freo's and Suns ability to spot first round talent but the other teams have a pretty good record.

Doesn't take rocket science to work out that at least 5 clubs didn't rate Stocker in the top 10.

I'd be comfortable to say no other club rather Stocker in the Top 10 other than Carlton.

 

[eastfreo75]

You say ' no brainer' picks but he chose Charlie Curnow at Pick 12-ish when 10 other clubs overlooked him. Does he get credit for that ?

Don't quote me on the exact draft positions but Zac Fisher at 25 and Tom Williamson at 60-odd are also looking to be great gets.

I will quote myself "a lot of pass mark picks (remember it's an easier to get a game at the Blues)".

Curnow was a slider due to him refusing to do a breath test.

By the way, the Blues picked Harry Mckay at 10.

Therefore, rating Mckay over Curnow. That's special talent spotting.

 

[eastfreo75]

None of this shows these clubs didn't rate Stocker inside their top 10, only that they rated the players they picked higher.

I don't know how you could possibly think otherwise.

ok then.

 

[Jeremias]

By the way, the Blues picked Harry Mckay at 10.

Therefore, rating Mckay over Curnow. That's special talent spotting.

From memory, there was talk at the time that the Crows (who had the one pick between our two) were keen on Harry, but not on Charlie.

If that's true then the order we picked them in has little to do with how we valued them.

ok then.

Sorry to have brought a bit of common sense to the discussion.

 

[AndyLucimitis]

I will quote myself "a lot of pass mark picks (remember it's an easier to get a game at the Blues)".

Curnow was a slider due to him refusing to do a breath test.

By the way, the Blues picked Harry Mckay at 10.

Therefore, rating Mckay over Curnow. That's special talent spotting.

Look - if we don't rise up the ladder in the next few years then we can say that SOS was failure - but I can't see how anyone can make that call now given the very public plan of going to three drafts and turning over what I think is now nearly 50 players in three years.

Interesting you say we only rate him because he is a Carlton legend.

I would also present the counter argument - SOS is the most scrutinized and criticized because he is a Carlton club legend.

 

[eastfreo75]

Look - if we don't rise up the ladder in the next few years then we can say that SOS was failure - but I can't see how anyone can make that call now given the very public plan of going to three drafts and turning over what I think is now nearly 50 players in three years.

Interesting you say we only rate him because he is a Carlton legend.

I would also present the counter argument - SOS is the most scrutinized and criticized because he is a Carlton club legend.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself.

SOS has a done a good job the Blues but this trade I think is crazy.

Most of the drafting seem to me is solid but not special or way more superior than other clubs.

All the comments from the Blues supporters I've seen have 100% in support of the decision.

Seems to me that if someone else made the decision their would be more negative reactions from Blue fans.

 

[Arr0w]

Maybe I'm not explaining myself.

SOS has a done a good job the Blues but this trade I think is crazy.

Most of the drafting seem to me is solid but not special or way more superior than other clubs.

All the comments from the Blues supporters I've seen have 100% in support of the decision.

Seems to me that if someone else made the decision their would be more negative reactions from Blue fans.

I think you should be more concerned with your own side's list management and drafting, given your side has achieved nothing since inception

 

[HARKER]

Maybe I'm not explaining myself.
SOS has a done a good job the Blues but this trade I think is crazy.
Most of the drafting seem to me is solid but not special or way more superior than other clubs.
All the comments from the Blues supporters I've seen have 100% in support of the decision.
Seems to me that if someone else made the decision their would be more negative reactions from Blue fans.

If one can justify that Stocker wasn't in any way a top ten talent or a required piece to the CFC, then fine, but otherwise to suggest this trade was crazy without understanding the full scope of how the trade came about, suggests that maybe a little more research is required.

Trade was justified. End result? We'll see.

 

[eastfreo75]

If one can justify that Stocker wasn't in any way a top ten talent or a required piece to the CFC, then fine, but otherwise to suggest this trade was crazy without understanding the full scope of how the trade came about, suggests that maybe a little more research is required.

Trade was justified. End result? We'll see.

http://motivatedmastery.com/why-we-...-how-to-pop-the-bubble-of-self-justification/

 

[HARKER]

http://motivatedmastery.com/why-we-...-how-to-pop-the-bubble-of-self-justification/

That's really funny and all and I've already put forward all the reasons for the trade being justifiable.

Now here's something for you to work with: Show us it's not. No references required....just show us your mind at work.

 

[eastfreo75]

That's really funny and all and I've already put forward all the reasons for the trade being justifiable.

Now here's something for you to work with: Show us it's not. No references required....just show me your mind at work.

Crows pick 19 and 10-18 for pick 1-4.

https://www.draftguru.com.au/analysis/pick-value-comparison/medians

Trading two late first pick for a early first pick is madness.

 

[HARKER]

Crows pick 19 and 10-18 for pick 1-4.

https://www.draftguru.com.au/analysis/pick-value-comparison/medians

Trading two late first pick for a early first pick is madness.

You see what you're doing wrong? You're looking at numbers and numbers only.

Give yourself the chance to look a little deeper in terms of the CFC's objectives this year, possibilities the next and some shape may start to form.

Can't just look at numbers and only possible numbers at that. What do they even mean? How do the qualities of the drafts present just for starters?

You've only peeled back one layer of the onion. You have several left to go...

 

[eastfreo75]

You see what you're doing wrong? You're looking at numbers and numbers only.

Give yourself the chance to look a little deeper in terms of the CFC's objectives this year, possibilities the next and some shape may start to form.

Can't just look at numbers and only possible numbers at that. What do they even mean? How do the qualities of the drafts present just for starters?

You've only peeled back one layer of the onion. You have several left to go...

Please correct me, my take on the Blues objectives.

1. Go hard at free agency and trade heavy for ready made talent.

2. Already got a spine ie Curnow,Mckay,McGovern and wants to add depth to the midfield.

3. Aiming to be in finals contention in 2019.

4. End the rebuild this year by trading future pick for a present pick.

5. Axing Bolton when a better option comes around (trolling).

For me, the Blues are running one year ahead of where their list is at.

 

[My name geoff]

Maybe I'm not explaining myself.

SOS has a done a good job the Blues but this trade I think is crazy.

Most of the drafting seem to me is solid but not special or way more superior than other clubs.

All the comments from the Blues supporters I've seen have 100% in support of the decision.

Seems to me that if someone else made the decision their would be more negative reactions from Blue fans.

Current AFL players SOS has lost:

Gibbs, Tuohy, Buckley, Holman, henderson, gowers

Current AFL Players SOS has brought in:

McGovern, Curnow, McKay, Weitering, Marchbank, Plowman, Garlett, Pickett, Lang, Setterfield, Cuningham, lebois, O’Brien, Macreadie, dekoning, Walsh, SPS, Silvagni, B.Silvagni, Williamson, Newman, Fisher, Goddard, Fasolo, Philips, Lobbe, Polson, Kerr, Shumacher, Kennedy, Stocker, owies, o’Dwyer, bugg


What Silvagni has achieved is outrageously good

 

[Ambrosia]

Current AFL players SOS has lost:

Gibbs, Tuohy, Buckley, Holman, henderson, gowers

Current AFL Players SOS has brought in:

McGovern, Curnow, McKay, Weitering, Marchbank, Plowman, Garlett, Pickett, Lang, Setterfield, Cuningham, lebois, O’Brien, Macreadie, dekoning, Walsh, SPS, Silvagni, B.Silvagni, Williamson, Newman, Fisher, Goddard, Fasolo, Philips, Lobbe, Polson, Kerr, Shumacher, Kennedy, Stocker, owies, o’Dwyer, bugg


What Silvagni has achieved is outrageously good

This is outright terrible analysis. Delisting blokes not up to AFL then drafting speculative kids isn't impressive.

Anyway I think SOS is copping too much heat for this trade . He isn't a scout he's the list manager he needs to trust his talent scouts. If they are saying we can trade our 2019 first for the bloke they rated at 6 this year whilst retaining a 2019 first rounder he has to do it as it's a no brainier .

 

[My name geoff]

This is outright terrible analysis. Delisting blokes not up to AFL then drafting speculative kids isn't impressive.

Anyway I think SOS is copping too much heat for this trade . He isn't a scout he's the list manager he needs to trust his talent scouts. If they are saying we can trade our 2019 first for the bloke they rated at 6 this year whilst retaining a 2019 first rounder he has to do it as it's a no brainier .

The point is to illustrate the volume of players Silvagni has brought in at the expense of very little. I can count at least 11 of the guys brought in that every club would take without hesitation. That’s pretty spectacular work for 3 years of recruiting

 

[Drewie11]

Current AFL players SOS has lost:

Gibbs, Tuohy, Buckley, Holman, henderson, gowers

Current AFL Players SOS has brought in:

McGovern, Curnow, McKay, Weitering, Marchbank, Plowman, Garlett, Pickett, Lang, Setterfield, Cuningham, lebois, O’Brien, Macreadie, dekoning, Walsh, SPS, Silvagni, B.Silvagni, Williamson, Newman, Fisher, Goddard, Fasolo, Philips, Lobbe, Polson, Kerr, Shumacher, Kennedy, Stocker, owies, o’Dwyer, bugg


What Silvagni has achieved is outrageously good

Didn’t he bring in Palmer, O’shae, mullet, and there are some others that have been delisted?

 

[My name geoff]

Didn’t he bring in Palmer, O’shae, mullet, and there are some others that have been delisted?

Talking current players.

 

[Drewie11]

Talking current players.

Yes but shouldn’t you include all players sos has brought in and lost over 3 years if you are going to include everything he has done in 3 years?

 

[My name geoff]

Yes but shouldn’t you include all players sos has brought in and lost over 3 years if you are going to include everything he has done in 3 years?

Not really. Some players were brought in as salary dumps to play vfl and have since been delisted. Of no relevance here.

 

[Dudersaurus]

Not really. Some players were brought in as salary dumps to play vfl and have since been delisted. Of no relevance here.

To state the obvious, if a player is brought in for a salary dump, it is the donating club that gets the benefit, and a detriment to Carlton. That isn't a great example of how he's done a good job.

Not getting into the relative value of SOS, but that example seems nonsensical.

 

[My name geoff]

To state the obviously, if a player is brought in for a salary dump, it is the donating club that gets the benefit, and a detriment to Carlton. That isn't a great example of how he's done a good job.

Not getting into the relative value of SOS, but that example seems nonsensical.

To state the obviously, you don’t understand the point of salary dumps.

 

[Ambrosia]

The point is to illustrate the volume of players Silvagni has brought in at the expense of very little. I can count at least 11 of the guys brought in that every club would take without hesitation. That’s pretty spectacular work for 3 years of recruiting

Is drafting players really that impressive? Every team gets draft picks

 

[Dudersaurus]

To state the obviously, you don’t understand the point of salary dumps.

Sure. I'll bite.

My understanding of a salary dump is giving away a player who has a high-priced contract for less than normal trade value because the receiving club will pay the salary. Hence reducing cap stress. Like Scully (exuding arguments re injury risk).

How exactly does bringing a player on an expensive contract to your club, specifically just so they can play vfl and save cap space for another club, aid you in any way?

Clearly I have no idea, so I beg to be educated.