Opinion The Fab 4 of the Big 3 Dynasty's: It's time for some serious analysis.

[Procrastinator35]

As a Hawks fan, I'm getting pretty sick & tired of posters in the Oz football & historical analysis threads, shitting on my club & it's players by their omission.

So for that reason, here's an objective comparison between 4 Hawks with their Brisbane & Geelong counter-parts....For whom so many believe we don't rate against.

Also....I won't be including Healy's BS AA awards as any kind of an objective measure here, as the Hawks had a very similar record as the Cats over the same comparative eras (Cats: 2007-2011 to Hawks: 2011-2015) & yet half the AA nominations....Which is complete bullshit..

Hawthorn Fab 4: Mitchell, Hodge, Burgoyne & Lewis:

2011-2015: Played 126; Won 99, Lost 27....Finals Played 16. Won 12 Lost 4.
All 4 players have played 300 games plus.
All 4 players have 4 premierships each.
9 Best & fairest between them.
2 Norm Smiths
1 Brownlow....Sam Mitchell 227 Brownlow votes. 3rd most in history.....Hodge 145 Votes & 3 time premiership Captain.

Brisbane Fab 4: Black, Voss, Ackermanis & Lappin:

2000-2004: Played 125, Won 88.5, Lost 36.5....Finals Played 15. Won 12 Lost 3.
Only 2 players have played over 300 games plus.
All 4 players have 3 premierships each.
11 Best & Fairest between them.
1 Brownlow.....Simon Black 184 Brownlow votes. 9th most in history.....Voss 150 Votes & 3 time premiership Captain.
1 Norm Smith

Geelong Fab 4: Ablett, Selwood, Johnson & Bartel:

2007-2011: Played 125, Won 105, Lost 20....Finals Played 15. Won 12 Lost 3
Only 2 players have played over 300 games plus
3 Players have played in 3 Premierships each, with Ablett 2.
9 Best & Fairest between them.
3 Brownlow....Gary Ablett Jnr 239 Brownlow votes. 2nd most in history....Selwood with 189 votes.
2 Norm Smiths

Conclusion: The Lions don't actually stack-up against the Cats & Hawks H&A records, due to their poor 2000....The Cats average 1 more win than the Hawks over the 5 year comparison.....Which in no way accounts for 2x as many AA's.....However, all 3 clubs rate the same across the finals in their respective eras.....Quite incredible really

My list means that Mitchell, Black & Ablett come in first rank for those 3 sides.
All of Hodge, Voss & Selwood are very comparable as leaders.
Burgoyne, Johnston & Ackermanis are the 3 sides x-factors.
The 4th musketeer is Lewis, Bartel & Lappin.

Conclusion: The Hawks measure up equally as well as the other 2 juggernauts....Plus all 4 Hawks have an extra premiership in their kit bag to boot, which gives them the decisive edge here. While the Cats slightly superior H&A record - over the 5 year journey - gives them the edge in the comparative dynasty stakes.

It's clearly: Geelong, Hawthorn then Brisbane a distant 3rd for the club eras.

As for who has the best Fab 4?.....Hawthorn's all have 4 premierships each.....Sorry peeps, it's Hawthorn, Brisbane then the Cats there, with a 12 -9 -8. record.

Meaning that the Hawks in 2nd & First place come in first, followed by the Cats with a first & third, then the Lions with a second & third.

Oh well......It appears the Big Footy frat has it all arse-ways about.

 

[Wild Bill]

Bris - Hawks - Cats

Pre compromised drafts with the Suns & GWS taking the top end talent and diluting the draft pools.

Bris mid and Forward lines were amazing. Bris also won 3 flags playing interstate. It’s close but Bris for me - powerful.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Bris - Hawks - Cats

Pre compromised drafts with the Suns & GWS taking the top end talent and diluting the draft pools.

Bris mid and Forward lines were amazing. Bris also won 3 flags playing interstate. It’s close but Bris for me - powerful.

All the stats would suggest otherwise.....That Brisbane are in fact a well distanced third in line.....They also got lucky against the Pies in 2002, when Rocca's clear goal, was ruled a behind.....Even Barney admitted that.

Sorry, but the maths doesn't lie muchacho.

Finally, alls they had to do was to beat Collingwood twice, who have the worst GF record of any mob bar the Saints.....Hardly note-worthy.

 

[Wild Bill]

All the stats would suggest otherwise.....That Brisbane are in fact a well distanced third in line.....They also got lucky against the Pies in 2002, when Rocca's clear goal, was ruled a behind.....Even Barney admitted that.

Sorry, but the maths doesn't lie muchacho.

Finally, alls they had to do was to beat Collingwood twice, who have the worst GF record of any mob bar the Saints.....Hardly note-worthy.

3 interstate sides in your 3 peat. That is hardly note worthy. Freo have the worst GF record in the comp.

Bris had the best forward line and midfield. Cats had the best defence. I’m taking the Lions at 1.

 

[Procrastinator35]

3 interstate sides in your 3 peat. That is hardly note worthy. Freo have the worst GF record in the comp.

Bris had the best forward line and midfield. Cats had the best defence. I’m taking the Lions at 1.

LOL....How can Freo have the worst GF record, when they hadn't even played in one as yet?....The Pies are running at 33% off the back of 47 Grand Finals.....The Saints are at 1 win from 6, going at 17%.

Brisbane's Forward-line was: A.McGrath, J.Brown, R.Copeland, C.McRae, A.Lynch, D.Bradshaw….They also played Pyke, Power, White, B.Scott & Acker through there.
Geelong's forward-line was: J.Bartel, C.Mooney, S.Johnston, P.Chapman, T.Hawkins, M.Stokes...They also played Selwood, N.Ablett, Podsiadly, Rooke, Varcoe & Kelly through there.

Hawthorn's forward-line was: L.Breust, L.Franklin, J.Gunston, C.Rioli, J.Roughead, P.Puopolo…..They also played Hale, McEvoy, Suckling, Hodge, Burgoyne & Schoey through there.

Copeland & McGrath are no match for either of Gunston & Breust or Chapman & Johnston.....And Rioli has McCrae covered every day of the week.
Franklin compares favourably to Brown, and Roughy is the equal to either of Bradshaw or Lynch.

Conclusion:You are speaking complete shite.

 

[Wild Bill]

LOL....How can Freo have the worst GF record, when they hadn't even played in one as yet?....The Pies are running at 33% off the back of 47 Grand Finals.....The Saints are at 1 win from 6, going at 17%.

Brisbane's Forward-line was: A.McGrath, J.Brown, R.Copeland, C.McRae, A.Lynch, D.Bradshaw….They also played Pyke, Power, White, B.Scott & Acker through there.
Geelong's forward-line was: J.Bartel, C.Mooney, S.Johnston, P.Chapman, T.Hawkins, M.Stokes...They also played Selwood, N.Ablett, Podsiadly, Rooke, Varcoe & Kelly through there.

Hawthorn's forward-line was: L.Breust, L.Franklin, J.Gunston, C.Rioli, J.Roughead, P.Puopolo…..They also played Hale, McEvoy, Suckling, Hodge, Burgoyne & Schoey through there.

Copeland & McGrath are no match for either of Gunston & Breust or Chapman & Johnston.....And Rioli has McCrae covered every day of the week.
Franklin compares favourably to Brown, and Roughy is the equal to either of Bradshaw or Lynch.

Conclusion:You are speaking complete shite.

Freo have a 100% grand final loss percentage.

What does it matter what the Pies did in the 1930s when discussing 2000s??

Really poor effort to try and boost your team getting lucky playing 3 interstate sides.

I’m taking the Lions - they won theirs without a diluted draft when the AFL expanded. Understand your bias - like most thing hawks. I wouldn’t be the only neutral taking the powerful Lions side.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Freo have a 100% grand final loss percentage.

Thanxs to us.....Yes.....They're batting at 0 for 1.

How does that compare to 1 from 6, or 16 from 47 on exposed form?

I also note your lack or agry-bargy on the comparative forward-lines......Oh Yes.....The Hawks is way superior to both the Cats & Brions, as any neutral or person with an ounce of footy nous would know.

 

[Wild Bill]

Thanxs to us.....Yes.....They're batting at 0 for 1.

How does that compare to 1 from 6, or 16 from 47 on exposed form?

I also note your lack or agry-bargy on the comparative forward-lines......Oh Yes.....The Hawks is way superior to both the Cats & Brions, as any neutral or person with an ounce of footy nous would know.

Buddy only played in 1 or the 3 peat. Remove him and you fall even further behind. Their midfield was amazing and only other that got close was the Eagles with Judd and co.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Buddy only played in 1 or the 3 peat. Remove him and you fall even further behind. Their midfield was amazing and only other that got close was the Eagles with Judd and co.

No....Buds played in 2 0f the 4.....Remembering that it's the Dynasty's we're comparing here, as all 3 clubs played in a losing grand-final also.

He also played in our 2008 Premiership....So he's actually 3 for 5 on the Grand Final representation stakes.

And even without the Budweiser....We'd still have Breust, Gunston, Rioli & Roughead….With Hale & Puopolo making up the 6.....Still more than any match for the Brions.

Whose midfield are you speaking of?.....The Cats or the Brions?.....Have you not been paying any attention to my Fabo 4 comparisons whatsoever?

I dunno…...It's in one ear & out the other with you.

 

[Wild Bill]

No....Buds played in 2 0f the 4.....Remembering that it's the Dynasty's we're comparing here, as all 3 clubs played in a losing grand-final also.

He also played in our 2008 Premiership....So he's actually 3 for 5 on the Grand Final representation stakes.

And even without the Budweiser....We'd still have Breust, Gunston, Rioli & Roughead….With Hale & Puopolo making up the 6.....Still more than any match for the Brions.

Whose midfield are you speaking of?.....The Cats or the Brions?.....Have you not been paying any attention to my Fabo 4 comparisons whatsoever?

I dunno…...It's in one ear & out the other with you.

Luke Power has kicked more than 50 goals in a year but you have him out of the forward 6.

Bris is the number 1 imo. Of course you will disagree. But hey there is only 1 bias poster in this debate.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Luke Power has kicked more than 50 goals in a year but you have him out of the forward 6.

Bris is the number 1 imo. Of course you will disagree. But hey there is only 1 bias poster in this debate.

Power was a very good player, but he's not in Breust's class as a forward.....As a midfielder he was an excellent number 5 fill-in & could compare rather well with Brad Sewell. Although he was far more skilful than Sewell.

Isaac Smith & James Kelly also made for excellent wingman & I'm not sure that Brizzy has a player to match either of them for that class across the middle....Notting is simply not up to them.

 

[Wild Bill]

Power was a very good player, but he's not in Breust's class as a forward.....As a midfielder he was an excellent number 5 fill-in & could compare rather well with Brad Sewell. Although he was far more skilful than Sewell.

Isaac Smith & James Kelly also made for excellent wingman & I'm not sure that Brizzy has a player to match either of them for that class across the middle....Notting is simply not up to them.

Aka and Pike lined up on the wing in 2 of the 3 flags. Aka was much better than the two players you named and Pike was a very good player built for finals footy. Not simply up to them is just another poor bias post.

With the Hawks on the slide are you trying to keep them relevant? The glory days are over. It’s time to move on.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Aka and Pike lined up on the wing in 2 of the 3 flags. Aka was much better than the two players you named and Pike was a very good player built for finals footy. Not simply up to them is just another poor bias post.

With the Hawks on the slide are you trying to keep them relevant? The glory days are over. It’s time to move on.

Oh?....More often not it was Lappin & Acker on the wings, who actually informed half of the Fab 4 in the first place. With Pyke as a roaming utility, filling in gaps both forwards & back.

Jordan Lewis also played out on the wing in Grand Finals & his record is the equal to that of Lappin…..Smith compares favourably to Pyke....Burgoyne & Hodge both played midfield, forward & back with equal aplomb.

Throwing players around does you no favours by attempting to twist the fabo 4 comparisons in your favour.

Also....This thread is my creation.....If you're tired of the debate, then it is you who should 'move on'.....The thread title is after all, all about dynasty's.

If you'd like, I suggest a comparison of defences next in order to see how the Hawks stack-up by comparison.....I reckon you'll find we are equally as good aas the other 2 sides there too.

 

[Wild Bill]

Oh?....More often not it was Lappin & Acker on the wings, who actually informed half of the Fab 4 in the first place. With Pyke as a roaming utility, filling in gaps both forwards & back.

Jordan Lewis also played out on the wing in Grand Finals & his record is the equal to that of Lappin…..Smith compares favourably to Pyke....Burgoyne & Hodge both played midfield, forward & back with equal aplomb.

Throwing players around does you no favours by attempting to twist the fabo 4 comparisons in your favour.

Also....This thread is my creation.....If you're tired of the debate, then it is you who should 'move on'.....The thread title is after all, all about dynasty's.

If you'd like, I suggest a comparison of defences next in order to see how the Hawks stack-up by comparison.....I reckon you'll find we are equally as good aas the other 2 sides there too.

Lappin was a much better player than Lewis. Unless Lewis can get another 3 all Australians then it’s a no contest win for Lappin.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Lappin was a much better player than Lewis. Unless Lewis can get another 3 all Australians then it’s a no contest win for Lappin.

I've already mentioned the illegitimate nature of the AA's as any kind of an objective guide or measure in this here thread.

You don't read so good.

Lewis is easily of the calibre of Lappin & Bartel…..He won a Best & Fairest in a Premiership year & like Lappin, has kicked over 150+ goal's throughout a storied 300+ game career.....He also has I more premiership than Lappin…..He was also a big game player & was superb in 2013 against Freo & then 2014 & 2015 also.

 

[Kanga87]

As a Hawks fan, I'm getting pretty sick & tired of posters in the Oz football & historical analysis threads, shitting on my club & it's players by their omission.

So for that reason, here's an objective comparison between 4 Hawks with their Brisbane & Geelong counter-parts....For whom so many believe we don't rate against.

Also....I won't be including Healy's BS AA awards as any kind of an objective measure here, as the Hawks had a very similar record as the Cats over the same comparative eras (Cats: 2007-2011 to Hawks: 2011-2015) & yet half the AA nominations....Which is complete bullshit..

Hawthorn Fab 4: Mitchell, Hodge, Burgoyne & Lewis:

2011-2015: Played 126; Won 99, Lost 27....Finals Played 16. Won 12 Lost 4.
All 4 players have played 300 games plus.
All 4 players have 4 premierships each.
9 Best & fairest between them.
2 Norm Smiths
1 Brownlow....Sam Mitchell 227 Brownlow votes. 3rd most in history.....Hodge 145 Votes & 3 time premiership Captain.

Brisbane Fab 4: Black, Voss, Ackermanis & Lappin:

2000-2004: Played 125, Won 88.5, Lost 36.5....Finals Played 15. Won 12 Lost 3.
Only 2 players have played over 300 games plus.
All 4 players have 3 premierships each.
11 Best & Fairest between them.
1 Brownlow.....Simon Black 184 Brownlow votes. 9th most in history.....Voss 150 Votes & 3 time premiership Captain.
1 Norm Smith

Geelong Fab 4: Ablett, Selwood, Johnson & Bartel:

2007-2011: Played 125, Won 105, Lost 20....Finals Played 15. Won 12 Lost 3
Only 2 players have played over 300 games plus
3 Players have played in 3 Premierships each, with Ablett 2.
9 Best & Fairest between them.
3 Brownlow....Gary Ablett Jnr 239 Brownlow votes. 2nd most in history....Selwood with 189 votes.
2 Norm Smiths

Conclusion: The Lions don't actually stack-up against the Cats & Hawks H&A records, due to their poor 2000....The Cats average 1 more win than the Hawks over the 5 year comparison.....Which in no way accounts for 2x as many AA's.....However, all 3 clubs rate the same across the finals in their respective eras.....Quite incredible really

My list means that Mitchell, Black & Ablett come in first rank for those 3 sides.
All of Hodge, Voss & Selwood are very comparable as leaders.
Burgoyne, Johnston & Ackermanis are the 3 sides x-factors.
The 4th musketeer is Lewis, Bartel & Lappin.

Conclusion: The Hawks measure up equally as well as the other 2 juggernauts....Plus all 4 Hawks have an extra premiership in their kit bag to boot, which gives them the decisive edge here. While the Cats slightly superior H&A record - over the 5 year journey - gives them the edge in the comparative dynasty stakes.

It's clearly: Geelong, Hawthorn then Brisbane a distant 3rd for the club eras.

As for who has the best Fab 4?.....Hawthorn's all have 4 premierships each.....Sorry peeps, it's Hawthorn, Brisbane then the Cats there, with a 12 -9 -8. record.

Meaning that the Hawks in 2nd & First place come in first, followed by the Cats with a first & third, then the Lions with a second & third.

Oh well......It appears the Big Footy frat has it all arse-ways about.

Lol your thread has been exceptional, only one poster other than yourself. No one has bothered to reply in a month lol. Talking fab 4’s, Hawthorn’s variety has nothing on Brisbane (1), West Coast (2), or Geelong (3) post 2000.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Lol your thread has been exceptional, only one poster other than yourself. No one has bothered to reply in a month lol. Talking fab 4’s, Hawthorn’s variety has nothing on Brisbane (1), West Coast (2), or Geelong (3) post 2000.

And yet you felt the need to contribute & reply anyway.....In spite of yourself, or so it seems....And hiding behind an alias account no less.

 

[OffTheBit]

You guys still touching yourselves in public, get over it

 

[Procrastinator35]

You guys still touching yourselves in public, get over it

I'm sorry that history doesn't depict the Bears triple in too good a light, by comparison with the Hawks exceptional dynasty.

It's become more than clear & self-evident that neutral posters opting for the Brions Fab 4, are doing so out of envy & jelly alone.

 

[Wild Bill]

Lions not only the best but the most brutal. The other two didn’t have the same level of intimidation.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Lions not only the best but the most brutal. The other two didn’t have the same level of intimidation.

And yet their overall record during the height of their dynasty, pails by comparison with the other 2.....Go figure.

 

[Wild Bill]

And yet their overall record during the height of their dynasty, pails by comparison with the other 2.....Go figure.

3 peat? That’s a great record.

How many games did they win against Suns and GWS? The 2 worst sides in the last 20 years.

 

[Procrastinator35]

3 peat? That’s a great record.

How many games did they win against Suns and GWS? The 2 worst sides in the last 20 years.

Um, GWS have played finals these past 3 seasons & finished 11th in 2015 with an 11/11 record.....Both joined the comp in 2011 & 2012 respectively.

We only played the Gold Coast once in 2012, 2013, 2015 & 2016....We have also only played GWS once every year ever since their inception.

Once again, these are just poor excuses you're throwing out there....We also had the number 1ranked toughest draw for all clubs from 2011-2015 inclusive.

 

[Wild Bill]

Um, GWS have played finals these past 3 seasons & finished 11th in 2015 with an 11/11 record.....Both joined the comp in 2011 & 2012 respectively.

We only played the Gold Coast once in 2012, 2013, 2015 & 2016....We have also only played GWS once every year ever since their inception.

Once again, these are just poor excuses you're throwing out there....We also had the number 1ranked toughest draw for all clubs from 2011-2015 inclusive.

Right so you got 2 gifted games a year and big % boost. Handy.

Lions did it without gimme games or diluted draft pools which thinnned the talent out making teams improvement much harder.

Anyway you aren’t changing my opinion that the brutal Lions were the best of the 3.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Right so you got 2 gifted games a year and big % boost. Handy.

Lions did it without gimme games or diluted draft pools which thinnned the talent out making teams improvement much harder.

Anyway you aren’t changing my opinion that the brutal Lions were the best of the 3.

There were plenty of crap teams during the Brions era also, where 4 points were a gimme....West Coast, St.Kilda & Fremantle in 2001, all with 5 wins or less.....Carlton & St.Kilda in 2002, Footscray, Carlton & Melbourne in 2003 & Footscray, Richmond & Hawthorn in 2004.

So your argument is a nonsense......And your opinion holds very little weight, where the stats & the facts of the matter go to expose just how deficient the Brions were, when measured up against the Hawks & Cats dynasty's, on a H & A winning ratio % scale.

Not even in the same ball-park.....Where the Brions equalled the Hawks & Cats, was at the crunch end of the year during finals, where all 3 dynasty's are almost inseparable in comparison to each other.