Development of junior batsmen

big_e

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I had a look at the amount of Shield centuries being scored during the past 20 years and there appears to be a lower amount of centuries being scored since the Big Bash started. Last year was the lowest number of centuries scored in the past 20 seasons (52). Highest was 70 twice.

What was noticeable was players scoring 5-8 centuries in a shield season. This appears to be much rarer lately. These days 3 will be enough to score the most in a season. Gone are the days of Bevan (8), Elliott (7), Hayden (7), Lehmann and Katich (6). Voges in 14/15 with 6 is pretty much the only player since early-mid 2000's to score 6 or more. Rogers is the last player with 5 in 08/09. There is just no consistency lately.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/batting/most_runs_series.html?id=114;type=trophy

1997-98: 70
1998-99: 68
1999-00: 67 (6 by Lehmann)
2000-01: 57 (6 by Katich)
2001-02: 66
2002-03: 58
2003-04: 69 (7 by Elliott)
2004-05: 65 (8 by Bevan)
2005-06: 62
2006-07: 60
2007-08: 60
2008-09: 68
2009-10: 63
2010-11: 55
2011-12: 58
2012-13: 58
2013-14: 57
2014-15: 70 (6 by Voges)
2015-16: 64
2016-17: 57
2017-18: 52
Ric Finlay did the comparison on a ten-year basis.


I think they call that reversion to the mean.
 

Dragz

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Not long after I was invited to do a session with some 13 year olds at a regional talent session. As I walked into the net - the clown running session said to the batsman “ok this ball has to go to fine leg” (the ball was about 5th stump line) I turned and walked out, the Coach came after me, wondering why - I told him I was the wrong man for the job, what he was doing was totally against my philosophy of batting. I know one thing - I’m not wrong.

Erg. It's not rocket science is it? Sometimes the old methods work well.
 

TheMcManusNose

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Most issues have been covered in previous posts.
One of the WORST things that has been done across the States, is playing blokes based on "Talent" rather than "Performance".
Jonathon Wells for Tassie (And now WA?) is a great example. Averages early 20's...after 100 plus innings... As an Opener/Middle order batsman.
No idea why he kept getting a go. He's not going to get any better or any more consistent.

Hang on a sec.

Johnno Wells is not being picked on talent rather than performance. He consistently, for the last few years, has absolutely dominated futures league whenever he has been dropped back there. He's back in the WA side this round as an S.Marsh replacement because he just hit 161 at the level below. Bosisto is the same, as is Larkin for NSW. It looks like Larkin might have finally hit his straps but with the other two it is a bit hard to not pick someone when they are absolutely dominating the level below. You are probably right in that they are not going to get better but I don't think it in any way reflects an obsession with talent over performance.
 

gbatman

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I had a look at the amount of Shield centuries being scored during the past 20 years and there appears to be a lower amount of centuries being scored since the Big Bash started. Last year was the lowest number of centuries scored in the past 20 seasons (52). Highest was 70 twice.

What was noticeable was players scoring 5-8 centuries in a shield season. This appears to be much rarer lately. These days 3 will be enough to score the most in a season. Gone are the days of Bevan (8), Elliott (7), Hayden (7), Lehmann and Katich (6). Voges in 14/15 with 6 is pretty much the only player since early-mid 2000's to score 6 or more. Rogers is the last player with 5 in 08/09. There is just no consistency lately.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/batting/most_runs_series.html?id=114;type=trophy

1997-98: 70
1998-99: 68
1999-00: 67 (6 by Lehmann)
2000-01: 57 (6 by Katich)
2001-02: 66
2002-03: 58
2003-04: 69 (7 by Elliott)
2004-05: 65 (8 by Bevan)
2005-06: 62
2006-07: 60
2007-08: 60
2008-09: 68
2009-10: 63
2010-11: 55
2011-12: 58
2012-13: 58
2013-14: 57
2014-15: 70 (6 by Voges)
2015-16: 64
2016-17: 57
2017-18: 52

Well there you have it. T20 batting mindset and technique is just far too different to Test, First class and One day batting. I think players focus too much on T20 batting which is fair because that's where they make their money. They don't make it by playing ODD and FC cricket.

But in saying this we shouldn't be throwing our arms up in the air either and blaming T20 cricket entirely. All countries have their T20 comps and they all play it so why in Australia is it having such a negative influence on our longer formats? To me I think it comes down to how those players prepare between formats. I think there needs to be a significant reprogramming period between T20 and other cricket and I think we need to look at how they train and what aspects of their game is being trained and whether some areas are being left out.

The difficult thing is that the time between all these formats of cricket is so short.

Maybe we need to reformat things instead of trying to cram everything into traditional "cricket season".

Start the season with the Sheffield Shield. Players have all off season to prepare for the Sheffield Shield. Start it in mid October. The One Day domestic comp is a joke now, so lets play it in the off season, play it in winter and spring in the north of the country. Play it in Queensland and NSW, NT etc. Maybe bring a few games to VIC, Tas, WA, SA if the weather is fine at the back end of this. Make it a flexible fixture. Then we have the big bash after the Shield season.

Give players the chance to focus on the longer formats, train for it and get that right. Have a less condensed cricket format where players can transition to easier with more time to do so.

Get away from the traditional cricket in cricket season thing and just play it when appropriate.
 
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We could surely play the extra BBL games they want but keep the tournament relatively shorter.

More double headers 5-8pm and 8-11pm EST. Utilising the Adelaide and Perth home games for the late timeslot.

Two months out of the cricket season is a huge chunk. The test squad that toured South Africa last year barely played a Shield game in the lead up from memory? And that was with last year's schedule, let alone an expanded one.
 
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Well there you have it. T20 batting mindset and technique is just far too different to Test, First class and One day batting. I think players focus too much on T20 batting which is fair because that's where they make their money. They don't make it by playing ODD and FC cricket.

But in saying this we shouldn't be throwing our arms up in the air either and blaming T20 cricket entirely. All countries have their T20 comps and they all play it so why in Australia is it having such a negative influence on our longer formats? To me I think it comes down to how those players prepare between formats. I think there needs to be a significant reprogramming period between T20 and other cricket and I think we need to look at how they train and what aspects of their game is being trained and whether some areas are being left out.

The difficult thing is that the time between all these formats of cricket is so short.

Maybe we need to reformat things instead of trying to cram everything into traditional "cricket season".

Start the season with the Sheffield Shield. Players have all off season to prepare for the Sheffield Shield. Start it in mid October. The One Day domestic comp is a joke now, so lets play it in the off season, play it in winter and spring in the north of the country. Play it in Queensland and NSW, NT etc. Maybe bring a few games to VIC, Tas, WA, SA if the weather is fine at the back end of this. Make it a flexible fixture. Then we have the big bash after the Shield season.

Give players the chance to focus on the longer formats, train for it and get that right. Have a less condensed cricket format where players can transition to easier with more time to do so.

Get away from the traditional cricket in cricket season thing and just play it when appropriate.
It's not like ppl are rocking up to shield games in the traditional period anyway
 

big_e

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Well there you have it. T20 batting mindset and technique is just far too different to Test, First class and One day batting. I think players focus too much on T20 batting which is fair because that's where they make their money. They don't make it by playing ODD and FC cricket.

But in saying this we shouldn't be throwing our arms up in the air either and blaming T20 cricket entirely. All countries have their T20 comps and they all play it so why in Australia is it having such a negative influence on our longer formats? To me I think it comes down to how those players prepare between formats. I think there needs to be a significant reprogramming period between T20 and other cricket and I think we need to look at how they train and what aspects of their game is being trained and whether some areas are being left out.

The difficult thing is that the time between all these formats of cricket is so short.

Maybe we need to reformat things instead of trying to cram everything into traditional "cricket season".

Start the season with the Sheffield Shield. Players have all off season to prepare for the Sheffield Shield. Start it in mid October. The One Day domestic comp is a joke now, so lets play it in the off season, play it in winter and spring in the north of the country. Play it in Queensland and NSW, NT etc. Maybe bring a few games to VIC, Tas, WA, SA if the weather is fine at the back end of this. Make it a flexible fixture. Then we have the big bash after the Shield season.

Give players the chance to focus on the longer formats, train for it and get that right. Have a less condensed cricket format where players can transition to easier with more time to do so.

Get away from the traditional cricket in cricket season thing and just play it when appropriate.
Its easy to blame T20s, but as with Ric Finlay's stats in my post yesterday, the number of 100s per FC match in the last ten years is higher than it was from 1928-37, 48-57, 58-67, 68-77, and 78-87. And we didn't have T20 then.
 
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It's not like ppl are rocking up to shield games in the traditional period anyway
We should certainly be utilising the northern winters better.

You can play on turf in Darwin and Queensland during the winter months. Our Shield squads are busy facing ball machines in indoor centres which does sweet **** all for them.
 
Its easy to blame T20s, but as with Ric Finlay's stats in my post yesterday, the number of 100s per FC match in the last ten years is higher than it was from 1928-37, 48-57, 58-67, 68-77, and 78-87. And we didn't have T20 then.

Which most likely means development has regressed, despite batting conditions being better than ever before.
 

corbies

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Which most likely means development has regressed, despite batting conditions being better than ever before.
Are they though? The pitches in the Shield have been much harder to bat on in the last 5 years then they were in the previous 5-10.
 

big_e

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Are they though? The pitches in the Shield have been much harder to bat on in the last 5 years then they were in the previous 5-10.
And we're playing more on secondary grounds - Glenelg, Allan Border Field, Manuka, Alice Springs, et al - where conditions won't always be as good as the test grounds, you're less comfortable on them because you might never have played there before, etc There are a number of small things that all add up.
 
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There has been a lot of criticism of Dave Warner on this forum, some fair, some not so fair. IMHO, we have Warner to blame for the state of batting in Australia at present. Before he came along, we understood the differences and requirements of Test cricket as opposed to truncated forms of the game. We saw situations where Mark Taylor scored 100s at Test level but not selected for ODIs. Even Matthew Hayden found it difficult to get selected for one day cricket. Certain types of bowler was picked, a greater focus on "allrounders", players with the ability to make 20 or 30 and bowl 10 tidy overs.

Then along came Warner, smashing balls into oblivion in the T20 game. Spectacular, brutal, but he was never going to play Test cricket right? What we didn't realise was the ability of the man to adapt his game to the longer forms of the game. He not only succeeded at Test level, he dominated.

This is when I feel we took our eye off the ball. If Warner could do it, then surely we will be inundated by future players all able to do the same. Test and T20 appeared to be a happy marriage. We played more and more T20 cricket, we saw a host of talented stroke players come through the system, but when it came to taking their games to Sheffield Shield or Test levels, they couldn't do it ... for one reason or another. We failed to realise Warner was the exception rather than the rule.

In essence, we failed to appreciate the effort required in nurturing future Test cricketers of quality.
 
Are they though? The pitches in the Shield have been much harder to bat on in the last 5 years then they were in the previous 5-10.

They were saying that five years ago as well. Top fiften wicket-takers in 2012/13: Sayers, Butterworth, Faulkner, Mennie, Hopes, Gannon, Hogan, Copeland, Bollinger, Bird, Hastings, Hilfenhaus, Coulter-Nile, Pattinson, Feldman.

There was certainly a period when batsmen dominated Shield cricket - 2003/04 has some very ordinary numbers for the bowlers - but if given the same conditions now as then, would we expect the current crop to feast on it as the batsmen then did? Elliott, Goodwin and Law made over 1000 runs that season. Katich made nearly 900 in only six matches.
 

corbies

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Of course it matters. You're trying to compare the game in a professional era to a time when players had separate jobs to earn a living and didn't have the time to work on their game.
What? The stat is first class hundreds per match over a decade. Those factors you raise above are the exact same for the bowlers of that era.

What you're saying is batsman should be making more hundreds now then in the past due to them being professional now but isn't that also true for bowling? They should be getting batsman out for less than 100 more now because they are professional and have time to work on their game?
 

corbies

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They were saying that five years ago as well. Top fiften wicket-takers in 2012/13: Sayers, Butterworth, Faulkner, Mennie, Hopes, Gannon, Hogan, Copeland, Bollinger, Bird, Hastings, Hilfenhaus, Coulter-Nile, Pattinson, Feldman.

There was certainly a period when batsmen dominated Shield cricket - 2003/04 has some very ordinary numbers for the bowlers - but if given the same conditions now as then, would we expect the current crop to feast on it as the batsmen then did? Elliott, Goodwin and Law made over 1000 runs that season. Katich made nearly 900 in only six matches.
Yeah my timing sucked with this. Its probably been closer to 10 years since shield wickets were spiced up.
 
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There has been a lot of criticism of Dave Warner on this forum, some fair, some not so fair. IMHO, we have Warner to blame for the state of batting in Australia at present. Before he came along, we understood the differences and requirements of Test cricket as opposed to truncated forms of the game. We saw situations where Mark Taylor scored 100s at Test level but not selected for ODIs. Even Matthew Hayden found it difficult to get selected for one day cricket. Certain types of bowler was picked, a greater focus on "allrounders", players with the ability to make 20 or 30 and bowl 10 tidy overs.

Then along came Warner, smashing balls into oblivion in the T20 game. Spectacular, brutal, but he was never going to play Test cricket right? What we didn't realise was the ability of the man to adapt his game to the longer forms of the game. He not only succeeded at Test level, he dominated.

This is when I feel we took our eye off the ball. If Warner could do it, then surely we will be inundated by future players all able to do the same. Test and T20 appeared to be a happy marriage. We played more and more T20 cricket, we saw a host of talented stroke players come through the system, but when it came to taking their games to Sheffield Shield or Test levels, they couldn't do it ... for one reason or another. We failed to realise Warner was the exception rather than the rule.

In essence, we failed to appreciate the effort required in nurturing future Test cricketers of quality.
Bottom line, Warner has very solid batting technique - that's why he can play all forms, those that cannot play red ball cricket do not, it's very, very basic and simple.
 
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And we're playing more on secondary grounds - Glenelg, Allan Border Field, Manuka, Alice Springs, et al - where conditions won't always be as good as the test grounds, you're less comfortable on them because you might never have played there before, etc There are a number of small things that all add up.
Glenelg is new, but a lot of regional towns no longer get games. Newcastle, Launceston, Devonport all used to get games every year and now don't get any. Victoria even played the odd game at Warnambool and perhaps once at Morwell from memory. I think WA played at Bunbury at times.
All these grounds were taken off the circuit with the updated requirements for FC games. The use of Allan Border Field, Glenelg and now Junction Oval might mean more games away from test venues but I'm not sure it means more games on less certain surfaces.
Any slight disadvantage is more than made up for by having bats with much greater power and, more importantly, much larger middles.
 

big_e

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He reckons his type (small, not a big player) would now get missed - that’s was his observation not mine
I've just finished Gideon Haigh's book and I think I know where he's coming from now. The standard pathway is seen as old hat, and it's all about finding bright shiny stars rather than good solid cricketers.
 
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I've just finished Gideon Haigh's book and I think I know where he's coming from now. The standard pathway is seen as old hat, and it's all about finding bright shiny stars rather than good solid cricketers.
To the detriment of the game
 
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