- Thread starter
- #126
2 players that are best 22 in finals sides not making our team in a year's time?
Let's get realistic
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List Mgmt. 2019 FA Targets
- Thread starter Arr0w
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2 players that are best 22 in finals sides not making our team in a year's time?
Let's get realistic
Absolutely would be dissapointed if the talent we will have acquired in the rebuild come 12 months time wouldnt well and truely put these 2 in the shade.
Many tiger fans dont rate Ellis who was dropped this year and Cunningham is a journeyman.
But back to your initial claim of preferring these 2 over Coniglio.
Lets get realistic indeed ...
- Thread starter
- #129
How many "elite" players part of the last 3 flags?
Bont, Martin, maybe Rance?
Great sides are about your bottom 6, not your best 6
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- Jun 4, 2016
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Realistically gaining Coniglio will put so much cap pressure on and force out some of those players you assume are already in our side that’ll be going past Cunningham and Ellis, especially if they do indeed improve.
Realistically you can’t poach someone as good as Coniglio, when the club isn’t even his home state, and expect to keep the number of young players we have as they come on. The salary cap just won’t allow it. You’re in la la land if you think fisher sps setterfield Dow Walsh Cripps Weitering McKay Curnow are all gonna fit along side a poached Coniglio as well as all the other young guys who’ve got potential like stocker Williamson Marchbank *our next number 1 ruck* O’Brien
The best players GWS have added have been lower cost players like Shaw and de boar. Not the high cost players like deledio and Griffen.
If you can’t tell I think the clubs past the point of going after a huge star like Kelly or cogs. More Needs based targets are the way to go - like Richmond when they brought in a ruckman, a big bodied midfielder/ forward and a crafty smaller midfielder in Nankervis, caddy and Prestia.
Are you serious ?
2 , maybe 3 elite players only in the last 3 premiership teams ?
Think you might need to take a break mate ...
- Thread starter
- #132
Name them
- Thread starter
- #134
Okay so you can't name them, happy to be on record
goBlue
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- Oct 7, 2017
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- #137
At the moment I dont really mind if we dont get anyone tbh. The only player i'd be interested in is Kelly, but we'd have to pay a lot.
Other depth players like Ellis from Richmond or Hunt from Melbourne would be good for speed and drive.
Other depth players like Ellis from Richmond or Hunt from Melbourne would be good for speed and drive.
I don’t understand how you can actually believe that the lesser players will influence a teams fortunes more than their guns, imo that is absolute nonsense. Sure, you need depth and plenty of players who can perform their role, winning teams tend to be comparatively more experienced so their role players have a good understanding of the system and what they need to do. But when you look at the great teams, the bottom players change every year because they are easily interchangeable role players. Those teams tend to remain great whilst their gun players can still perform at a high level, they help generate a lot of confidence through the playing group.
- Aug 16, 2009
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So you just wanted to pot someone elses perspective without having to provide a counterargument?
There's validity to Arrow's views and suggesting that he take a break on the back of a difference of opinion is unwarranted.
I think that it's important that we remember too that many of us have different interpretations for "elite" footballers, some believe that there's maybe 10 elite players across the whole comp whilst there are others believe that most sides will have 5-6 elite players.
- Thread starter
- #140
Parap I am not suggesting you don't need gun players, like the Cripps, Curnows of the game, but your side is only as good as your bottom 6.
With guys like Gaff, Nic Nat out, the lesser players such as Hutchings, Schofield, Vardy were extremely important to them
The players I mentioned that we could target, such as Cunningham, Tomlinson, Ellis (or any other B graders) aren't mugs and would walk into most sides.
Tigers added Nankervis, Prestia, Caddy, Townsend, all of which played vital roles and most are best 22
Like this year for us, adding MM, Setterfield, Newman, Fasolo, rather than one Dylan Shiel, is better for our overall strength, IMHO
There is no doubt that Coniglio is elite, but would our side be stronger with just adding him, over a mix of 2 or 3 A- B graders?
I guess come the end of next year, we will have a better idea of our needs going forward
BlueRenaissance
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- Sep 26, 2016
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- #141
Arrow is on the right path.
Target players that add value to our list, will come to our list, and players that wont kill the salary cap.
Coniglio is a long shot while Ellis is feasible, and would add to our runners.
Kelly wouldn't come to us in our current state so is also a long shot. They will use us to increase value.
These top players want a VERY strong midfield so they can avoid the tag. Our midfield is 2 years away and we are not near the 8 yet.
Shiel went from a lock to playing for our arch enemy. Offering him more than Essendon worked in reverse.
Moneyball until we are in the 8. Target affordable role players while we wait for that.
Be patient and stop making our club look desperate. i want...i want
Target players that add value to our list, will come to our list, and players that wont kill the salary cap.
Coniglio is a long shot while Ellis is feasible, and would add to our runners.
Kelly wouldn't come to us in our current state so is also a long shot. They will use us to increase value.
These top players want a VERY strong midfield so they can avoid the tag. Our midfield is 2 years away and we are not near the 8 yet.
Shiel went from a lock to playing for our arch enemy. Offering him more than Essendon worked in reverse.
Moneyball until we are in the 8. Target affordable role players while we wait for that.
Be patient and stop making our club look desperate. i want...i want
- Apr 20, 2006
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When you’re talking two vs one you really have to look at our 21 and 22 second players. Next year would you prefer to play Cunningham and Ellis over say Coniglio and Stocker because that’s similar to what the likely outcome would be.
If we are simply trying to cover needs we should be making very good offers to all of Butler, Ellis, Castagna and a huge one for Rioli. They all fill a need for us and by having a crack at them all, we should be able to shake one or two loose or at worse put Richmond out of the market for recruits because of salary cap pressure.
These discussions need to be mindful of the list management rules. We need to add three through the draft each year. Has been discussed
on a variety of threads, but we need to look at how we create list spots over a three year (at least) period, not just one. Expendable players
are now becoming rare due to a quality rebuild. A few possible retirees over the next couple of years, and our list moving past a couple, but
after that, very subjective as to who can be delisted.
Our mature acquisitions need to be quality from now on. Spitballing and taking multiple second or third tier trade ins is NOT an option any
more. Quality, needs based players or use the draft.
Jimmae
Brownlow Medallist
If they don't make the top 4 and we don't make the bottom 4, it's fine.
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ferrisb
Brownlow Medallist
Just on the topic of the calibre of recruit we should be targeting (eg 1 star vs 2 foot soldiers)....
Here are all the players on recent premiership team lists (2012 onwards) that were recruited from other teams:
Superstars (multiple first rounders): NONE
Stars (cost a top 10 pick): 2017 Prestia, 2016 Boyd, 2015 Burgoyne, Frawley (FA)
Quality players (first 2 rounds): 2018 Redden, Kennedy#, Jetta#, 2017 Caddy, 2016 Suckling (FA), Crameri^, 2013-15 McEvoy#, Gunston, Lake*, Gibson, O'Rourke^, Hale*, 2012 Richards, Mattner
Role Players (3rd round+): 2018 Cripps (J, not P), Vardy, Ah Chee, 2017 Grigg, Houli, Nankervis, Maric^, Hampson^, Miles^, 2016 Stevens, Adcock (DFA), 2013-15 Ceglar (DFA), Spangher, Cheney, Guerra (DFA), 2012 Seaby^, Shaw, Kennedy#, Everitt, Armstrong, McGlynn#, Spangher^, Gordon^
Conclusion: The premiers going back to 2012 have traded in many players, but few were high ticket items (in terms of draft cost or salary). There's contributors across all levels. Some role players have made a big difference, but plenty of spuds too. The list above doesn't stand out as being spectacular recruiting, but it does suggest successful sides don't blow their salary cap on superstar recruits (admittedly, this is limited data).
Notes:
Here are all the players on recent premiership team lists (2012 onwards) that were recruited from other teams:
Superstars (multiple first rounders): NONE
Stars (cost a top 10 pick): 2017 Prestia, 2016 Boyd, 2015 Burgoyne, Frawley (FA)
Quality players (first 2 rounds): 2018 Redden, Kennedy#, Jetta#, 2017 Caddy, 2016 Suckling (FA), Crameri^, 2013-15 McEvoy#, Gunston, Lake*, Gibson, O'Rourke^, Hale*, 2012 Richards, Mattner
Role Players (3rd round+): 2018 Cripps (J, not P), Vardy, Ah Chee, 2017 Grigg, Houli, Nankervis, Maric^, Hampson^, Miles^, 2016 Stevens, Adcock (DFA), 2013-15 Ceglar (DFA), Spangher, Cheney, Guerra (DFA), 2012 Seaby^, Shaw, Kennedy#, Everitt, Armstrong, McGlynn#, Spangher^, Gordon^
Conclusion: The premiers going back to 2012 have traded in many players, but few were high ticket items (in terms of draft cost or salary). There's contributors across all levels. Some role players have made a big difference, but plenty of spuds too. The list above doesn't stand out as being spectacular recruiting, but it does suggest successful sides don't blow their salary cap on superstar recruits (admittedly, this is limited data).
Notes:
- I have classed the players on what they COST, not what they have produced. Therefore, Boyd is a star (pick 6 plus Griffen). Josh Kennedy (Syd) is a role player (him AND McGlynn cost picks 39, 46 and 70). I know Frawley was a FA, but put him as a star, as he was a high-profile target, one of his team's better players.
- Looked at players ON THE LIST in premiership year, not necessarily played in GF; years listed are not years they were traded, but years of premiership
- Key: ^ played less than 5 matches in the premiership year, * would have been FA if FA was around, # trade value not clear as multi-player trade
- Free Agency changes things somewhat as you can chase good players for no draft picks. But there is still salary cap impact.
- This list is not perfect as it's hard to locate historical team lists. Also, my attention span and attention to detail can only take so much.
- We should have recruited Spangher when he retired; guaranteed premiership to follow
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- Dec 18, 2005
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Somebody needs to get down to crows headquarters and play the Tigers theme song on repeat.
Doing the coaches club sponsorship they’ve broken down premiership teams for the last 10-20 years to show us what they are trying to get in our list. They may though quote players as “elite” different to what we do supercoach style. Each premiership team on average they count multiple players as being in “elite” bracket though. Thats from Bolts & his staticians & is probably an AFL stat available to them all.
On the other side. Can you list the superstars who have been traded and how that team has performed since? Great post btw.
ferrisb
Brownlow Medallist
Will try and do the other side when I have time.
At the moment I am I working 10-hour days......it just takes me a week to get through one...
