Play Nice Society, Religion & Politics Thread

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BruceFromBalnarring said:
So atheists dominate the political hierarchy.

Can you think of any instances where that has happened before perhaps?
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The argument you're about to make is and always has been an awful one. Even assuming that any atrocities committed under people who didn't believe in a God or gods did so in the name of atheism, it's dwarfed by religiously motivates violence.
 
What about atrocities committed in the name of communism?
 

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BruceFromBalnarring said:
So atheists dominate the political hierarchy.

Can you think of any instances where that has happened before perhaps?
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Sure. It is also the privileging of religious entities. The C Church kept Ireland as a socially backward joint until recent years. At the same time it enriched itself while directly or indirectly abusing children and the general populace.

I believe the State should withdraw health funding from religious health services or better still take them over.

In Victoria abortions are legal and just another medical procedure. In country Victoria even in places like Bendigo, women find access to terminations. Most docs will get sessions at both the public and Catholic hospital. The latter will not offer sessions to surgeons who perform terminations elsewhere, inc the public hospital. They will employ the same tactic with dying with dignity legislation.
 
I think the French have done better than most advanced Capo countries in separating Church and State. There they have at different times banned students in govt schools wearing advertising material - purdah, yomulkahs, crosses and the like.

Here govts have failed to address the supposed sanctity of the confessional. As far as I'm concerned I support punishing priests who fail to report crime, child sexual assaults by colleagues to the police.

I think people with firm secular views should take on the religious at every reasonable occassion.
 
Bloodied52 said:
This is nonsense about atheism equating to communism. Marx did get it right when he noted religion was the opiate of the masses.
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Marx had a lot of ideas, but the Soviet Union took it a step further and banned religion altogether because it was deemed to be against State interests. Now I'm no great fan of organized religions, but freedom of thought and belief are critical pillars of our democracy. We're lucky to live in a country where we have both freedom of religion as well as freedom from religion - both are important and that's what tolerance is. Separation of church and state is a given, and religious groups must adhere to the law of the land.

Also, while it's unscientific to say how many people died as a result of a particular ideology, since an ideology is a system of ideas that can't commit crimes, rough estimates of the number of people who have died as a result of communism in the last century are as high as 100 million. Opinions do vary, but communism was arguably bloodier than the Inquisition or the Crusades - purges, prison camps, forced labour, murdering of dissidents etc etc
 
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RW said:
Marx had a lot of ideas, but the Soviet Union took it a step further and banned religion altogether because it was deemed to be against State interests. Now I'm no great fan of organized religions, but freedom of thought and belief are critical pillars of our democracy. We're lucky to live in a country where we have both freedom of religion as well as freedom from religion - both are important and that's what tolerance is. Separation of church and state is a given, and religious groups must adhere to the law of the land.

Also, while it's unscientific to say how many people died as a result of a particular ideology, since an ideology is a system of ideas that can't commit crimes, rough estimates of the number of people who have died as a result of communism in the last century are as high as 100 million. Opinions do vary, but Marxism was arguably bloodier than the Inquisition or the Crusades - purges, prison camps, forced labour, murdering of dissidents etc etc.
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Error to equate Marxism with Stalinist Russia. I don't blame Christianity for Nazism, even tho the Vatican gave tacit support.

I don't class China as a Communist State, but imagine it under the previous regimes.

I am very critical of China for dropping the one Child Policy. It had slowed exponential growth rates and contributed thereby to survival of the planet and our species.

Name the last time employers gave workers pay rises or improved conditions out of the goodness of their own hearts.
 
Bloodied52 said:
Error to equate Marxism with Stalinist Russia.
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I didn't intend to equate the two, though the latter was obviously influenced by Marx's ideas.

Bloodied52 said:
I don't class China as a Communist State, but imagine it under the previous regimes.

I am very critical of China for dropping the one Child Policy. It had slowed exponential growth rates and contributed thereby to survival of the planet and our species.

Name the last time employers gave workers pay rises or improved conditions out of the goodness of their own hearts.
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Fair enough. Regarding your last sentence, Marx probably understood the relationship between labour and capital better than most, the latter can't flourish without the former.
 
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Kummerspeck said:
I'm not going to make your argument for you. What point are you trying to make?
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That atrocities have been committed in the name of many ideologies throughout history?
 

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Kummerspeck said:
Okay. Lack of a belief in a deity isn't one of them.
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Seriously? Lack of a belief in a deity is an integral part of communism, and as stated above we know how much damage that has caused. The neocon ideology is just as bad mind you, being based on the idea that the US should use its power to "promote its values" around the world.

Anyway, my argument is that it doesn't matter whether you believe in a deity or not, people will still find things to worship. I'm in the David Foster Wallace camp on this one.



But religion is relatively benign these days. For most people it's just a way of creating meaning. It's the combination of religion and politics that is lethal.
 
RW said:
Seriously? Lack of a belief in a deity is an integral part of communism, and as stated above we know how much damage that has caused.
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Seriously. Saying that lack of a religion was one part of a governing power, therefore it was a driving reason behind the deaths that occured under that system is a terrible argument. Do you accept that every death caused by the Allies in the World Wars were a result of Christianity?
 
Kummerspeck said:
Seriously. Saying that lack of a religion was one part of a governing power, therefore it was a driving reason behind the deaths that occured under that system is a terrible argument.
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No, I'm saying that the IDEOLOGY was a cause of the deaths that occurred under that system.

Do you accept that every death caused by the Allies in the World Wars were a result of Christianity?
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The Allies were fighting AGAINST the Nazi ideology FFS. What else did you expect them to do, sit back and let Hitler conquer the rest of Europe? He'd already tried his best to exterminate one ethnic group. I'm sorry but you can't just ignore evil like that.
 
RW said:
No, I'm saying that the IDEOLOGY was a cause of the deaths that occurred under that system.
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Okay, will atheism isn't an ideology, so we're back to square one. The numbers of people who have been killed in the name of atheism is miniscule if any.

"But, but, but communism and atheism" is and always has been a s**t argument.
 
Kummerspeck said:
Okay, will atheism isn't an ideology, so we're back to square one. The numbers of people who have been killed in the name of atheism is miniscule if any.
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True, it's pretty hard to imagine anyone killing others in the name of atheism, that part I'd agree with.

I don't find "belief in God" to be a particularly meaningful concept anyway, but if it gives people meaning, then I'm cool with that. As I said, it's the mix of religion and politics that's lethal!
 
RW said:
True, it's pretty hard to imagine anyone killing others in the name of atheism, that part I'd agree with.

I don't find "belief in God" to be a particularly meaningful concept anyway, but if it gives people meaning, then I'm cool with that. As I said, it's the mix of religion and politics that's lethal!
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Meaning is such an odd concept when combined with belief in deities. Atheist's tend to use their noggins to construct realities and meaning.. Their efforts are of course rooted in the materiality of language.
 
Bloodied52 said:
Error to equate Marxism with Stalinist Russia. I don't blame Christianity for Nazism, even tho the Vatican gave tacit support.

I don't class China as a Communist State, but imagine it under the previous regimes.

I am very critical of China for dropping the one Child Policy. It had slowed exponential growth rates and contributed thereby to survival of the planet and our species.

Name the last time employers gave workers pay rises or improved conditions out of the goodness of their own hearts.
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This is simply flat out false. The Vatican could possibly have done more to stand against Nazism in its early stages but it never gave support, tacit or otherwise. Indeed the Vatican falsified passports to get Jews out of occupied states.
 
Kummerspeck said:
The argument you're about to make is and always has been an awful one. Even assuming that any atrocities committed under people who didn't believe in a God or gods did so in the name of atheism, it's dwarfed by religiously motivates violence.
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1. It's not dwarfed in any sense. The Marxist atheists killed on a scale that even surpassed the Nazis.

2. I'm not advocating, in any sense, excluding atheists from public life.
 
Ticky009 said:
Meanwhile the LNP continues to have issues with female candidates
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...-candidates-this-century-20190103-p50pdq.html
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No surprise Tickster. The Brown shirt faction running the Tories prefer their women barefoot and pregnant and it seems decades younger.

Of course they will argue it is merit based. And it is easy to the justice in that position.

Kelly is expert in climate denialism. Christensen is expert in supporting young Filipinas. Eric's Anazi is expert in his family's history as Nazis. Abbott is expert in .... Ahem ...not liking ex PM Truffles. Dutton is expert in being a multi millionaire ex Qld copper. The PM is a simultaneous interpretor.
 
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