Analysis The rebuild of Carlton and Brisbane and their future prospects

[Fadge]

... and this post sums up the Carlton threads in the main board to a tee.

Opposition poster makes s**t argument about Carlton. Carlton poster responds. Opposition makes s**t argument again. Carlton poster tells them their argument is poor. Opposition makes s**t argument for the third time, not addressing anything in any oppositional post, nor really making a case beyond "player x is s**t", "WHy didn't the blues pick up Lambert? How did you miss him?!!!", "Lobbe is a list cloggggerrrrr!!!1".

Carlton fan calls opposition poster a troll. Fadge pops up with this particular gem. Rinse, lather, repeat.

I could go into your desire to paint my perspective as 'outlandish, unrealistic, illegitimate, baseless' - I'm surprised you left off heretical, or slanderous, or outrageous - despite the fact that the claim I made was statistically based, by the metrics of goals averaged per match, and by hitouts. So, at the very least, baseless is out. I could also say that no-one has actually tried to make the counterargument to that position in any way statistically; so, the claim itself stands. So, outlandish and unrealistic is out, and so is illegitimate.

I'm also rather amused by the extent to which your posting becomes more audacious and plentiful when you have support.

... so, how about it, Fadge? You going to step upto the plate, actually commit to doing some analysis, rather than just talking from your arse as is the usual?

I find it interesting that noone other than Carlton supporters can see the 'logic' around how they are managing their list.

I suggest there is some substance in the opinions of the supporters of the other 95% of teams in the competition, given where Carlton are currently at, and where they have been for the best part of the last two decades.

You refer to other posters comments as 'shite arguments' on the basis of you being right and the majority being wrong. More than happy for you to continue to believe that, if it means we get more performances from Carlton where 2018 came from.

 

[Gethelred]

I find it interesting that noone other than Carlton supporters can see the 'logic' around how they are managing their list.

I suggest there is some substance in the opinions of the supporters of the other 95% of teams in the competition, given where Carlton are currently at, and where they have been for the best part of the last two decades.

I suggest there is too, were the arguments made in a better way.

I've said this to you before, Fadge. It isn't so much what is said, but the way it is expressed. 'Lol, Carltank is s**t, wy you trading pick 1 for Stocker?' is vastly different than 'Carlton shouldn't have traded for Stocker, it is a hugely risky move and could backfire in a huge way.'

See, different. One is lazy, one is an opinion backed up by a risk/reward argument.

You refer to other posters comments as 'shite arguments' on the basis of you being right and the majority being wrong. More than happy for you to continue to believe that, if it means we get more performances from Carlton where 2018 came from.

No, I don't.

I refer to some arguments - specifically, Lambert and Lobbe in this thread - that are indeed poor arguments, and have watched as posters have continuously used precisely the same words over and over again, as though their position on the thing was static, immutable. That is the basis of a s**t argument.

You've gotten likes out of me in the past, Fadge, for when you bother to analyse and when you actually arrive at a conclusion based on evidence. You've lost me somewhat of late, because that is not what you're doing; you're letting others make your arguments for you, and taking potshots at posters responses, liking everything that is negative to Carlton in here. You go back to doing what you were doing before, and I'll start getting along with you better; keep liking cheap/lazy shots, and I'm going to keep calling you out for it.

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

... and this post sums up the Carlton threads in the main board to a tee.

Opposition poster makes s**t argument about Carlton. Carlton poster responds. Opposition makes s**t argument again. Carlton poster tells them their argument is poor. Opposition makes s**t argument for the third time, not addressing anything in any oppositional post, nor really making a case beyond "player x is s**t", "WHy didn't the blues pick up Lambert? How did you miss him?!!!", "Lobbe is a list cloggggerrrrr!!!1".

Carlton fan calls opposition poster a troll. Fadge pops up with this particular gem. Rinse, lather, repeat.

I could go into your desire to paint my perspective as 'outlandish, unrealistic, illegitimate, baseless' - I'm surprised you left off heretical, or slanderous, or outrageous - despite the fact that the claim I made was statistically based, by the metrics of goals averaged per match, and by hitouts. So, at the very least, baseless is out. I could also say that no-one has actually tried to make the counterargument to that position in any way statistically; so, the claim itself stands. So, outlandish and unrealistic is out, and so is illegitimate.

I'm also rather amused by the extent to which your posting becomes more audacious and plentiful when you have support.

... so, how about it, Fadge? You going to step upto the plate, actually commit to doing some analysis, rather than just talking from your arse as is the usual?

Nail / Head -

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

My argument is Brisbane have added senior players who are best 22, whilst Carlton are adding senior players who are VFL quality.

No surprise that Hodge and Cameron were a much bigger influence on Brisbane than guys like Mullet, Lang, O’Shea.

You are caught up on Hodge’s individual stats....he wasn’t recruited with the expectation he would turn back the clock to 2008 Hodge.

He provided fantastic on-field coaching, helped Brisbane defense go from easily worst in the league in 2017 to just poor in 2018 and he was acknowledged by coaches by coming 8th in the BnF.

That is a roaring success in anybody’s language except yours, because his disposal average wasn’t at his best.


Brisbane had no small forward presence at all in 2017.

How many small forwards in the league avg more than 1.5 goals per game in 2018?

Brisbane identified a weakness, and filled it via trade.

Injuries happen, but Cameron kicking multiple goals in 6 games and providing a real presence up forward was a big improvement on anything they had from their small forwards in 2017.


???
Wright is one of the few Blues additions who have been a success.


It is pretty obvious that Hodge and Cameron were two best 22 players that Brisbane added.

Brisbane fans will sing both their praises about how much they helped improve the team.

meanwhile Carlton bring in guys like Mullet, O’Shea and Shaw who they already delisted after just one season...Carlton’s recruitment of ‘senior’ help for the kids has been woeful.

Multi-quote doesn't stop this from being rinse / repeat non-factual dribble.
I have already responded to each point you have repeated in this post.

 

[10571z]

Seems obvious that Carlton fans are really struggling to accept criticism in what i would rate as one of the worst lists i have seen. SOS can do no wrong as far as they are concerned. Im sure it will be validated in the coming years when they begin realizing what a mess he has made.

 

[tonygeeks]

I wonder if they would be so forgiving of some nobody list manager rather than blue blood royalty like SOS , I don't think any other team has an ex champion of the club in that position

What are the advantages of having SOS over a no connection list manager ?

I can't really think of any myself but would be interested on Blues fans opinions


On iPad using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[10571z]

I wonder if they would be so forgiving of some nobody list manager rather than blue blood royalty like SOS , I don't think any other team has an ex champion of the club in that position

What are the advantages of having SOS over a no connection list manager ?

I can't really think of any myself but would be interested on Blues fans opinions


On iPad using BigFooty.com mobile app

The fact he has 2 children on the list is one of the biggest conflicts possible.

 

[doppleganger]

Multi-quote doesn't stop this from being rinse / repeat non-factual dribble.
I have already responded to each point you have repeated in this post.

Yep Hodge didn’t average as many disposals as he had previously = poor output.

Cameron ‘only’ avg 1.5 goals per game = poor output.

Pity they were both walk up starts in Brisbane’s best 22, filled clear weaknesses, and had a great impact on an improving team according to Brisbane fans.

That is clever list management.

Or they could have traded for VFL level players and delisted them after a year like Carlton did!

 

[Hannabal]

It's pretty incredible really.

Bolton has taken Carlton to 7 wins, 6 wins, and 2 wins.

They haven't reached 100 points in a game in 55 matches and just had their worst season in VFL/AFL history. Yet Carlton supporters seem happy to a man. And you rarely hear a bad word about Bolton from them.

Long may he continue at Carlton. And let the joy of their fans wash over him.

 

[Monkey King]

You fail to read properly

I listed 5 senior players who Brisbane have traded for who are best 22 quality

Hodge, C.Cameron, Adams, Neale, McCarthy
IMO this is the big difference between the two rebuilds.

The Lions have been adding quality senior players to support their kids.

Meanwhile, Carlton have been adding VFL quality senior players and delisting them a couple of seasons later.

Both have been stock piling multiple high draft picks, but Brisbane are supporting them and trying to win games of footy.

You make some reasonable points. Carlton have definitely turned more to the draft, hanging on to their early picks and trading back in for other first rounders, while the Lions have been happy to trade a couple of theirs away for quality players like Neale and Cameron. Carlton’s trade currency has generally been spent as later picks on value trades for additional young players, rather than quality senior players, and the mature players they have recruited were bargain basements either used to grease a cheap trade or as failed stop gaps.

The player examples are a bit odd though. I wouldn’t classify McCarthy as any more of a quality senior prospect than say Fasolo. Adams has shown quality, but I’m confident Carlton will get more out of a guy like Lachie Plowman. Cameron’s a good get, so is McGovern. Hodge is a unique short term situation that’s worked out really well. Neale is a fantastic get and the only real standout moving forward. Carlton tried for top quality with Shiel but missed, whisper is they will try this again at the end of the year.

 

[Gethelred]

More to the stupid in this thread: the only time non Carlton supporters bring up Brisbane at all is to hit Carlton with them.

Anyone wanting to discuss Brisbane's rebuild in progress, how they're shaping for next year, and how far you think they could go?

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

Yep Hodge didn’t average as many disposals as he had previously = poor output.

Cameron ‘only’ avg 1.5 goals per game = poor output.

Pity they were both walk up starts in Brisbane’s best 22, filled clear weaknesses, and had a great impact on an improving team according to Brisbane fans.

That is clever list management.

Or they could have traded for VFL level players and delisted them after a year like Carlton did!

Luke Bruest
Josh Thomas
Jamie Cripps
Robbie Grey
Jade Gresham
Jake Melksham
Mark LeCras
Eddie Betts
Willie Rioli
Alex Neal Bullen
Anthony McDonald Tipungwuti
Jason Castagna
Dayne Zorko
Tom Papley
Michael Walters
Chad Wingard
Lewis Taylor
Sam Grey
Matthew Wright
Hayden Ballantyne
Zac Langdon
Orazio Fantasia
Liam Ryan
Paul Puopolo
Cameron Rayner
Mark Baguley
Dan Butler
Jack Newnes
Jeff Garlett

 

[Brutalitops]

Im not obsessed with gambling; i just think it gives a unbiased outlook as opposed to us footy fans

That is incredibly myopic if thats your justification. The betting market is primarily influenced by footy fans. Like, do you know how odds are calculated and why they go up and down over time?

 

[10571z]

It's pretty incredible really.

Bolton has taken Carlton to 7 wins, 6 wins, and 2 wins.

They haven't reached 100 points in a game in 55 matches and just had their worst season in VFL/AFL history. Yet Carlton supporters seem happy to a man. And you rarely hear a bad word about Bolton from them.

Long may he continue at Carlton. And let the joy of their fans wash over him.

Its not even about wins and losses. Its the way they play.

Brisbane you can see what they are trying to do but simply dont have the cattle just yet. its exciting to see them kicking decent scores and being in most games. The kids play with confidence and direction.

Carlton on the other hand play a shocking style. Low scoring while heavy scores against.

 

[doppleganger]

You make some reasonable points. Carlton have definitely turned more to the draft, hanging on to their early picks and trading back in for other first rounders, while the Lions have been happy to trade a couple of theirs away for quality players like Neale and Cameron. Carlton’s trade currency has generally been spent as later picks on value trades for additional young players, rather than quality senior players, and the mature players they have recruited were bargain basements either used to grease a cheap trade or as failed stop gaps.

Yep.

No point trying to compare the bevy of top draft picks both teams have collected.

Rayner looks great as does Dow.
Witherden a stud, and Blues happy with Fisher.
Hipwood and C.Curnow could both be anything

And on it would go.

But IMO the difference between builds is Carlton just bringing in the failed stop gaps as you call them.

For some reason, plenty of your Carlton brethren don’t like somebody saying they think bringing in a glut of VFL quality players and delisting them again in one or two years is poor list management.

The player examples are a bit odd though. I wouldn’t classify McCarthy as any more of a quality senior prospect than say Fasolo. Adams has shown quality, but I’m confident Carlton will get more out of a guy like Lachie Plowman. Cameron’s a good get, so is McGovern. Hodge is a unique short term situation that’s worked out really well. Neale is a fantastic get and the only real standout moving forward. Carlton tried for top quality with Shiel but missed, whisper is they will try this again at the end of the year.

I simply took the 5 senior guys listed in the AFL article as best 22 for Brisbane.

They didn’t include Lyons for some reason, so either did I.

For what it’s worth I would actually rate Lyons and Newman above both McCarthy and Fas.

McCarthy can never get on the park, and Fas was playing VFL last year because he doesn’t work hard enough off the ball and defensively...

But if I was a Carlton fan I would be much happier with the senior players brought in this year compared to what they had done in the last couple of off-seasons.

 

[Jeremias]

But 17 other clubs didn't rate him in the top 20.

Love it when this pops up from time to time.

You have no idea where Stocker was rated by 17 other clubs.

For all you know 17 clubs could’ve rated him at 10.

If Stockers a good player it's a good trade , nothing more to say about it really

There’s a bit more to it than that, but yeah, if Stocker becomes the player we think he might, there won’t be too many worrying about the pick swap it took to get him.

Haters gonna hate and trolls gonna troll though, I guess.

 

[Marcel Proust]

That is incredibly myopic if thats your justification.

perhaps

The betting market is primarily influenced by footy fans

ok

Like, do you know how odds are calculated and why they go up and down over time?

i have a fair idea

 

[Blue and Silver]

Personal theory.

Carlton has take Richmond's place in the AFL zeitgeist.

Where Richmond was endlessly teased as a once successful club on hard times, now Carlton is.

 

[LordLucifer]

Seems obvious that Carlton fans are really struggling to accept criticism in what i would rate as one of the worst lists i have seen. SOS can do no wrong as far as they are concerned. Im sure it will be validated in the coming years when they begin realizing what a mess he has made.

I'm more than content to accept criticism if and when it is warranted. However, there are way too many mass generalisations in this thread from opposition supporters without considering some actual facts.

Just prior to Bolton being recruited, Silvagni made a presentation to the Carlton board on the state of the playing list at that time and it was reportedly an absolutely scathing review. It was after that review that the Blues administration decided to go down the "ground zero" path instead of the standard Carlton practice of enticing a couple of messiahs to join in an attempt to appease the supporter base.

Just as an aside, Carlton have been lambasted from pillar to post about the recruiting of high priced coaches & players, most of it was totally warranted too. Instead of papering over the cracks, we have been continually putting a band-aid on a massive gash.

This time around, the club has embarked on the most dramatic & methodical approach to building what they hope will eventually be a premiership winning list, ever seen in AFL history. Years & years of woeful recruiting & inept player development coupled with a total reluctance to accept and work within the new era of drafts & salary caps came to a massive head with our first ever wooden spoon some years ago. Since then the club still hadn't embraced the new world order of restraints until this latest approach which we knew was going to be a painful & time consuming process but was completely necessary.

Somewhere else in this thread, someone has listed all of the Carlton players on the list at the time that Bolton & Silvagni came together. If you can find that list, please read it with both eyes & your mind wide open and then tell me if it is better or worse than what we have right now ?? I'm sure you will agree that something had to give because that list was destined to be in the football cellar forever if things didn't change.

It wasn't that long ago Melbourne were a complete basketcase with no hope in sight, look at them now, with some smart drafting & trading plus some effective player development, they are on the cusp of multiple assaults on the flag now that their players have matured.

Even your mob, the Pies were all over the place whilst Buckley cleaned out the rat-pack and created his own list and playing style. Now look at them, played in a GF and only just got pipped.

Also, don't forget, GWS were getting belted from all corners in their first couple of years due to the youth on their list, years down the track we find their players aren't boys any more, they are men with AFL ready bodies and are a Final Four contender for the next few years.

So, have we got a good list right now, of course we do. Are they going to win 12-14 games this year ?? No chance, they are still young boys physically developing like the GWS lads did over the past 5-6 years.

In a couple of years time when they have graduated to mature senior players, and Bolton has taken his trainer wheels off as well, only then can anyone make an astute assessment of where we are. Naturally I have high hopes but there is a sense of caution too, I've seen this happen at other clubs only to fall over when least expected.

Keep a really s**t list that is a certain wooden spooner or wipe the slate clean and start again with a focus on the top end of the draft, what would appear to be the better course of action here ??

I've had a gutful of every man and his dog kicking Carlton right now, I'd be doing it too if we had not done anything at all to address our problems.

Feel free to lay the boots in on anything that is pre-Silvagni & Bolton, we thoroughly deserve it.

However, for *s sake, can you all take a chill pill for another year or two and see what transpires. Unless you are Nostradamus' son or daughter, you have no ******* clue as to what will actually happen at Carlton.

I'm confident we will turn it all around but it takes time to come back to normality from as far away as we have been.

If any opposition poster can't acknowledge that, then they are either a total deadshit with no understanding of list management or a complete & utter s**t-stirrer who gets their jollys out of being a boring keyboard braggard.

Either way, they still look like a massive tool !!!

 

[Fadge]

Carlton's worst pain is still yet to come, imho. They have a core of experienced players who are all playing well, and they're still only sitting at 5-12. The rebuild will involve gradually replacing these players, and that will take another 2-3 years of drafting well. It's possible they can do that, but having high draft picks is no guarantee they new players will be as good as the older ones (as a Melbourne supporter I know this well).

Carlton's best and most experienced players are in career best form in 2017 (at least statistically), and they're still a bottom four side. Consider:

- Bryce Gibbs (career high disposals 2017)
- Marc Murphy (career high disposals 2017)
- Kade Simpson (career 2nd high disposals 2017)
- Matthew Kreuzer (career high disposals, marks, hitouts 2017)
- Sam Docherty (career high everything 2017)

They've also been resilient with injuries this year. Those 5 and Cripps (their 6 most important players) have missed a total of 3 games this year, and they've lost all 3, which lncludes a 90-point drubbing and a 5 goal loss to the bottom side. When Murphy went down last year, they went 2-10 in their last 12 games without him, compared to 5-5 before that. Fact is that they are highly dependent on these players for their current level of competitiveness, and so far as I can tell they've had at least 5 of the 6 players on the park in every game over the past 2 seasons, for a 12-27 record. Docherty and Cripps will obviously be around for a while yet, but the other 4 will be difficult to replace once they start declining / retiring.

The same applies even for the experienced lesser names around them:

- Ed Curnow (career 2nd high disposals)
- Levi Casboult (career high disposals, goals)
- Liam Jones (career high disposals, marks)
- Matthew Wright (career high goals, marks)

Basically their experienced guys - half the team - cannot be expected to play any better. The young guys coming through (many of whom haven't been drafted yet) don't only need to improve, they need to improve faster than these 28-30 year olds go into decline for Carlton's W/L ratio to improve. Given how comparatively well these older guys are playing now, it's more likely than not that any progress made by the younger players will be cancelled out by the decline in their older players, which is more likely than not to see Carlton stagnate for the next few seasons. Carlton's progress hasn't been built on the back of young players, it's been on the back of experienced players playing at the top of their game. (And progress, it must be stressed again, here means a 5-12 W/L record.)

Like I said, the real pain hasn't arrived yet. Give me Brisbane's list any day of the week.

We won't go backwards from this year, guarantee it.

Seriously you are just trolling.

Dumb

For those Carlton supporters crying out for informed analysis and rationale to support our not so positive opinions on Carlton's future, I hereby provide to you Exhibit A, Your Honour.

This neutral poster (Melbourne supporter) went to great lengths to provide rationale behind their assessment in July 2017, only to receive the following examples of responses from Carlton supporters.

I acknowledge I have selected parts of longer responses, but nonetheless the responses are indeed direct quotes.

So, Carlton supporters, don't go crying foul if you think this thread has degenerated into an unfair opportunity for non-believers to kick Carlton whilst they are down. It seems that regardless of how much thought and energy the impartials amongst us put into our posts, we are all met with the same responses.

 

[LordLucifer]

I am scared for carlton fans. I feel they are a good chance to be behind Gold coast this year. Not only will they suffer another catastrophic season but lose out on pick 1 also. Adelaide are laughing.

Be as scared as you like...…

You are not that far ahead of us and have spent a number of years in the cellar too so it's massively hypocritical to start handing out advice when you haven't achieved a goddam thing for well over a decade either.

 

[10571z]

I'm more than content to accept criticism if and when it is warranted. However, there are way too many mass generalisations in this thread from opposition supporters without considering some actual facts.

Just prior to Bolton being recruited, Silvagni made a presentation to the Carlton board on the state of the playing list at that time and it was reportedly an absolutely scathing review. It was after that review that the Blues administration decided to go down the "ground zero" path instead of the standard Carlton practice of enticing a couple of messiahs to join in an attempt to appease the supporter base.

Just as an aside, Carlton have been lambasted from pillar to post about the recruiting of high priced coaches & players, most of it was totally warranted too. Instead of papering over the cracks, we have been continually putting a band-aid on a massive gash.

This time around, the club has embarked on the most dramatic & methodical approach to building what they hope will eventually be a premiership winning list, ever seen in AFL history. Years & years of woeful & recruiting & inept player development coupled with a total reluctance to accept and work within the new era of drafts & salary caps came to a massive head with our first ever wooden spoon some years ago. Since then the club still hadn't embraced the new world order of restraints until this latest approach which we knew was going to be a painful & time consuming process but was completely necessary.

Somewhere else in this thread, someone has listed all of the Carlton players on the list at the time that Bolton & Silvagni came together. If you can find that list, please read it with both eyes & your mind wide open and then tell me if it is better or worse than what we have right now ?? I'm sure you will agree that something had to give because that list was destined to be in the football cellar forever if things didn't change.

It wasn't that long ago Melbourne were a complete basketcase with no hope in sight, look at them now, with some smart drafting & trading plus some effective player development, they are on the cusp of multiple assaults on the flag now that their players have matured.

Even your mob, the Pies were all over the place whilst Buckley cleaned out the rat-pack and created his own list and playing style. Now look at them, played in a GF and only just got pipped.

Also, don't forget, GWS were getting belted from all corners in their first couple of years due to the youth on their list, years down the track we find their players aren't boys any more, they are men with AFL ready bodies and are a Final Four contender for the next few years.

So, have we got a good list right now, of course we do. Are they going to win 12-14 games this year ?? No chance, they are still young boys physically developing like the GWS lads did over the past 5-6 years.

In a couple of years time when they have graduated to mature senior players, and Bolton has taken his trainer wheels off as well, only then can anyone make an astute assessment of where we are. Naturally I have high hopes but there is a sense of caution too, I've seen this happen at other clubs only to fall over when least expected.

Keep a really s**t list that is a certain wooden spooner or wipe the slate clean and start again with a focus on the top end of the draft, what would appear to be the better course of action here ??

I've had a gutful of every man and his dog kicking Carlton right now, I'd be doing it too if we had not done anything at all to address our problems.

Feel free to lay the boots in on anything that is pre-Silvagni & Bolton, we thoroughly deserve it.

However, for ****s sake, can you all take a chill pill for another year or two and see what transpires. Unless you are Nostradamus' son or daughter, you have no ******* clue as to what will actually happen at Carlton.

I'm confident we will turn it all around but it takes time to come back to normality from as far away as we have been.

If any opposition poster can't acknowledge that, then they are either a total deadshit with no understanding of list management or a complete & utter s**t-stirrer who gets their jollys out of being a boring keyboard braggard.

Either way, they still look like a massive tool !!!

Thats the way you see it. I see SOS trying to replicate what was done at GWS without the insane draft concessions.

He has brought in what nearly a dozen GWS kids for what? Maybe 1/2 who look AFL standard.

This year Fasolo and Bugg end up on the list. Fasolo is the complete opposite of what a modern forward should be. Doesn't chase, zero pressure, bit of a sook and bobs up inconsistently for a bag of goals. Bugg has been at 2 clubs who both played in the finals and was delisted he doesn't look up to it for both his attitude and skill.

Sure Carlton started from a shoddy base but IMO the route of bottoming out throwing a bunch of "kids" to the wolves and hoping they become good does't seem like a model which has worked recently.

Pies and Richmond both came from 13th to make a grand final. Carlton finished 1 spot lower than Richmond. Bolton won 7 games in his first year they finished 1 spot below Richmond who went onto win a flag.



It'll be interesting to see how patient the club is because Bolton will be under extreme pressure next year unless results follow. The fact SOS' kids are on the list honestly. Id love to know the process of their reviews and how that'll bode if delisted.

 

[Fadge]

You are being mean ... think of the poor Collingwood supporters trying to work out who to barrack for in that game

Oh I am not *worried* about them per se ... more like an evil glint in the eye at the thought of them eating their collective livers at the prospect

Arguing about giving Bucks another extension

Exhibit B, Your Honour.

Pages 2 and 3 of this thread - not sure what the topic has to do with Collingwood, but some Carlton supporters seemed to think it appropriate.

 

[Fadge]

The fact SOS' kids are on the list honestly. Id love to know the process of their reviews and how that'll bode if delisted.

I'm surprised it has taken this long in the thread before this has been brought up.

SOS cannot possibly be in the role when any decision is made not to offer a contract to one of his kids.

I think they are classic examples of players who wouldn't be on an AFL list if not for their name. Carlton met a mischievous bid for Jack from Essendon, and picked up Ben with their last selection after no one else made a bid for him. What need do either of them fill at Carlton, apart from the romantic notion of a third generation in the system?

 

[LordLucifer]

Thats the way you see it. I see SOS trying to replicate what was done at GWS without the insane draft concessions.

He has brought in what nearly a dozen GWS kids for what? Maybe 1/2 who look AFL standard.

SOS is trying to replicate the GWS model ??

I'm struggling to understand where the fault is in accumulating top end talent via the draft (ie. top 10 draftees).

Also, how many clubs have milked the massive pool of talent that GWS had ?? If there are clubs who haven't, it's not like they haven't tried to. SOS has relationships with all of them so it stands to reason that he was able to entice them over. Besides, we could give them plenty of senior games instead of them waiting in a long queue at GWS.

If you get rid of a player you deem isn't up to it and replace him with a player who is better than him, you are improving the list. Each time SOS has bought in a player (not including the older retreads like Mullet & co), he has improved the list. There is bound to be the odd failure when you work in such big numbers too, every club has their share of failures, history tells us that no club has had a perfect record in player recruitment.

If some of these GWS don't cut it, they will be cut, that is a given. We aren't going to sit idle and hope they make it, in fact every player on our list is under the microscope with KPI's to achieve annually. Replacements will be brought in if & when some fall over. This is not some rare & unique formula either, it should happen at other clubs too.

Thing is, in the past, we have hung on to players for far too long in the faint hope they will magically transform into a Brownlow medallist. Well those days are gone forever now, the club is far more ruthless in its pursuits.

I don't care where we recruit them from, if they can play and are better than an existing player on our list, we want them.