Society/Culture Jordan B Peterson

[Snake_Baker]

There's a reason why there are different disciplines. Being a psychologist doesn't grant him expertise in everything human.

He pushes some nonsense about neo marxism or cultural marxism. These are political theories, and his lack of expertise shows.

Cultural Marxism is built upon the foundation that traditional culture is, rightly or wrongly, a source of oppression.

Behavioral psychology is the study of minds and behavior in the context micro and/or macro conditioning, and it includes cultural conditioning.

There is no rational basis to preclude someone like Peterson from that discussion. In fact, he is more qualified than most to take part in that discussion.

 

[its free real estate]

It confuses me a bit why it's considered to be cultural Marxism when the supposed aspects people criticise appear to be a function of modern liberalism and quite dissimilar to, as you said, anything Marx wrote about.

It’s not.

A function of modern liberalism. Modern the key distinction.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

Cultural Marxism is built upon the foundation that traditional culture is, rightly or wrongly, a source of oppression.

Behavioral psychology is the study of minds and behavior in the context micro and/or macro conditioning, and it includes cultural conditioning.

There is no rational basis to preclude someone like Peterson from that discussion. In fact, he is more qualified than most to take part in that discussion.

CM is the theory that a very select group of people have been conditioning people to reject traditional culture. The people cited number less than 10, and no evidence can be offered that connects their attempts to anything that has happened.

The theory is a political project, and it's what Peterson is buying into.

 

[its free real estate]

Marx called for the abolition of the family as a means of achieving revolution. What is this if not “cultural”?

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

It’s not.

A function of modern liberalism. Modern the key distinction.

Without skipping too far ahead, isn't this a failing of capitalism then?

The end game to a lot this is always seemingly related to how corporations and politicians shove things down peoples' throats. This can't happen without profit-seeking entities and politicians who require funding.

 

[Snake_Baker]

CM is the theory that a very select group of people have been conditioning people to reject traditional culture. The people cited number less than 10, and no evidence can be offered that connects their attempts to anything that has happened.

In an historical Marxist context it referred to the controllers of producition and capital, which counted significantly more than 10 people, then and now.

The theory is a political project, and it's what Peterson is buying into.

It's a fundamental psychological driving force behind a significant historical set of beliefs.

All politics are group psychology put in to action. You're going to have to find a more credible way to dismiss him.

 

[its free real estate]

Without skipping too far ahead, isn't this a failing of capitalism then?

The end game to a lot this is always seemingly related to how corporations and politicians shove things down peoples' throats. This can't happen without profit-seeking entities and politicians who require funding.

That’s why it’s cultural Marxism, not full blown economic Marxism.

 

[Snake_Baker]

That’s why it’s cultural Marxism, not full blown economic Marxism.

Yes!

It's political tactics, and what are political tactics if they are not psychological in nature?

The entire premise of this rebuttal is ridiculous.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

Marx called for the abolition of the family as a means of achieving revolution. What is this if not “cultural”?

I've always interpreted this as the abolition of the inheritence of private capital rather than having a cultural aim.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

That’s why it’s cultural Marxism, not full blown economic Marxism.

OK, so your point is that Marxists realised they can't overthrow capitalism as a whole, so they've decided to infiltrate it by using the flaws of capitalism to their advantage?

 

[Snake_Baker]

I've always interpreted this as the abolition of the inheritence of private capital rather than having a cultural aim..

The accumulation of capital inheritance arises from an existing cultural psychology in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

In an historical Marxist context it referred to the controllers of producition and capital, which counted significantly more than 10 people, then and now.

That's economic Marxism, not this other stuff.

Its a fundamental psychological driving force behind a significant historical set of beliefs.

All politics are group psychology put in to action. You're going to have to find a more credible way to dismiss him.

Let me address this way. CM is not being pushed by his his discipline. It hasn't been analysed, tested, rebuked or categorised. It can't be, because it's not coherent.

The impact of actual totalitarianism can, because there are people who've lived under objectively despotic governments. CM is a grab-bag of everything a particular person doesn't like.

 

[its free real estate]

I've always interpreted this as the abolition of the inheritence of private capital rather than having a cultural aim..

A Marxist wants all allegiances subsumed to class consciousness, it’s the only way it works. Therefore the family in any sense must be destroyed. And the community, and the nation, and all traditions. Only then will we be “free”.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

The accumulation of capital inheritance arises from an existing cultural psychology in the first place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've never even referenced psychology lol

 

[its free real estate]

OK, so your point is that Marxists realised they can't overthrow capitalism as a whole, so they've decided to infiltrate it by using the flaws of capitalism to their advantage?

More that you can’t break economic bonds until you break social bonds. The worker must be fully alienated to revolt. Marxists, cultural and otherwise, want to accelerate the alienation.

 

[Snake_Baker]

That's economic Marxism, not this other stuff.

Let me address this way. CM is not being pushed by his his discipline. It hasn't been analysed, tested, rebuked or categorised. It can't be, because it's not coherent.

The impact of actual totalitarianism can, because there are people who've lived under objectively despotic governments. CM is a grab-bag of everything a particular person doesn't like.

He's referring to a model of group psychology that is best explained in a contemporary setting as having it's origins in Marxist revolutionary consensus.

He referring to the model of thought (i.e. the psychology), not actual beret wearing revolutionaries waiting in the jungle to liberate the workers of the world.

 

[Snake_Baker]

I've never even referenced psychology lol

All good.

My overall point is that politics and psychology are intimately woven on all levels and dismissing Peterson based upon dry political and/or economic grounds completely misses the point.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

He's referring to a model of group psychology that is best explained in a contemporary setting as having it's origins in Marxist revolutionary consensus.

And what is it's actual impact?

 

[Snake_Baker]

More that you can’t break economic bonds until you break social bonds. The worker must be fully alienated to revolt. Marxists, cultural and otherwise, want to accelerate the alienation.

AGAIN, YES!

........and what is required to attain these goals?

Models of behavioral psychology.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

All good.

My overall point is that politics and psychology are intimately woven on all levels and dismissing Peterson based upon dry political and/or economic grounds completely misses the point.

Ok, but the very concept of cultural marxism is an explicitly political one. And to my knowledge, not one other psychologist has found it a worthwhile topic to be analysed.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

More that you can’t break economic bonds until you break social bonds. The worker must be fully alienated to revolt. Marxists, cultural and otherwise, want to accelerate the alienation.

The issue with this is that the people who are feeling alienated are typically driven further right and begin hate minorities more.

So if this is the idea behind cultural Marxism, why would they try to push people further away from Marxism?

 

[Snake_Baker]

And what is it's actual impact?

I don't get your question. Do you want me to start posting a history of Marxist struggle?

 

[its free real estate]

The issue with this is that the people who are feeling alienated are typically driven further right and begin hate minorities more.

So if this is the idea behind cultural Marxism, why would they try to push people further away from Marxism?

Marxists have never let the unintended consequences and failures of their ideas keep them from continually attempting them.

 

[Scallop Industry Thug]

A Marxist wants all allegiances subsumed to class consciousness, it’s the only way it works. Therefore the family in any sense must be destroyed. And the community, and the nation, and all traditions. Only then will we be “free”.

If one wanted to break the bonds of nation and family, they should adopt neo-liberalism.

 

[Snake_Baker]

Ok, but the very concept of cultural marxism is an explicitly political one. And to my knowledge, not one other psychologist has found it a worthwhile topic to be analysed.

Of course it is mate, but it cannot be separated by the driving force beneath it, or it has no political rigor! It falls over before it gets off the ground.

Hey, look, I get that you don't like elements of his musings, I DON'T LIKE EVERYTHING ABOUT HIS MUSINGS, but you either bring him down from within his own discipline or you have to begrudgingly accept his position and modify your own. This is what intelligent people do, and whilst I understand you are relatively younger than many who post in this discussion, and somewhat more idealistic as a result, you are intelligent. I certainly wouldn't get frustrated by your position on this issue if I thought you were stupid.